My name is David Paulides and for the last 4 years I've been investigating people missing in the wi

reply to post by SandySearcher


David I have read 411 Missing Western U.S. & look forward to reading the other volumes. Also, I've heard several of your radio interviews. IMHO, you are a well trained, intelligent, compassionate and dedicated investigator.

I've read various stories on the Todd Sees case and frankly, I thought it had been debunked. I'm only an armchair internet detective and even I find researching these cases intensely frustrating. What first appears as a truly mysterious & unexplained event is revealed to be a tragic incident upon further research.

Surely, we've all read about the mystery of our choice only to be disappointed by the author's less than stellar investigative skills. For me it's not about agreeing with an opinion as much as it is about being challenged to come up with another credible explanation. I believe much of what I read in the Missing book was investigated as thoroughly as possible with the information available. Naturally, it's frustrating with the oldest cases to have so little to go on but the mystery remains. It's heartbreaking to imagine the grief these families must experience, especially those who've lost young children. Those PA cases are quite disturbing.

David, it truly is shocking the NPS does not keep any type of data base for these incidents, especially with today's technology. Since you've published your books, have you been contacted by any other NPS employees or LE who offered more information on this subject? If there's no database, no one collecting the stories for further investigation, how will the mystery ever be solved? Thanks for your hard work and bringing this topic out of the shadows.
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Understand, to track missing people is not rocket science and it doesn't cost thousands of dollars. This could be easily accomplished with a clipboard, graph paper and commitment. Place a clipboard and paper in the head officer of all park managers. Divide the paper into categories, location of disappearance/date/time/name/DOB/family contact/report#. Every time someone goes missing, you log onto the paper the facts, if they are found, note it. At the end of every month, fax the paper to someone at NPS headquarters where the data is held on a laptop. Anyone who says that NPS does not have the money or technology to accomplish this, exposes the fact that they don't want the data to be maintained publicly and subsequently made available to the public.

We hope to find a congressman or senator that oversees NPS, understands the issues and forces them to comply.

Thanks for the question.

reply to post by Dreamkidd


Hi David,

Thank you for your ongoing efforts to engage with so many users here personally. I have been on this site for many years now and i must say, this is one of the most intriguing threads in my opinion.

Some questions;

a) Are you familiar with any events specific to your criteria here in New Zealand? We have some pretty vast and extensive, uninhabited wilderness areas.

b) Are many of the hikers, children etc that are eventually found dead but relatively in tact e.g not just bones or a skull cap and tibia mutilated at all and if so, is there a trend to the type of damage inflicted e.g certain limbs missing, broken, twisted, scratches, odd markings?

c) Are there ever signs of sexual mutilation to the genitalia or signs of rape or damage resulting from?

d) You mentioned that trends may lean towards children, disabled, Caucasian and those with animals e.g dogs but are there any other trends that might accompany this list?

e) Is the ratio male to female pretty even or skewed?

Once again, very very interesting.

Thank you for taking the time!
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In "Missing 411-Eastern U.S. we list the victims that we document. The total at that time was 411, 296 men, 115 women. Most disappearances in any year, 1949, 11, all males.

Never any indications of sexual mutilation.

The remains that are found are not intact normally, it's an unusual characteristic that is one identifying feature.

Thanks for the question.

reply to post by Komodo

Mr. Paulides,

Since there are massive disappearances and the SAS and other US & Canada governments KNOW what is going on, I would think its their responsibility ALSO to help the rest of us. Because at this point, it very well could start hysteria due to 'mushroom mentality' of those that KNOW what the truth is and people will start assuming the worst; and the only thing we have so far to help us is.. 'stay out of the woods' ..............


Question: What are the SAS, US & Canadian governments doing to help protect the rest of us? If at all ?? !!! (if this is truly the case of massive scale as you've stated so far..)
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Whatever is causing the disappearances is unknown to us. It would appear that our government knows something is happening. It may be that the feds can't control whatever is happening and everyone knows when they can't control something, they won't admit it exists.

Thanks for the question.

reply to post by akalepos

Mr. Paulides

Thank you very much for all this banter and your responses. Without the passion you hold for this search, the frustration level for the lack of a cogent, logical answer, would seem to be very high.

Of the many things I read here, (and had to give up after awhile) was the story of you and the 70yr old friend touting 50+ years outdoor experience, and the "dead spot" you guys found out in the woods... NO Sound, remember?

