The Unitarian Universalists: EVERYONE reunites with the Divine = no 'Hell'.

reply to post by NthOther

A local congregation near me recently had on its website a sermon given by its pastor (or whatever they call them), wherein she calls for church members to attend an upcoming pro-gay marriage rally. Say what you will about that (separate) issue, I just don't like my religion mixed up in politics any which way. It makes me question their true motivation.

It appears, Nth, that others have your qualms about mixing religion with political activism (besides myself);
it turns out there is a branch of the Unitarians that separated away from the more politically active one;

The American Unitarian Conference (AUC) is a religious organization and a missionary and publication society which serves the needs of individual Unitarian believers.

It was founded in 2000 by several Unitarian Universalists who felt that the Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA) had become too theologically liberal and too political.

They decided their mission was to promote classical Unitarianism, which they argued as being based on Christian beliefs though not solely confined by them. They also hoped their organization would be of interest to non-Christians who embrace generic or philosophical theism and Deism.

American Unitarian Conference
(emboldened part by me, as this is how it would fit my beliefs)
I should note also, that Christians CAN BE and ARE part of Unitarian Universalists' membership at large - but there is no "requirement" to believe in the Trinity, or in Christ as Savior. There is no "creed", which to me, is refreshing.

The "Creed" was what tripped me up as a kid; I couldn't believe it, no matter how much they wanted me to, or how often I said, "We believe...." in unison with the rest of the congregation.

reply to post by apydomis

There are two reasons that people act, and it can be boiled down to selfishness and compassion. Are you pointing out that I might be fearful in life because you have compassion for your fellow human being, or because you are selfishly deflecting your own fears and ignorance onto me?

Is calling me "shallow" and "selfish" a compassionate act?

I am far from ignorant; and I have strong compassion for my fellow human beings. I have compassion for YOUR suffering; and I know enough about NDEs, as well as of other religious traditions besides the "hellfire and brimstone" ones, that I have come to some sort of "conclusions."

Hell is a construct of the mind; if you suffered in your NDE, then it indicates (to me) that you feel guilt, and shame, for being how you are. If God made you (and all of us) the way you are, why would he punish you for doing just that?

My aim in these boards is to help believers who operate out of FEAR to let go of that fear; to think outside that indoctrination which lurks always below the surface that "you are not good enough."

You have free will...
and are expected to use it.

I have been reading Ballou's Treatise this morning. While its composition is archaic (over 200 years old in tone and vocabulary and syntax), its message is clear.

The tales of Satan and Hell are just that; tales. But I won't challenge you to read it. Probably you are too afraid to even entertain such 'blasphemous' reasoning and intelligent discussion of outrageous claims made by preachers.

As for your friend's demons, well, if you had an upsetting NDE, and he is plagued by demons, but I am not...
then what do you make of that??

That somehow I am responsible for your suffering, by being compassionate? I would look to the people who put the notions of you being "flawed", "unworthy of salvation", and a "born sinner" because of a story that is by no means "literal" (Adam and Eve and the Serpect), rather than myself, to understand your frame of mind.

Either you are operating out of fear, or you are not. Either you are behaving in a moral way, or you are not.
It's none of my business what your life's choices have been that led you to a horrific NDE; perhaps taking a personal inventory of your life is in order.

Here is a relevant passage by Ballou:

The belief that the great Jehovah was offended with his creatures to that degree that nothing but the death of Christ, or the endless misery of mankind, could appease his anger, is an idea that has done more injury to the Christian religion than the writings of all its opposers, for many centuries.

The error has been fatal to the life and spirit of the religion of Christ in our world; all those principles which are to be dreaded by men, have been believed to exist in God; and professors have been molded into the image of their Deity, and become more cruel than the uncultivated savage!

A persecuting inquisition is a lively representation of the God which professed Christians have believed in ever since the apostacy.

It is every day's practice to represent the Almighty so offended with man, that he employs his infinite mind in devising unspeakable tortures, as retaliations on those with whom he is offended.

Those ideas have so obscured the whole nature of God from us, that the capacious religion of the human mind has been darkened by the almost impenetrable cloud; even the tender charities of nature have been frozen with such tenets, and the natural friendship common to human society, has, in a thousand instances, been driven from the walks of man.

