Wake Up America : Al-Qaeda Was Established Under The Authority Of President Reagan

reply to post by mekhanics


Go back and read my first post about how the belief that the CIA created Al-Qa'ia or trained Bin Laden is fueled by ignorance and then go read your above post again and really think about it.

I mean really think about it.

The guy in your first video talks about the "mythical bin laden" he is talking about the "myth" that he was ever a CIA stooge, hell he even goes on to say the CIA did not train Bin Laden

Then you quote me some rubbish about "Tim Osman" which has been debunked, Its such a frankly pathetic claim it does not even warrant discussion.

Honestly after getting that far into your post i realized you were just another one of these people who just believes it because its on the internet and confirms your confirmation bias so gave up, nothing I haven't seen before just more of the same truther rhetoric. I have seen it dozens of times on ATS and i will see it countless times more.

I am not going to try to change your mind because I know that firstly you never will and secondly it could never teach the history of radical Islam in a singly post, thread or book, so I am not going to attempt to with a few links. This is because i could not give the topic the attention it deserves and it would be insulting to you for me to assume i could change your mind with a couple of links and a 5 minute youtube video. I am very confident in my interpretation of history so I dont feel a need to justify it, I know as a matter of historical fact that the CIA did not create Al-Qa'ida.

its really that simple.

but no please go on, believe everything the internet tells you because that is what you want to believe.

OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by mekhanics

 

Go back and read my first post about how the belief that the CIA created Al-Qa'ia or trained Bin Laden is fueled by ignorance and then go read your above post again and really think about it.

I mean really think about it.

The guy in your first video talks about the "mythical bin laden" he is talking about the "myth" that he was ever a CIA stooge, hell he even goes on to say the CIA did not train Bin Laden

Then you quote me some rubbish about "Tim Osman" which has been debunked, Its such a frankly pathetic claim it does not even warrant discussion.

Honestly after getting that far into your post i realized you were just another one of these people who just believes it because its on the internet and confirms your confirmation bias so gave up, nothing I haven't seen before just more of the same truther rhetoric. I have seen it dozens of times on ATS and i will see it countless times more.

I am not going to try to change your mind because I know that firstly you never will and secondly it could never teach the history of radical Islam in a singly post, thread or book, so I am not going to attempt to with a few links. This is because i could not give the topic the attention it deserves and it would be insulting to you for me to assume i could change your mind with a couple of links and a 5 minute youtube video. I am very confident in my interpretation of history so I dont feel a need to justify it, I know as a matter of historical fact that the CIA did not create Al-Qa'ida.

its really that simple.

but no please go on, believe everything the internet tells you because that is what you want to believe.

edit on 25-9-2013 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)

OK.

mekhanics
reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

 

they also published a article saying that Bin Laden was trained by the CIA

I'm sure they weren't speaking from they're a## were they?

CIA Talks About Bin Laden Being Trained By CIA on CNN

That was some funny stuff right there! You seriously intend to use that clip to support your claim that the CIA trained bin Laden? Did you bother to watch it first, or just run with the headline? Bearden very clearly says that the bin Laden trained by the CIA is a mythological character, and that the Afghan "War Hero" bin Laden is also mythological. He very clearly says that bin Laden was no war hero, and that the CIA would have nothing to do with him - the same things I've been telling people here, which has been falling on deaf ears. Keep in mind that Bearden was ALSO in-country at that time, and would likely know a good deal more about it that some half-assed reporter years later.

Hell, it wasn't even on CNN as the headline claimed - that was a CBS report. Yup, that right there is some funny stuff!

Gunderson further confirmed that Osama Bin Laden was a CIA/Pentagon asset that went by the name of Tim Osman. Gunderson met Bin Laden at the Hilton Hotel in Sherman Oaks, California in 1986. At the time, Bin Laden was a representative of the Mujahadeen, the Afghan fighters resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The Mujahadeen were trained and funded by the United States during Operation Cyclone, as stated by Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser and member of the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission and Bilderberg Group. Al-Qaeda is still run by the Pentagon and is used for regional destabilization, most recently in Libya.

"Confirmed"? let Gunderson produce some evidence to confirm it, then! He allegedly worked for the FBI anyhow - how the hell would he be privy to CIA stuff? The man is blowing smoke up your fourth point of contact, and you're loving every minute of it because it "confirms" what you want to believe, which is at odds with the historical record and verifiable fact.

The US government trained, armed, funded and supported Osama bin Laden and his followers in Afghanistan during the cold war. With a huge investment of $3,000,000,000 (three billion US dollars), the CIA effectively created and nurtured bin Laden's al-Qaeda terrorist network using American tax-payers money. Afghanistan is one of the world's poorest countries, where such an enormous sum sum of money would have had extraordinary value.

Source

Such BS! Not only would that sum have "had extraordinary value" in Afghanistan, it would have been HIGHLY noticed there - not much way to cover it up.

Bin laden brought his OWN money and equipment - mostly bulldozers and the like rather than arms. Had he brought arms, some of the real muj might have expected him to - GASP! - actually engage in a fight somewhere!

"War hero" my ass.

