Catholic Hatred. (Impossible Thread, Episode #2)

adjensen

SevenThunders
reply to post by charles1952

 

I've read it. It's Church of England propaganda.

I have read it also. He mentions Jews and Muslims in that and also Roman Christians. I am still trying to figure out if the first martyr mentioned (besides Stephen) was real. Her name was Perpetua. I don't know if she was just legend, but Foxe does begin with Romans killing Christians, which we do know did happen.

Also read some Martin Malachi, a now deceased catholic priest.

Didn't Malachi Martin also appear a lot on Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell?

I believe that Charles1952 has accurately demonstrated that the percentage of pedophiles among the Roman Catholic priesthood is below that of the general population, so your claim is invalid.

Regarding sex scandals, I stated in my first post about it that it happens in every religion. The most disconcerting to me is the preachers from Protestant churches who bash Catholics never address the sex abuse within their own churches.

I think it's only fair from the Protestant position to expose sex abuse in Protestant churches and then take the criticism of their churches. It's not right to force Charles1952 to examine it without regard to what is happening in other places. Sex abuse is a human problem, not a religious problem. I tried not to be involved in that type of discussion, because it places Charles1952 in a defensive position, that is unfair for him. I hope people understand what I am saying here, unless Charles1952 is allowed to mention sex abuse among all churches, then it is an unbalanced discussion.

WarminIndy
Didn't Malachi Martin also appear a lot on Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell?

Yes, and on one episode, he was singing the praises of Hal Lindsey, of all people. That's sign enough for me that Martin was an idiot.

Regarding sex scandals, I stated in my first post about it that it happens in every religion.

Yes it does, because perverts are opportunists who become pastors to gain access to kids (well, they did, it's pretty well impossible for that thing to happen today will all of the safeguards in place.) That's also why they become teachers, Boy Scout troop leaders, sports coaches, and so on.

adjensen

WarminIndy
Didn't Malachi Martin also appear a lot on Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell?

Yes, and on one episode, he was singing the praise of Hal Lindsey, of all people. That's sign enough for me that Martin was an idiot.

I still don't watch The Hal Lindsey Report on tv. I mean come on, hasn't the world ended yet these past 30 years?
That's why people don't believe us when we talk about the imminent return of Jesus Christ, they've heard it all their lives with kook preachers forecasting days and years because all the signs are there. People stopped believing in the return of Christ.

Yes it does, because perverts are opportunists who become pastors to gain access to kids (well, they did, it's pretty well impossible for that thing to happen today will all of the safeguards in place.) That's also why they become teachers, Boy Scout troop leaders, sports coaches, and so on.

I don't know how Pope Francis is going to make a difference if he manages to do away with the celibacy vows for priests. At one time, some of them took vows of silence and we see how well that worked out. No celibacy vows will not make a difference, pedophiles are married to women. I don't think the celibacy vows are what makes a homosexual or a pedophile. Even Buddhist monks and nuns have celibacy vows, it's not just a Catholic thing. Sometimes I wish it were a requirement for some of the pastors I have seen. Some of these Protestant preachers are lecherous and flirty. Here is one Protestant preacher that I find completely insane and does not represent true Pentecostalism at all...



As someone who grew up in a Pentecostal church, this is nothing I ever saw in my church. But if people believe they are going to get gold magic pixie dust sprinkled on their heads, then they have every right to believe that. But when preachers like Todd Bentley go around hitting and kicking people in the congregation, then he needs to be arrested for assault and battery.

People have a problem with Transubstantiation, but no problem with their preacher trading truth from the Bible for a demonstration of some spiritual movement, without even thinking about where the power is coming from.

Todd Bentley was also arrested in Canada for sexually abusing children.
Todd Bentley Sex Abuse Scandal

I have no use for preachers like him and he's just one of many out there.

reply to post by littled16

Dear littled16,

I'm so grateful that you found the thread. Let me tell you what I'm trying to do here. There have been a number of threads in which some posters expressed serious hatred of the Church. Even if I wasn't a Catholic. I'd wonder "How can a long running Christian Church be as bad as they claim?" I certainly couldn't get that angry at Methodists, Baptists, or any one else. (All right, the jury's still out on Islam.)

I was hoping that the people who hated Catholicism would stop by, and discuss why they felt that way. Catholics could try to explain, and perhaps the anger could be reduced. I'm a big fan of eliminating hatred. That's all I was hoping to do.