But, says the reader, is it likely that persecution ever rose from men's believing, that God was an enemy to wicked man? Undoubtedly; for had all professors of Christianity believed that God had compassion on the ignorant and those who are out of the way, how could they have persecuted those whom they believe in error?

But, with contrary views, those who professed to believe in Christ, who professed to be the real disciples of him who taught his disciples to love their enemies, have been the fomenters of persecution; they have persecuted even unto death, those who could not believe all the absurdities in orthodox creeds.

Why be hostile towards me? Why call me names like Shallow, Selfish, Ignorant??
What good does that do for your soul, your peace of mind, and your own life?

I offer hope; you labor under the terror of unreasonable, cruel, and eternal torture.

Suit yourself. I find no reason to live in terror. I am the way I was made, by whatever agent or cause. I do my best to help others. Do you? If you want to dismiss me and my ideas, do so on your own conscience, and expect a life of alienation from all that is here for us to enjoy. You want to suffer? Have at it.

reply to post by wildtimes

I've done a bit more reading on it, particularly Hosea Ballou's Treatise on the nature and origins of Sin. His point is that An All-Knowing God KNOWS what will happen, what everyone will do, and therefore, we can't be blamed for acting in a way he KNEW we would. The UUs work on two principles: One, the Unitarian, states that there is no "Trinity" - (and there are several different 'branches' of UU 'practice'). The other, the Universalist, states that ALL RELIGIONS have truth in them; and/or ALL people will eventually reunite with the creator. Ballou, in particular, has theories on Satan (Lucifer) as the "bad guy" -

We are Created in the Image, therefore we should rightly accept responsibility for our willfully chosen deeds in the Good Conscience that does speak within when we transgress away from Virtue. He Tests our Measure of Love in His Spirit and rightly so.

Of course there are elements of truth in religions and that is exactly how devils choose to operate successfully in snaring, granting enough truth to reel one in with the cunning weaving of corruption into a distorted tapestry, just as in the Garden and when the devil used scripture to tempt Christ to sin. Humanity was Positively and Lovingly Instructed from the beginning with all Good Catering Provided for the means of our further spiritual evolution and we rebelled, pure and simple---and we abide here in the dominion of those we allowed to influence us in Ignorance and chosen Separation from a Righteous Design and Plan.

Why should the blame and shame not be on us for our own rebellion in sin, granted the will for such, just as the fallen angels were that were Originally Allotted to be our Parental Overseers at Council.

It needs to be understood that there is much Divine patience, compassion, Calling, and mercy before any Righteous Wrath in Measure for Justice is applied for the grossly sin loving unrepentant souls in `too far gone`states of wickedness.

The Sacrifice in Christ is a Bridge for our Salvation and cunning devils now desire to rob souls of their final Gifted hope for Redemption at this very very late hour when much evil is going to manifest as a result of long mounted sin and the cosmic gearings that will see to the Harvest of the wheat and tares.

Both a healthy love and a fear of our Maker is wisdom.

reply to post by PrimeLight

that is exactly how devils choose to operate successfully in snaring, granting enough truth to reel one in with the cunning weaving of corruption into a distorted tapestry, just as in the Garden and when the devil used scripture to tempt Christ to sin. Humanity was Positively and Lovingly Instructed from the beginning with all Good Catering Provided for the means of our further spiritual evolution and we rebelled,

See, this is what I disagree with. "We"? Who is "we", exactly?

Again, I apologize for not being more receptive, but I don't believe in "devils"....
nor do I believe that we are created with "Original Sin."

We are created as the Divine created us....
and if you subscribe to 'omniscience' of the Divinity, then that entity knows EXACTLY what we would do, when, and how.

It makes no sense that a perfect Deity would WILLFULLY create flawed creatures, knowing all, and then design an eternal torment for them.

That is NOT a "loving, merciful" God - that is a monster.

Did you, PrimeLight, look at the links I provided? Or, are you averse to even considering that you might be mistaken due to harsh, fearful indoctrination, imposed guilt, shame, unworthiness, and self-loathing??

If you are averse to looking into other theologies/philosophies....I would ask, WHY?

reply to post by wildtimes

See, this is what I disagree with. "We"? Who is "we", exactly?

Our souls in this fallen, separated state aside from the Mansions of the Heaven realms.