For all of my life I have had an interest in and have experienced much abnormal phenomena. Many would call it 'paranormal' It is essentially the same notion. I actually wonder about the nature of "temporal reality". I remain unconvinced that our reality is "set", black and white, and stable as the majority of people justifiably believe. I think reality is in flux, exactly the same as the energy it is made from. It is "possible" that "tears" appear in reality and people simply walk through these "doorways", some people call them, and can't find their way back it happens quite by accident.

The old OSI investigated such cases years ago. I have no idea what they do these days. I think you and your buddy were on the edge of a "vortex", for lack of a better word, and had you guys continued in those woods you might have ended up in some odd parallel existence, the totality of which one can only infer in a metaphysical way.

A tool that could possibly help your search in areas that have many missing persons is a device that can measure magnetic flux. Oppenheimer and those folks had such equipment in the 40's, so I believe that a hard search might find something that can help measure if there is something "funny" in an energetic manner in some of these areas.

It might Never produce the empirical evidence that one ought seek, but can help produce a possibly reasonable cause for the disappearances. There are reports that the gov has that you might never have access to of people simply walking down the street in one city and **suddenly** being in another city.

You MIGHT contact Dan Akroyd to discover where he found the reports and if they are verifiable in any way. H made the reports public in that "paranormal" TV Show he produced about 10 -15 years back. He does maintain interests in that direction and would well remember hi sources.

I am not trying to introduce some sort of "kooky" theory into this. I just simply think there are other explanations yet to be explored. I am not alone in the assumption that reality is not really what we think it is. I have had many very odd experiences that have made me question the nature of existence. No, we do not live in the Matrix, nice story line, yet something more seems to be happening and has probably always been happening.

Good Luck David, on this task you have taken on. Thank you for sticking your nose in there. God knows someone MUST take look!
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Thanks for the recommendation and polite nature of your note.
I will put this on our list for discussion and see where it goes. I know very little on the topic so need to dig a little deeper.

Thanks again for the contact!!

reply to post by BO XIAN

I think I'd be reluctant to get much into an intersection of the two topics . . . even when a portion of the evidence MIGHT suggest that.

Yep I agree, that's kind of why I redacted the question. My bad. Apologies David.

reply to post by DavidPaulides


Thank you sir and keep up the good work

if only we listened to the native indians instead of wiping to the brink of extinction

They knew how mother earth worked and knew how to live in harmony with HER

again thanks for you time in replying to my question

also for the dedication you have put in this thread

reply to post by arosebyanyothername


Hi Dave, as good digging will do, I found an account of Katherine Van Alst online with a panoramic view of the area plus more. Granted it looks different than 1946 by a long shot if anyone has seen old pictures of the Den, but it wouldn't take long for a child to disappear/especially since the park was much more wild. According to the story she lost her way on a creek returning to her family's cabin. Frankly I would not have let a child wander around by herself.

As far as traveling so far and not succumbing. Our summers here are usually quite pleasant especially in June which is traditionally quite mild. Even on the hottest of days (unless we have the rare heat wave of a few years ago) the shade of trees offers much respite. I also read the account in local papers at the time where Katharine described drinking from various water sources and eating berries which are plentiful in June (and quite tasty I might add). While it is boggling to imagine she covered so much distance and heights, in my 30 years here there have been numerous missing children stories and by and large they have been found alive even many many days after disappearance and have traveled amazing distances/children much younger than Katherine. I estimate Katherine traveled between 5 and 6 miles daily which is really not that much for a child who is actively looking for her family (I easily walked that as a child and could climb quite high). It is not unusual for scores of volunteers to look , close to a hundred or more and yet they miss finding the child on first, second and even third canvassing. Winter of course is a different story but their have been some survival stories at that time also.

When she was found she was in reasonably good shape except for a lot of insect bites/which also would be standard for June. Growing up barefoot myself and spending a lot of time in pine woods filled with sharp cones I see no conflict. Children's bodies are amazingly supple and resilient. I wish I could say that now *grin*.

As the neutral observer I think the truth is often found somewhere in the middle. I can see many plausible explanations for Katharine's disappearance and survival.

Thank you for making me aware of her story. Any opportunity to further hone critical thinking skills I welcome.

~rose

@southbeach…thanks so much for the additional link. I look forward to reading *smile*

@ BO XIAN…I think you make some very valid suggestions *kudos*
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Katherine was not near her cabin, she was at a small dam in a creek at the park, Devils Den.
She disappeared and was eventually found 7 miles (as the crow flies) from the point last seen.
Searchers estimated she traveled 24-36 miles in her trip.
When she disappeared, the sheriff stated he doubted the child went into the woods.
She was found in a cave on a mountain top 800' higher in elevation then where she disappeared.
I cite two articles where these facts were presented. All of our stories state exactly where we gleaned our facts.