___________

Other info:
President Ronald Reagan Meeting Some Mujahideen

Reagan Archives

Note that in both the photo and the video, Reagan is meeting with MUJAHIDEEN - he's conspicuously NOT meeting with any of the "foreign volunteers". That in no way supports the spurious contention that "Reagan created al Qaida".

reply to post by nenothtu


What's Reagan doing with the mujahideen? I know they weren't killing people in the mid 80's but that has changed. So maybe a part of this story is true - he was helping those who were fighting against Russian occupation. Freedom fighters? Yet now we know their are many within this group linked with al Qaeda.

I don't believe Reagan helped Osama bin Laden. Osama and al-Zawahiri started Al Qaeda in the mid 80's and absolutely hated westerners - saw the US as corrupting the world. In fact, al Zawahriri even stated in one of his books if we would have stayed out of it 911 would not have happened. So did we play an inadvertent role in all of that? According to him we did. According to me we did - not on purpose but by sticking our noses in where they did not belong. Your not supposed to get in the middle of a dog fight either but we like to have our hands in all the action don't we (not referring to people over there like dogs by the way - used it as a visual for how vicious it can get it you do - bound to get bit).

no they didn't...

Everyone knows Osame ah been laid en created Al-cia-duuhh

Everyone knows Osame ah been laid flew each plane into each towER single handedly.

and that Osame ah been laid is hiding under your bed right now with a butcher knife waiting until you go to bed. BOOOOO!!!

According to Jim Marrs the CIA set up and funded Al Queda since WW2.

Osama bin laden was brought to the US under a different name to be trained.

The atomic bomb was given by the Nazi's at the end of WW2 in exchange for "immunity", and key scientists brought over to the US to continue their work.

The truth is coming out and no matter how deep the DUMB is..they won't be able to hide.

reply to post by nenothtu


My argument was weak. it was poorly presented I admit but I firmly believe that AL-Qaida was suggested by Mujahideen and CIA funded the group and eventually CIA trained those Mujahideen, including Osama Bin Laden. If I'm wrong then I suggest you place your documented proof instead of lame opinionated argument which holds no facts, just buzzwords. Fail.

Burp! He was praised a 'Warrior' once upon a time Mr Martin.

reply to post by mekhanics


Like i said to in in the first my first post to you it would be impossible for anyone to explain to you the complex history of Al-Qa'ida in a single thread or post and a knowledge of this history is essential in debunking "Al-CIA-du" myth. I would however suggest that you start by reading Steve colls book "Ghost wars" as it provides a very interesting historical account of both the CIA and Bin Laden during the Soviet Afghan war.

But with regards to your latest feeble attempt to "prove" Bin Laden was a CIA stooge with that article from the Independent in 1993.

I just happen to have a copy of it myself

and I will quote you a very interested line.

Bin Laden himself in this article says'

and i quote.

"Personally neither I nor my brothers ever saw any evidence of American help"

Again your own source debunks your claims, did you even bother reading that article before you posted it?

That's a serious question by the way and I would really appreciate a answer because it actually says the opposite of what you are claiming and you would know that if you read it

I think you are falling into a pit of ignorance that is common on this topic many who claim OBL was CIA use the same sources, the independent story is one as is the "tim osman" crap, and the video that you posted by the CIA man, their are a couple of others that I often see, I am sure if you continue with trying to prove he was CIA you will post one of them eventually. But regardless all of these can be quite easily dismissed by anyone who knows even just a little about Al-Qa'ida. However I think that you are just using the same rubbish that everyone else posts with out even bothering to check up on it first.

its the path the ignorance my friend

OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by mekhanics

 

Like i said to in in the first my first post to you it would be impossible for anyone to explain to you the complex history of Al-Qa'ida in a single thread or post and a knowledge of this history is essential in debunking "Al-CIA-du" myth. I would however suggest that you start by reading Steve colls book "Ghost wars" as it provides a very interesting historical account of both the CIA and Bin Laden during the Soviet Afghan war.

But with regards to your latest feeble attempt to "prove" Bin Laden was a CIA stooge with that article from the Independent in 1993.

I just happen to have a copy of it myself

and I will quote you a very interested line.

Bin Laden himself in this article says'

and i quote.

"Personally neither I nor my brothers ever saw any evidence of American help"

Again your own source debunks your claims, did you even bother reading that article before you posted it?

That's a serious question by the way and I would really appreciate a answer because it actually says the opposite of what you are claiming and you would know that if you read it

I think you are falling into a pit of ignorance that is common on this topic many who claim OBL was CIA use the same sources, the independent story is one as is the "tim osman" crap, and the video that you posted by the CIA man, their are a couple of others that I often see, I am sure if you continue with trying to prove he was CIA you will post one of them eventually. But regardless all of these can be quite easily dismissed by anyone who knows even just a little about Al-Qa'ida. However I think that you are just using the same rubbish that everyone else posts with out even bothering to check up on it first.

its the path the ignorance my friend

edit on 27-9-2013 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)

You said alot but couldn't provide any evidence of proof for counter-argument. Sound more like a northerner you do. Work on it!