Those who sincerely and hungrily seek Foundational Truth will find, those who knock on the doors in a love and yearning for that Spirit of Loving Creation will have it opened to them by the Holy Spirit, not by the workings of our own minds that often seek out what is appealing to the senses. My expressions are not at all based on intellect or the world`s measure of reasoning---I have simply been Shown too much after having long knocked and been Answered and have experienced too many personal encounters to reject and align with the things you do. Hence I did not need to delve into your links, for what you quoted was enough to reject the spirit operating within that group. Once the Holy Spirit operates more strongly in one`s path, it quickly Alerts to Guide. This is a mystery to those who have yet to join the Fold in Christ (not in organised religion, long perverted by devils against the consciousness of mankind).

We do not have to agree on anything, that is not why I express the things I do, it is merely to steer. The rest is up to you my friend. My testimony will also touch on those entities known as `demons`, the very elements that Christ spent much of His Ministry casting out of the multitudes. Those truths too are most unappealing to most who have not been more obviously targeted for their faithlessness, already in a commission of snaring in all they have rejected of the Truth willfully.

reply to post by PrimeLight

Those who sincerely and hungrily seek Foundational Truth will find, those who knock on the doors in a love and yearning for that Spirit of Loving Creation will have it opened to them by the Holy Spirit,

This I whole-heartedly agree with.

So....how is it that you might imagine that I have somehow fallen too far?

I knock, in love and yearning....
I listen; I hungrily seek the Foundational Truth.

So, I will find? I will have the door opened for me?

But, you just implied that I am condemned and fallen beyond redemption because I don't subscribe to a "hellfire and brimstone" Wrathful God? What parent would condemn their child FOREVER for messing up one time???

Did you, PrimeLight, read (or even LOOK AT) the sources I provided? This is not my "original idea."
The links I provided are from over 200 years ago, by thinkers and philosophers who were just as troubled and "unconvinced" as I am....who were trying to find a reasonable explanation for the FEAR and MISERY imposed by dogma. And, justly, dismiss it as hogwash (let alone Logical Fallacies).

How do you justify this angry, wrathful, unforgiving God, then?? When it is clear that we are created THE WAY WE ARE....it is hard to feel guilty for the sins of others;
I don't believe the Adam/Eve story, nor do I believe in original sin...

As of yet, you have failed to provide as well a thought-out essay as the excerpts from Ballou that I have posted....have you read them?

If not, why not??

reply to post by wildtimes

As of yet, you have failed to provide as well a thought-out essay as the excerpts from Ballou that I have posted....have you read them? If not, why not??

Because Ballou is a man uninspired unlike Christ and the Ordained prophets of our Father.

I am not here with desire to debate or provide essays against confused in rebellion ways of men that you lead me to. I do not at all take interest in their thoughts and ways in their rejecting of the things they do not love or cleave to for understanding Foundation, void of strong faith in leaning with full trust in the Manifestation of the Word Guided to in Recognition via the Holy Spirit. And so be it, for I am prepared for the great falling away of the unrepentant and weak in faith, long prophesied of in the Bible texts manifesting True. Praise to you Holy Father.

Our Creator Provides Understandings to those He deems Worthy of Rewarding with sincere and faithful obedience to the Commands, also rejected by mankind en mass. So go forth if you will and discover how to be counted moreso Worthy of Blessing in Virtue to the Good Will of Instruction. Surrender your own desires to Him and delve moreso into the Bible and not the words and thoughts of men who will deliver straight to their prisons of thought void of Inspiration.
This is the kind of food I nourish my soul with in a Leading...tip of the Rock. So many mysteries to uncover still within His Living Word delivered, yet abused by wicked men to their own ends.
www.biblegateway.com...

But, you just implied that I am condemned and fallen beyond redemption because I don't subscribe to a "hellfire and brimstone" Wrathful God? What parent would condemn their child FOREVER for messing up one time???

I did no such thing actually, though you may interpret at will for distortion. You also ignored my words that I do not subscribe to eternal torments and yet you keep applying that to me in your argument.

Did you, PrimeLight, read (or even LOOK AT) the sources I provided? This is not my "original idea."

If you read my posts a little more carefully you will have your reply on those matters also.