1. Our group deals in facts. Fact #1, SAR teams work off grids (set perimeters) based on the study of behavior of people in certain age brackets. Robert Koester has written one of the top books for SAR. He stated that an 8 year old should be found 95% of the time in a distance of 7 miles or less, total trip. Katherine supposedly traveled 24-36 miles.

2. Katherine wasn't wearing shoes, just a bathing suit, this should obviously inhibit her travel. The girl was playing in water in a creek prior to disappearing. What logic would someone utilize to justify walking uphill into a jungle like atmosphere away from the safety of the creek where she was playing? Think of the incredible odds of Katherine having hundreds of square miles to hike, she finds a cave with spring water running from it and is found in that location.

This story defies 99.99% of all missing girl stories we've read, thus the inclusion.

Have a great day.

DavidPaulides
reply to post by SandySearcher

 

David, it truly is shocking the NPS does not keep any type of data base for these incidents, especially with today's technology. Since you've published your books, have you been contacted by any other NPS employees or LE who offered more information on this subject? If there's no database, no one collecting the stories for further investigation, how will the mystery ever be solved? Thanks for your hard work and bringing this topic out of the shadows.
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Understand, to track missing people is not rocket science and it doesn't cost thousands of dollars. This could be easily accomplished with a clipboard, graph paper and commitment. Place a clipboard and paper in the head officer of all park managers. Divide the paper into categories, location of disappearance/date/time/name/DOB/family contact/report#. Every time someone goes missing, you log onto the paper the facts, if they are found, note it. At the end of every month, fax the paper to someone at NPS headquarters where the data is held on a laptop. Anyone who says that NPS does not have the money or technology to accomplish this, exposes the fact that they don't want the data to be maintained publicly and subsequently made available to the public.

We hope to find a congressman or senator that oversees NPS, understands the issues and forces them to comply.

Thanks for the question.

Snipped my own post for relevance sake. Thanks for the reply David. I too think the Gov't knows something about what's going on. The simplicity of keeping the records as you explained it is a key factor in my mind. Personally, I wouldn't rely on the Gov't to compel the NPS to keep those records.

I hope you'll keep us updated if you do find a Senator or other official who's willing to push the issue. Thanks again for participating in the discussion here.

reply to post by Philippines

I can understand the process taking long and information being passed on word of mouth only, if at all, especially in the remote places.

Would Bruno Manser be one of the candidates for missing people in Borneo out of curiosity?

What set of requirements define geographical locations to merit the region as a hotspot for unexplained disappeared people?

Thanks again for your time =)
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No, Manser is not one, too few facts surround his disappearance. There are no less then 4 theories about what happened to him, too many theories, too few facts.

Thanks again

DavidPaulides
reply to post by Alien Abduct

 

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Let's pretend we allow a victim to read what you just posted and told them that this was the path we would take with their story. Is that going to make them warm and cozy, or will they feel as though we compromised our promise. Even if 1 out of 10 said we lied, your word is your word. Once your credibility has been compromised, your done. I would never do it.

Dave, after reading several of your responses on this witness issue it looks like you indicating that we the readers need to fill in the blanks? That's ok if so because I can see a lot of similarities in these missing cases with others where we have after the fact witness testimony, local legend ect that have many of the features of these case. And not confined to one field of study or interest. And so I can understand why they may want to remain privet. Not simply because of possible embarrassment and ridicule but trauma as well.

So what I am going to do is simply figure that many of these cases where victims were recovered alive that you have researched, fit into the know categories of cases recorded elsewhere that have witness testimony, again in several seemingly unrelated explanation areas and not simply the most obvious. Would that be the right direction? Could you give me that much?

The SAR discussions reminded me of another book I read. The Last Season by Eric Blehm is about a NPS ranger, Randy Morgensen who disappeared while on duty. He was later found dead, determined to be accidental. It doesn't fit the criteria of the 411 Missing cases.

I only mention it because it was a very detailed account of the SAR process. After reading it, I find the 411 Missing cases even more mysterious.

Hi David, and thanks for answering all of my questions so far. I hope you won't mind if i ask another couple:

Have you come across any cases that resemble the disappearance of James Worson in England in 1873 and what is the earliest recorded disappearance that you've come across?

Note: During a run, Worson stumbled and fell, "let out a cry", and vanished before he hit the ground. He was never seen again. Wiynessed by 2 people.