Thanks for visiting,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Well I was raised Catholic, and I understand it well. I though now consider myself Christian, not Catholic really. I don't like the Vatican really or all the man made rules, rituals, and ideas that are not Biblical. I do though think the individual churches with in the Catholic church and the mass itself is good overall. Some how people seem to thing Catholic mass is worshiping Mary or something, when that is not true. At its heart the Catholic mass still praises God and Jesus our Messiah, and that is the bottom line of what is most important.

I find the attack on Catholics is wrong, and need to look at what they are doing in creating division in the "Church", the body. Is that what Jesus would want? Yes pointing things out that are wrong and not in line with God's word is a good thing, but to say they are not Christian and attack like rabid dogs is most definitely wrong. I suggest they look at themselves if they are really following Christ or are just holy rollers like the Pharisees pointing fingers and taking a high ground as if they are some how better or closer to our Lord.

reply to post by SevenThunders

Dear SevenThunders,

I don't think we've met before, glad to make your acquaintance.

When I went looking for Foxe's book, I discovered that in it's original form, the thing was huge with about four times the pages of the Bible. I'm sorry, but I'm 61 years old, I'm not sure I have the time to read it.

The opinions of the reviewers I checked seemed to say that the events actually happened, but that Foxe would play up the Anti-Catholic elements and leave out things which might show that it wasn't the Church's fault. The other thing that made be wonder about it was that the martyrs went back to Nero, so I would guess that very few of the martyrs in his book were Protestant victims of the Church.

I'm confused by your statement:

The catholic church has slaughtered millions of christians over the years.

How was that figure obtained? The best estimate I've seen for the Inquisition is less than 10,000 people, and a proportion of those were people pretending to be Christians (Conversos). Multiple millions? I'd really like to know how they did that, how else do I learn?

They are a pseudo-christian cult that employs a form of paganism in their idolatrous worship of Mary and the saints and the worship of icons and statues.

There's a lot there. Does it help if I say I don't know how they are "pusedo-christian," or a "cult?" I'd like a little clarification of what you mean by those terms.

And while you're explaining terms, would you explain what you mean by "worship?" I made a post a little while back about Catholics praying to Mary and the Saints, but the Church forbids worshipping them.

Malachi Martin is a fascinating man. I wonder if his mind changed in the final years of his life. His books are described as "thinly-veiled fiction," and he wrote about the threat to the Church from Satanic forces. I like his books a lot, and have several. I would expect that the Church would be a target of Satan, but we have Jesus' assurance that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Think, would The DaVinci Code have worked if it was written about Anglicans, or Presbyterians.

Satan runs the Catholic Church? Sorry, I don't see it.

The fact that homosexuals and pedophiles flock to the priesthood should be a cause for alarm right there.

If you'd be so kind, would you go back a little and look at my discussion of the sex scandal? There was less abuse committed by priest than by men in general, and less than by school teachers.

The Church has instituted new psychological screening tests to keep people who aren't suited for the priesthood, away from the seminaries. That includes, of course, men attracted to minors.

No, I have no love for the catholic church and neither did any of America's christian forefathers.

It's fine with me if you don't love the Church. What I'm suggesting is that it is not as bad as you think, and that it's members are your brother and sister Christians, called to God and his service. Let's walk together as friends, not enemies.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by celticdog

Dear celticdog,

You've issued quite a challenge.

By their fruits you will know them. After knowing all this and you still want to be a catholic I don't know what to say.

Fair enough, let's see what "all this" is. Maybe I won't want to be a Catholic anymore.

There are good people in all religions it is the leaders of these religions that we tend to hate more so.

And the leaders are people, too. Many are good, some are not. Some are good before they attain high office and then succumb to temptation. It happens. I don't see that it is any worse in the Catholic Church, in fact I think the leadership is better than what might be expected.

two Babylon's by Rev Alexander Hislop . The Pagan origins of the catholic church. St Peter's square is in the symbol of a sun wheel (seen from above). The Popes sceptre has a pine cone a pagan symbol of eternal life. There are many more .

I don't happen to have a copy of the book, thanks for providing an idea of it. A circle can be a sun wheel, the worm Ouroboros, a wedding ring, the world, or a useful shape for an architect who is tired of square plazas.

We all know that triangles are ancient Pagan symbols of something or other, but they're also symbols of the Trinity. I'm perfectly willing to accept that Pagans used the pine cone as a symbol of something. I'm sure they also used wine, water, bread, fish, and just about everything else as a symbol. Does that mean we can never ascribe another meaning to a fish, or whatever?