How do you justify this angry, wrathful, unforgiving God, then?? When it is clear that we are created THE WAY WE ARE....it is hard to feel guilty for the sins of others; I don't believe the Adam/Eve story, nor do I believe in original sin

Unforgiving you exclaim... seems you do need to knock moreso. He Knows who rejects His Righteous Ways and Inspired Words often misunderstood with all our hearts sin adhering desires toward Ignore-ance-- and yet so many want to consider themselves Worthy of Outpouring in all that they reject in the Truth.

This is not meant to offend, though it is inevitable that the dead cannot reside within the houses of the Living. Be gradually Restored and come moreso to Life with that Trust in Christ if you will, first by faith on that stepping stone toward Deliverance. My own too is not guaranteed.

reply to post by PrimeLight


All right, then.
Thanks for your feedback.

See you when we get there.

reply to post by wildtimes

More of the spiritual mysteries are destined to manifest in the physical. Much Truth prophesied will come to the fore to convict and convert the unfaithful in Calling and the Appointed deceptions of the imitators (antichrist forces) too will emerge that will work to usurp Christ`s Glory in Sacrifice. Many will be astonished by the things that will befall this earth, though the conditioning has been occurring for a very long time to prepare the mass consciousness.

I pray that we are all Granted the eyes to see what we require for our means of Redemption in a Divine Mercy, no matter how uncomfortable it may seem at first for our realisation in Spiritual`awakenings`. In any case, we are in the midst of uncomfortable and unavoidable challenging times.

You are a seeker, that I do gauge and if you were not, then I would not have felt urged to devote an effort at all in a discourse.

Blessings to you and I pray for Outpourings for all us children here in a Testing.

For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
Luke 8:17

reply to post by wildtimes


How is trying to get people to give up there faith and hope helping them?

You're doing a disservice hoping to get people to give up on faith, and you wrap up a nasty evil intention in a neat little package claiming "freedom from terror", which is what Satan does also....


Remember, "Did God say you will die if you eat that fruit? no, you will NOT surely die!"....

I know it didn't LITERALLY happen, but the allegorical meaning is whats important - Satan (the evil spirit inside and all around humanity) whispers sweet lies and nothings into our hearts and we listen, to our own demise, because evil always comes wrapped up in a pretty package.....

reply to post by godlover25

How is trying to get people to give up there faith and hope helping them?

You're doing a disservice hoping to get people to give up on faith, and you wrap up a nasty evil intention in a neat little package claiming "freedom from terror", which is what Satan does also....

I have no idea if you are a parent, sir, but if ALL your religion does is give you faith and hope, then fine.

If, however, your religion is grounded in ABUSE, TERROR, and CONTROL, then .... not fine!!! Not fine at all.
Especially if you are a parent.
Watch for a new thread which illustrates my concerns.

reply to post by godlover25

Satan (the evil spirit inside and all around humanity) whispers sweet lies and nothings into our hearts and we listen, to our own demise, because evil always comes wrapped up in a pretty package.....

Sounds a whole lot like religion and Christianity to me. That "pretty package" is equivalent to Christianity's promise of eternal bliss in heaven. All you have to do give up is critical thought and reason and just BELIEVE!

We see where that belief system has gotten us so far.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Indeed. Just today I was looking at an interesting "chart" comparing the world religions. The only ones that preach Hell are the Christians and the Muslims.

The Big Religion Chart

You (and others) might find it interesting. Even the Jews don't have the "hell" thing going on.

What happened????
Mistranslation, and propaganda, for control, invented by MEN. THAT'S WHAT.

Wildtimes ... two things ..

1st - excellent thread.

2nd - I was supposed to go to the Buddhist temple Wednesday and I was supposed to go see the Uniterians this week as well but I've injured my foot (walking the dog in the dark at 5AM, twisted it or something) so I'm 'couched' for a while. When I get better, I'll reschedule. (looking forward to it!!)

There is more than one type of Universalist and they are very different in their"creeds" from Christian Universalist(later known as the Universalist General Convention) to Unitarian Universalist.Though the apostles clearly wrote of salvation for all mankind .... as a creed it was not from the apostles since they had no creeds nor were they "Christians".It was a "name" of derision others called them.They had none of the religious church hierarchy and ritual of doctrines and creeds that was latter formed by the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestants.