DrumsRfun

Your vid is private.. try this

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QUESTION:

I am new to the topic of missing people in the wild but I have to ask: Some places are considered to be horrible underground labs and bases for human experiments, people kept in cages like animals. 'Dulce base' was considered such but recently an author named Greg Valdez revealed that the whole join-alien base story was a fabrication and it was just an underground military base. Have you come across any clues of such places ANYwhere across the states to be likely used for such missing people - kidnapped and then used as guinea pigs.

Hi David. This is the best "Ask me thread" so far! I too am looking at purchasing your books soon. As an avid outdoors woman with 3 small children this has given me a real heads up!

A quick question I have for you is how many people have gone missing under these 'strange circumstances'? At least the ones you know of. North America and Canada in particular. But breaking it down in other areas would be great.

Thanks for your time and all your hard work!

Pamela

reply to post by schuyler


Schuyler, did you see my post a couple pgs back? The scientist, in the purported letter to a journal which rejected her paper, offers the journal's board members to visit a place to see the creatures. Says if one stays 3 days it's "approaching" 99.99% sure that one will have "an experience".
She writes, "Seeing is believing" :-o

Well, shoot, I've now been convinced that I must read your books. Which one do I start with?

After all that you have learned, how do you keep yourself from forming your own theories on what is happening?

mrsdudara
Well, shoot, I've now been convinced that I must read your books. Which one do I start with?

After all that you have learned, how do you keep yourself from forming your own theories on what is happening?

He recommended we start with the Western copy, then East, then North America and beyond.

Hi David, Thank you for giving us this opportunity to interact. I have heard you interviewed several times in the past and have always found these cases intriguing.

After reading through the thread I was interested in what exactly are the criteria that are used for linking these cases? From the examples you have given it has been hard to see these links. The age and experience levels of the victims can vary from one extreme to the other as with children and adults. The distances from the last known location seem to vary greatly. Positioning of the body and condition of the remains do not appear to be similar as in one victim may have missing articles or be stripped while another may not. Some of the victims were armed or had an animal with them but others do not.

You have ruled out serial killers and human trafficking but then you mentioned the case with the woman in France who stated seeing someone behind the trees/bushes following or observing her. Many of these details seem contradictory and I have not seen it stated by you as to what the link is in these cases? Are you searching for a pattern or do you have a list of anomalies you check for when reviewing the case and if the case has one of these it is added to the pile so to speak? Are they mysterious because they fall outside of the established guidelines of SAR procedures and analysis as in the case of the little girl found apparently much further than she should have been able to walk according to SAR understanding?Could you reveal the process to us.

All of the cases presented are indeed mysterious and worthy of further study. I am just trying to find the link between the cases other than them simply occurring in national parks and forest.

Thank you for your time and contributions.

reply to post by Restricted


It seems as if the researcher amplified the DNA so many times that it was not able to be reliably concluded that she had what she said she did. Also some say she looked for ways to fit the dna into a theory, rather than the other way around. Also some claim she was sketchy on the question of possible lab contamination. Some say the sample(s) had bear dna, not a new human-type creature's dna. Also, there's a question of a video purported to be a closeup of a female creature (bf, sasquatch, whatever the name is) sleeping, which she doesnt release except for a small clip and asks the journal Nature ruling board to consider requesting copyright for a still frame of the creature's face for the cover of the issue. This was AFTER the paper was rejected, according to the site Ithink Schuyler linked to earlier. I dont know what is the truth, I do see a credibility issue though. Unless someone undertook a successful campaign against the scientist. Many sites mention the same cursory issues of newness of Denovo, newness and unproffessional appearance if website, etc, but as we have seen the media & 'journalists' do, it might be copied info from a same originating site.
I dunno. Seems she has a 'professional reputation-management' issue, at the least. At the very least.

reply to post by DavidPaulides



DavidPaulides
reply to post by arosebyanyothername
 


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Katherine was not near her cabin, she was at a small dam in a creek at the park, Devils Den.
She disappeared and was eventually found 7 miles (as the crow flies) from the point last seen.
Searchers estimated she traveled 24-36 miles in her trip.
When she disappeared, the sheriff stated he doubted the child went into the woods.
She was found in a cave on a mountain top 800' higher in elevation then where she disappeared.
I cite two articles where these facts were presented. All of our stories state exactly where we gleaned our facts.

1. Our group deals in facts. Fact #1, SAR teams work off grids (set perimeters) based on the study of behavior of people in certain age brackets. Robert Koester has written one of the top books for SAR. He stated that an 8 year old should be found 95% of the time in a distance of 7 miles or less, total trip. Katherine supposedly traveled 24-36 miles.

