reply to post by peter vlar
I don’t understand why you say that the book of Deuteronomy was written in King Josiah’s reign. Could you give me reason for this? 2nd Kings
22:8 and 2nd Chronicles 34:15 both say that Torah was found by Josiah’s priest and not mentioned that a portion of Torah was written during his
reign. I understand Freedman’s theory that Deuteronomy was authored by others than Moses but isn't this conjecture?
Moses was 120 years old and this book of Deuteronomy is the last of his work just before his death. At this age it is believed that Moses did have a
scribe or many scribes and that his hand did not actually scribe the book. Just as Apostle John wrote the Revelations given to him by Jesus, the work
is titled “The Revelation Of St.John”. It is also postulated that a scribe added his opinions in this work after Moses died. That is not
uncommon even into the days of the Apostles.
Peter, you are correct in much of what you advocate as a secularist. I cannot argue those facts but it seems as though the discussion has morphed
from theology to secularism and we both well know that the two will never agree.
The Torah does exist today as the Torah. We will never prove that it exists today as it did when it was created. We both know that also. Oral and
written Torah are both Torah and I cannot prove that also.
The secular world dictates physical proof and not theology. I have been trying to mix the two and it cannot be done to the satisfaction of the
secular world. I admit that and that is my lesson in discussions with the atheistic world.
If I cannot prove Torah existed in 1313 BCE then I could never prove Abraham ever existed in the year 2000 BCE. That was the original question of
this discussion. One cannot admit to a theological character such as Abraham without secular proof and that does not exist in your world. Also if I
cannot prove Abraham in 2000 BCE then I cannot prove Nimrod or Terach or any other character of the ancient scriptures. I then cannot prove that the
world was of one language at any given time. By this same rule I cannot prove that Jesus or any of the biblical characters ever existed. Actually I
cannot prove that a language existed beyond what is shown to this science.
You have asked me for my proof and I admit that I cannot offer proof in a theological format. Otherwise it would not be theology but would be fact.
According to my acceptance there was a Rabbi named Rabbi Yaakov Culi who wrote “The Torah Anthology” in 1739 CE. That has been most all of my
source along with The Jewish Time Line Encyclopedia. Proof? I have no proof that this man ever lived. I accept his literature on faith. This work
is in many volumes and is known as Torah Anthology by ME’AM LO’EZ. I studied Genesis volume 1.
The written and oral Torah was given in the year 2448 after creation which is 1312 BCE. The written Torah was not to be memorized while the oral
Torah was to be memorized. At the end of forty years in the Exodus (desert), Moses wrote thirteen Torah Scrolls. Twelve of the scrolls were given to
the twelve scribes while the thirteenth scroll was given to the Levites to place in the Ark of the Covenant. Moses taught Joshua the oral Torah who
in turn taught this to the members of the Great Assembly. There was no written record of the vowel or accents. This continued from 1272 BCE (40
years after the Exodus) to 161 CE-180 CE. It was in this era of 161 CE-180 CE of the Roman Emperor, Marcus Aureleis, that oral Torah was written.
Rabbi Yehuda the Prince decided that it must be written in order to be preserved. This redaction became known as the Mishnah.
This Mishnah was completed in 3949 after creation (189 CE) which was 120 years after the destruction of the second temple. Soon after this Rabbi
Chiya wrote the book Tosefta and Rabbis Hoshaya and Bar Kapra wrote Bareita. Rabbi Yochanan then redacted the Jerusalem Talmud. All of this was to
confirm and explain the Mishnah. It was also that Rabbi Hoshaya compiled the Midrash Rabbah on the book of Genesis, while many other Rabbi’s wrote
numerous commentaries explaining oral Torah as well as written Torah. It was then that the Babylonian Talmud (Gemarah) was compiled by Rav Ashi.
This work is the compilation of all of the previous work into order for understanding.
The reason I gave you this spiel was to show you that all of this is considered Torah but then again is not the original Written Torah of 1312 or
1313. Yes, oral Torah was written near after King Josiah but according to tradition, the written Torah of Moses was never re written. as the Hebrew
Torah. It is true that it was translated into the Greek language but Tradition dictates that it would be unheard of and never to be tolerated to
change one character of original Torah. According to tradition the Torah of Moses has never been redacted and was completed as it stands today from
`I did misspeak on the Dead Sea Scrolls dates and I apologize for that. You are correct in your challenging me on that issue. I do not understand my
own understanding in that respect
There are about 6000 languages known to exist today. Asking many linguists, I have read that most will not agree one with the other in that there is
a mother tongue and where this tongue developed. I have yet to hear from your secular world any confirmation of this question. One insists that
about 50,000 years ago the Africans were the first to vocalize while another will say that the Mesopotamian cultures were the first to vocalize. Books
upon books are written by various linguists and after the smoke has cleared we have suppositions and distant dates that are accepted by the secular
world as being science. But then a biblical linguist come to light with the very same credentials and is buried with criticism from the secular
Naturally if 50,000 BCE is accepted as a fact then what is a mere 2000 BCE in referencing Abraham? The accepted science of today dictates 50,000 BCE
is believable and is published as fact in your secular world while in all reality it cannot be any more observed than my theology. What I am saying
is this. Linguists as well as all other sciences have facts with added theological attachments. Then the entire structure is accepted as fact
whereas it is not. That is what all of us are being taught. Mix a little fact with a little theory and put it into a book and sell it to the people.
That is what I have observed in this forum of “Did Abraham Really Exist”. The answer to the OP is that it cannot be proven to the satisfaction of
this secular culture. Thanks peter for being a gentleman.