The Vicars of Christ The dark side of the papacy by Peter de Rosa. The history of the Popes and what they did, the book if pretty damning. The Pope is suppose to be God's man on earth..Not

No argument there were some bad Popes. It might be worth while to look at the times they were in to see what the standard of "good behavior" was then, but still, there were some bad ones.

The sexual abuse of course.

You may want to go back a few posts where I offered some thoughts on that subject.

Jasenovac concentration camp(WW2) it was worse than Auschwitz. It was backed by the Vatican

I knew absolutely nothing about this camp in Croatia, so I started looking where everybody does, Wikipedia. There wasn't even a hint that the Vatican had any control of it. The only place where the Vatican was even mentioned, was in regards to their efforts to prevent deaths.

I'll wait for further information, but until then, I think I'll remain Catholic.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


If I may interject here about pagan symbolism. It was early on that when Christianity was going into some European countries, it went slowly across the continent, some Catholic priests found it necessary to address the pagans from what they understood about their world.

Easter eggs are pagan in origin, but how many Protestants also have Easter Egg hunts? How many Protestant people have Easter Bunny decorations in their homes? They don't question the pagan origins. Protestants turn a blind eye when it comes to the Easter Bunny. Some Christians call them Resurrection Eggs....what do eggs have to do with the Resurrection?

One thing that I appreciated from Catholics is that they hold Good Friday services at noon. In fact, where I am from in Ohio, even stores closed on Good Friday from 12-3 pm. The only other church that I have been to on Good Friday was an Anglican church. But Protestant churches don't have Good Friday services. I think that's a terrible shame, that is why I, as a Protestant, will go to Good Friday services in a Catholic church, because Good Friday is the one single unifying event that Christianity was founded on, the crucifixion of Christ.

Also regarding paganism, we all know that Halloween was a pagan celebration called Samhain. That's no secret, but the tradition of celebrating Halloween, actually began in the United States from the Protestants. How many Protestant people do you see dressing their kids up and trick-or-treating. They decorate their homes with all of this.

I refuse to decorate my home for the Easter Bunny, Halloween or even Santa Claus. But Protestant Christians accuse Catholics of being pagan then embrace every bit of paganism in their own homes. And you want to know something, the pagans have noticed the hypocrisy. Why do you think so many Christian children grow up to follow Wicca and other pagan leanings?

I must be a strange Christian, I am not a Sacred Namer, but I do celebrate my own form of the Passover, which the Passover seder meal is actually Christian communion. I am so strange that I don't celebrate the holidays as other people in churches do. I do celebrate Christmas, but not with Santa Claus.

I don't fit in with a lot of denominations, so I have had to seek out just what I do believe. I am much like the Orthodox Quakers, I do believe in the mystical communion with God. And mystical does not mean magical, it simply means that one can understand and know God within, not that we are God, but that God communicates with us inwardly. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me if I practice magic...because they don't understand the true meaning of mystical. But I am not what you would call a Christian mystic, because sometimes they have conclusions to things that are not found in what Jesus taught.

I have a brother that is Wiccan, and he constantly has to ask why Christians do things and Catholics do things...but he also can't reconcile historical facts. He lights candles on full moons and goes out to the woods to walk around in circles, and has ceremonies and all of the things they do.

I just think it's a little hypocritical for Christians to say that people can't pray to Mary, and yet tell their kids that Santa Claus brings them presents and the Tooth Fairy gives them money for losing their teeth.

Think about the Tooth FAIRY. What is the origins of fairies? Weren't they found in Pagan Britain?

WarminIndy
Some Christians call them Resurrection Eggs....what do eggs have to do with the Resurrection?

I literally lol'd at that one, thanks for the chuckle.

One thing that I appreciated from Catholics is that they hold Good Friday services at noon. In fact, where I am from in Ohio, even stores closed on Good Friday from 12-3 pm. The only other church that I have been to on Good Friday was an Anglican church. But Protestant churches don't have Good Friday services. I think that's a terrible shame, that is why I, as a Protestant, will go to Good Friday services in a Catholic church, because Good Friday is the one single unifying event that Christianity was founded on, the crucifixion of Christ.

I don't know if it's universal, but my old United Methodist church held a service on Maundy Thursday evening, one on Good Friday at noon, and then an Easter sunrise service, so there are some Protestant churches that do Holy Week right.

I'm not sure that the local Catholic churches here have Friday noon Mass -- there is Mass Thursday night, Stations of the Cross at 3PM on Friday, Communion service Friday night, and the Easter Vigil on Saturday night -- the three nights are referred to as the "Paschal Triduum".