The core of Christian Universalism is still the doctrines of men albeit a million light years closer to the Truth than the "other "Christianity's. The fact is ...the sole qualification for salvation is being alive because EVERYTHING is being or will be saved /delivered with zero doctrines or creeds to be "believed" to cause it.

Salvation is not something to be believed for it to be enacted anymore than believing you will be born caused conception.Salvation is 100% the work of the Creator God.The "perception" of salvation is manifold and infinite.It's the stages (ages) of "entering in " to the Kingdom of God.It's an infinite growing process caused 100% by God not an event caused by religious piety.

The basis of universalism is correct ..all will be saved.That doesn't mean all will enter into the Kingdom of God in the physical realm.We have no choice in the matter as to how,what,when, where or why.The less(none) the focus is on "the 5 W's of a "method" of being is saved the less there will be division and strife among people through delusion.It's a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

reply to post by Rex282


Thanks, much, Rex.
Appreciate your input here. Your posts are always very thoughtful, wise, and knowledgeable.

Cheers!

reply to post by wildtimes


I like this Hosea Ballou, never heard of him before, he has three major points absolutely correct, and for the time frame, he was way ahead of the curve they are:

1)Uses God's proper English name.
2)Knew the Trinity was false.
3)Knew Hellfire was false.

Astounding really for the time.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I'm not sure what you mean by "for the time frame." He wrote the Treatise on Atonement in 1805 - just after the American Revolutionary War and independence. His contemporaries were the founding fathers, many of whom also disbelieved in the Trinitarian religions and the anthropomorphized "God the Father" that Christians envision.

Thomas Paine is one of my favorites. It was the "Age of Reason" -

The Age of Reason; Being an Investigation of True and Fabulous Theology is a pamphlet, written by a British and American revolutionary Thomas Paine, that challenges institutionalized religion and the legitimacy of the Bible, the central text of Christianity. Published in three parts in 1794, 1795, and 1807, it was a bestseller in the United States, where it caused a short-lived deistic revival.

British audiences, however, fearing increased political radicalism as a result of the French Revolution, received it with more hostility. The Age of Reason presents common deistic arguments; for example, it highlights what Paine saw as corruption of the Christian Church and criticizes its efforts to acquire political power. Paine advocates reason in the place of revelation, leading him to reject miracles and to view the Bible as an ordinary piece of literature rather than as a divinely inspired text. It promotes natural religion and argues for the existence of a creator-God.

Most of Paine's arguments had long been available to the educated elite, but by presenting them in an engaging and irreverent style, he made deism appealing and accessible to a mass audience. The book was also inexpensive, putting it within the reach of a large number of buyers.

Fearing the spread of what they viewed as potentially revolutionary ideas, the British government prosecuted printers and booksellers who tried to publish and distribute it. Paine nevertheless inspired and guided many British freethinkers of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

Interesting it says that most of his ideas had "long been available to the educated elite." I'd like to look into that more. Thanks for the 'new thesis' suggestion!

(unfortunately it was also the dawn of the "Industrial Age" which is when mankind really got busy with pillaging and exploiting resources over here (human AND non-human).

One thing that bugs me is that so many Americans don't understand (or forgot), that our founding fathers were NOT Trinitarian Protestants setting up a theocracy.

But I'm glad you like Ballou!! I do, too!!

reply to post by wildtimes


Thanks for reminding me, that as independent and highly intelligent men the founding fathers of America mostly did not believe in the Trinity, they were not bound to old dogma. Yet over 200 years later this dogma continues to be debated by many Christians. In fact those that don't believe it are in the minority today, and I am ok with that because of what Jesus said of professed Christians in Matthew chapter 7.
Those that get it right would be in the minority.

wildtimes
reply to post by Rex282

 

Thanks, much, Rex.
Appreciate your input here. Your posts are always very thoughtful, wise, and knowledgeable.

Cheers!

Thanks Wildtimes .....however I think it is mostly common sense which is not to common when it comes to belief in hell.There is no good reason for anyone to believe in it ......especially God! The punishment of eternal hell(if it were true) would serve no purpose to change anyone beneficially.It is all detriment.

The worst "real" true detriment is ..believing in it!! Fortunately it's only a temporary condition.It's like an inoculation where the disease is part of the cure.Those that are afflicted by it cannot know they are afflicted ...that is the major symptom of the disease.I have much empathy for them and prefer to be as far away from their "dark cloud" as possible.