2. Katherine wasn't wearing shoes, just a bathing suit, this should obviously inhibit her travel. The girl was playing in water in a creek prior to disappearing. What logic would someone utilize to justify walking uphill into a jungle like atmosphere away from the safety of the creek where she was playing? Think of the incredible odds of Katherine having hundreds of square miles to hike, she finds a cave with spring water running from it and is found in that location.

This story defies 99.99% of all missing girl stories we've read, thus the inclusion.

Have a great day.



Morning Dave *smile*

To add to the discussion…

Katherine was not near her cabin, she was at a small dam in a creek at the park, Devils Den. Katherine was not near her cabin, she was at a small dam in a creek at the park, Devils Den.

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Yes, I know the area having been to the Den. If one were physically familiar with the park it would be easier to understand the terrain, paths leading to the cabins etc. It is also very easy to get lost in these mountains, I speak from personal experience. While on a search for a missing dog I walked these woods that I know like the palm of my hand, following the creek below and got quite lost. I never thought this would happen to me *grin*.

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When she disappeared, the sheriff stated he doubted the child went into the woods.

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People say the darndest things don't they lol. Every missing child story in my 30 years here the child has gone into the woods. Again if you know the area it's hard not to go into the woods. With the exception of the cabin area and some camp grounds the Den is all woods and quite beautiful I might add. It is so easy to get turned around in the woods and an 8 year old child would certainly be no different. I recall one story in particular where a 4 year old girl wandered off in an area that did not have a water source and was quite rugged. The concerns of the search party were dehydration, wild predators and snakes. Thankfully she was found in good shape on the 5th day abet dehydrated. Dehydration is the first major concern when a child or adult goes missing. Katherine had ample access to multiple water sources/and food.

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Robert Koester has written one of the top books for SAR. He stated that an 8 year old should be found 95% of the time in a distance of 7 miles or less, total trip. Katherine supposedly traveled 24-36 miles.

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Most certainly not questioning his credentials, my neighbor and good friend is a certified SAR instructor and searching in the Ozarks is approached in a different manner. Like I said, one would have to know these woods personally like we all do to understand how searches are conducted.

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Katherine wasn't wearing shoes, just a bathing suit, this should obviously inhibit her travel.

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Again *smile*, someone should tell the children who go missing in this area similarly scantily clad/maybe with only a diaper and t-shirt. And not uncommon to find their shoes days before finding the child. 5 to 6 miles daily travel for lost kids is very common in this area and often more.

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What logic would someone utilize to justify walking uphill into a jungle like atmosphere away from the safety of the creek where she was playing?

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The logic of children is something that has fascinated me. Reading various accounts of their logic in a variety of situations I find myself going, ah, the innocence of a child. At the ripe old age of 8 her logic would certainly be different from an adult. Katherine was from Kansas City, this was her first excursion into the woods would hardly know what to expect and what logic to apply even using the creative mindset of an 8 year old in general. The best logic would have been imho to stay put on the creek until found but she used a different logical process.

If I were to apply some deductive reasoning of my own, if I were lost I would go to the highest point in hopes of seeing where I was at and how to get back. It's so hard to see where you are going when you don't know where you are from ground level where everything looks the same. When I got lost on the creek and realized I was darn good and lost my next plan was to go as high as I could, climbed quite high/and it worked *grin*.


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She was found in a cave on a mountain top 800' higher in elevation then where she disappeared.

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Again one would have to know the area. The Den is filled with caves/a popular site for amateur cavers. My husband took his 8 year old niece to the den a few years ago (city born and bred) and she went nuts/climbing bluffs that are part and parcel of this beautiful terrain. We don't really call them 'mountain tops' in this area bc the bluffs are everywhere. We do have mountain tops certainly, like Mt Gaylor, but the Den does not have what the locals would call mountain tops. This is a very old range and locals usually refer to the mountains as hills and high hills *smile*.

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This story defies 99.99% of all missing girl stories we've read, thus the inclusion.

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I would respectfully comment that the Ozarks must not be part of the equation bc her story fits the profile for missing girls and boys in this area…and I might add missing adults *grin*.

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Thank you so much for your comments. I always enjoy talking about the special beauty and uniqueness of this area I have come to love and sharing insights that might fill in 'the rest of the story'.

Good day to you too *smile*

~rose

One of the many articles found online of Katherine's adventure…


Katherine's Great Adventure~