If you're comfortable going to a Catholic church, during Lent you might want to check out Stations of the Cross, which is every Friday (usually at night, some do it in the day.) There are 14 stations that represent different parts of Christ's Passion, and I've always found it to be a strong spiritual experience, even when I was a Methodist (my wife was Catholic and introduced me to it.)

reply to post by charles1952


I should have gotten back to you earlier but I am low on energy lately. As per your quote.

.
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
.

I am sorry but that does not sound like hell. Denied entrance to a snazzy club of elites, yes but fire brimstone eternal suffering not even close. It just brings to mind envy is all. I can live with that(pun).



Anyway I have been looking into some articles about their archives and I came across what was more or less a complaint. It seems that while they do open them to those that are qualified they also vet only those who are complementary to their own agenda.

I am still reading on the subject so I don't want to say for certain. I did find out that they do still have some archives that are closed to the public but stored elsewhere. The more I read the more interested I become.

You know how to pick subjects that stir controversy and people who hold on to their beliefs tend to do so tightly. I wish you well in your endeavor to clear up misunderstandings and get to the bottom of any "why the hate?" issues.

Hatred is something the Catholic Church does not condone. Hate the sin, but not the sinner. We are all created by a God that is the essense of love. Perhaps this is why I am really weary of attempting to explain basic theology at this website. Hatred doesn't have an open mind. I know the author of hate and he is no friend of mine. Hatred is worse than a vicious Pitt Bull and I would rather fight it with prayer than words.

If you aren't a hater and just are seeking understanding I recommend a website called forums.catholic.com... Use the search tool to ask your questions and you don't have to register unless you want to participate.

Call a church and ask for a priest or deacon to give you the answers you are looking for, if understanding the faith matters to you.

Peace out.

SevenThunders

Read Foxe books of martyrs and then return to this thread. The catholic church has slaughtered millions of christians over the years. They are a pseudo-christian cult that employs a form of paganism in their idolatrous worship of Mary and the saints and the worship of icons and statues.

Also read some Martin Malachi, a now deceased catholic priest. He asserts that the Vatican has been overtaken by a cabal of satanists. Satan now runs the catholic church.

It's likely that someone has beaten me to the punch and has already replied to this, but it should be noted that John Foxe was as much a polemicist as historian and his work should be considered a guide as opposed to an accurate historical record.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure that Martin had said that the Church was infiltrated, not overtaken. A small distinction, I know. He was an excellent writer. I greatly enjoyed his book on David.

Eric

celticdog
The two Babylon's by Rev Alexander Hislop . The Pagan origins of the catholic church.

I would be very hesitant to recommend The Two Babylons to anyone as anything other than a book that was influential in its time.

It is chock full of errors of every type. Formal logic errors, errors in archeological research, errors in ancient language interpretation and more.

Historians and other scholars give no credence to Hislop's work, outside of the role the book has played in anti-Catholicism.

Eric

Catholic hate - Because you cant worship your own religion without trying to get non believers to convert to your deluded value system therefore you start throwing the victim word around.

Hi Charles. I see that people are playing gentle with you and that's great. I am a happy ex-Catholic, although at one time I was angry. It doesn't eat away at me any more.

You made an attempt at defending the sex abuser priests by lumping them into a common stats category. However I take issue with that tactic, Charles. From my point of view, the abuse of children by priests and brothers should never be included in other groups of abusers, ever. The reason for that is that the position of trust they held in the parish was absolute. Our parents taught us to never question or criticize them. They held a position of *absolute* trust, unlike community leaders, scout leaders, and yes even our relatives. It made us obedient to them and extremely vulnerable, as many unfortunates have discovered. I think in retrospect that was one very huge mistake. Our collective innocence made us believe that their celibacy made them holier, which history has now shown us can be doubted.

To recall the 80s and early 90s when the scandals were a dime a dozen, I happen to know for certain that the chief preoccupations of the bishops was their financial stability and the probable financial consequences of lawsuits brought on by the sex abuse. Months before they finally listened to their disgusted and outraged parishioners to "please apologize to the victims", they were knee deep in tight talks with Rome about separating their assets so that individual bishoprics would be worth less. There was absolutely no concern voiced for the victims.

I have been to Rome and seen the artwork which is amazing. However if Jesus were still here I cannot even slightly believe that He'd hang onto that stuff if it meant He could help the poor and those in need of ministering. There are hundreds of huge chandeliers hanging in St-Peters that would bring in a pretty penny, but nevertheless Rome hangs on to them as only a materialistic church can do. Lots of its artwork could be sold for others to manage and to do so would not mean the art would be lost to the world. I appreciate that people donated tidy sums to them, as did my parents in their wills. The church itself conditioned all of us to do that. I firmly believe that the over the top opulence of Rome would make Jesus gag and I'd venture to guess that His reaction to the money-changers in the temple would be quite mild in comparison to His reaction when and if He ever ventured into St-Peter's. The present pope has shown some of this disdain too, but it seems he is powerless to bring about change along those lines except for his own actions and choices.

However way beyond all that though is the deliberate way the church has made women feel over the centuries. Honor thy mother and father is so very empty if equal value of the genders is made out to be a farce, as it is in the church. Children beyond the fourth grade can readily grasp for themselves that their parents are not given the same value. The church has forever imparted this dichotomous viewpoint into society so that instead of high moral values, society has been getting mixed messages. Eve was tempted and Adam was the one who ate the apple. To use that story as an excuse to exclude women and hold them in subservience reeks of an old boys club long, long past its prime. It's very temporal and nowadays I have to wonder just how much longer they can sell this divisive dribble as society declines more and more?

The Catholic Church was and is an old boys' club that appropriated pagan feasts to itself, such as the calculation of Easter being exactly the same calculation as the feast of Ishtar and Saturnalia being called Christmas. At one time it may have been clever to do so, but after so many centuries, nah. It has shown no signs of evolving or rising to the stature Jesus wanted for it. Pomposity and grandeur, kissing of rings, ughn. That is not a sign of respect but of reducing the dignity of the one who indulges in it.

Sorry if in replying I ruffled your feathers, Charles.

aboutface
You made an attempt at defending the sex abuser priests by lumping them into a common stats category.

I'm sure that Charles will be by to discuss your points, so I won't address most of them. That's probably a good idea as I regretfully tend to be more strident than he is.

I will, however, say that it is absolutely ridiculous that you characterize his discussion of the sex abuse scandal as 'defending the sex abuser priests'. I hope that was just a poor choice of words as 1) that would be a deplorable act by anyone and 2) it appeared as though he were attempting to objectively put out data that he researched while remaining open to discussion.

Eric

Regarding the Resurrection eggs, I heard it explained as a symbol for the stone that was rolled away from the tomb as an egg looks like a stone. Whether this is how the tradition came about I couldn't say. I guess I'd rather have a colored egg in my basket than a stone.

Anyhow, I saw it as nothing more than a fun game for kids to find those hidden eggs done only once a year. Maybe that all it ever was. If it was meant to represent a stone I think that idea did not get passed on through the generations.

Sorry if this has been mentioned. I only caught the tail end of this discussion.

sad_eyed_lady


Regarding the Resurrection eggs, I heard it explained as a symbol for the stone that was rolled away from the tomb as an egg looks like a stone. Whether this is how the tradition came about I couldn't say. I guess I'd rather have a colored egg in my basket than a stone.

Anyhow, I saw it as nothing more than a fun game for kids to find those hidden eggs done only once a year. Maybe that all it ever was. If it was meant to represent a stone I think that idea did not get passed on through the generations.

Sorry if this has been mentioned. I only caught the tail end of this discussion.

The Easter egg is borrowed from Germanic paganism that a lot of pagans are really upset that Christians have taken it and they want their eggs back.

Even in China, eggs were seen as a fertility symbol and they were died red to place under a newlyweds pillow. There's references to eggs as being the symbol of fertility across the ancient world and even many religions believed the creation of the world was from an egg.

That concept pre-dates Christianity.

reply to post by aboutface


I decided to just reply instead of placing a huge quote. The notion of absolute trust is found in all churches and religions. Even Protestants are taught to some degree of the absolutes of the pastor's words.

Girl Forced To Apologize to Church

And even the Amish are not allowed to question the deacons decisions when it comes to authority. Here is an article from 2007 about MORE sexual abuse among Protestant churches than Catholic.

Child Sex Abuse Among Protestants

It's not a Catholic problem, it is a human being problem and to continually highlight the Catholics is denying the same thing by other churches.

Might is right...1/3 of the worlds population is loosely christian...greater amount, greater volume, greater influence(?)...greater 'hatred'...seems an easy equation...

Denominations within the 1/3 vie for legitimacy, complicating the noise...

Å99