This video shows how the CIA created Al Qaeda: www.youtube.com...

reply to post by mekhanics


You do know you are now making not making any sense

I dont need any references you provided them for me

The article you showed us quit clearly says that Bin Laden never had any American support.

Deal with it

Dianec
reply to post by nenothtu

 

What's Reagan doing with the mujahideen?

He's meeting with them in the White House. we were supporting them as insurgents against the Soviets at the time.

I know they weren't killing people in the mid 80's but that has changed.

Oh, but they WERE! Contrary to the popular conception at the time, Soviet soldiers were people, too, and the muj were very good at killing them. So good (with our help) in fact that by the end of the Soviet occupation, the Russians were for the most part confined to their bases , buttoned up and locked down. At that point the only Russians roaming the countryside for the most part were some Spetznaz units.

So maybe a part of this story is true - he was helping those who were fighting against Russian occupation. Freedom fighters? Yet now we know their are many within this group linked with al Qaeda.

We were helping the indigenous Afghan muj. people still seem to be unable to differentiate between the mujahideen and the "foreign volunteers" and the "Afghan Arabs". Different camps, different people, different origins, different support structures, different ultimate goals. The Afghan muj were never linked with AQ as far as I've seen - they later became "The Northern Alliance", fighting against the Taliban and AQ. That was people like Masud, in the Panjsher Valley. That's why AQ assassinated him a week prior to the 9/11 attack.

One source of the confusion may be the war lord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. He was an indigenous mujahideen commander during the Soviet war, who later went on to be a part of the Northern Alliance, only to switch sides later and join the Taliban. Hekmatyar is a war lord plain and simple, and was rather put out that he wasn't given a kingdom after the fall of the Taliban. In a huff and a fit of pique, he switched sides, kind of like a kid throwing a tantrum because he didn't get a pony for his birthday.

I don't believe Reagan helped Osama bin Laden.

You are correct in that disbelief. Don't get me wrong - it's not because Reagan wouldn't have. There were political games to consider - the whole "funding foreign mercenaries for an overthrow" thing that would not have played well... sort of like the current Syrian campaign. On top of that, there WERE overtures made to bin Laden (although not on Regan's orders), which he rebuffed and refused, for whatever reason. Various reasons have been given, mostly speculation.

Osama and al-Zawahiri started Al Qaeda in the mid 80's and absolutely hated westerners - saw the US as corrupting the world.

Late 80's, rather than mid. The earliest estimate I've seen was 1988, and that's open to question, as there is insufficient confirmation. The claim is that it was done in "secret meetings", and the nature of secret meetings doesn't often admit production of evidence. The earliest confirmation I've seen is about mid 1989 for the groundwork being laid. The last Russian left across their freedom bridge in February, 1989, and the CIA went in the opposite direction as fast as they could go. It was around this time that "al Qaida" was born. The Afghan Arabs needed another bogey man to justify their continued existence. AQ was formed and bin Laden supplied the bogey man in the form of the US, "occupying the land of the Two Shrines" (Makkah and Medinah - i.e. Saudi Arabia). Initially, the AQ beef was not "the US corrupting the world", it was their presence in Saudi Arabia, viewed by bin Laden as an "occupation" on par with the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan..

In fact, al Zawahriri even stated in one of his books if we would have stayed out of it 911 would not have happened. So did we play an inadvertent role in all of that?

Yes. When the Russians went north and we went south, it left a power vacuum in Afghanistan, a fertile field for all sorts of shenanigans, formation of al Qaida and somewhat later the Taliban among them.

According to him we did. According to me we did - not on purpose but by sticking our noses in where they did not belong.

I suppose that is a matter of perspective. I wouldn't say that our noses didn't belong in the Soviet Afghan war - there were all sorts of global dustups going on in those days between the US and the Soviets, mostly by proxy. I believe our involvement in that conflict was a matter of self-preservation, but that discussion would get involved and complicated, and may not be entirely understood by those too young to remember the times.

More to the point, our culpability was, in my opinion, leaving so fast we left a hole in the air there, and not providing the support necessary to stabilize Afghanistan in the aftermath of the war. There were those arguing that we needed to continue that support in order to provide stability, but we were in the minority and got overruled.

mekhanics
reply to post by nenothtu

 

My argument was weak. it was poorly presented I admit but I firmly believe that AL-Qaida was suggested by Mujahideen and CIA funded the group and eventually CIA trained those Mujahideen, including Osama Bin Laden.

You "believe". I see. I'm pretty sure that's what several have been saying - it's your "belief". Some people "believe" in fairies, you "believe" in a CIA-created al Qaida. Carry on, then... we are all entitled to "believe" whatever we want to believe.

If I'm wrong then I suggest you place your documented proof instead of lame opinionated argument which holds no facts, just buzzwords. Fail.

Sure thing - as soon as I catch someone on the opposing side putting up THEIRS. Until that time, there is no evidence to counter with evidence, only unsupported tales to counter with "opinion". Often enough, the "evidence" put forth by the opposition itself contradicts and gives the lie to the narrative they are trying to support... if only one bothers to read it.

Burp! He was praised a 'Warrior' once upon a time Mr Martin.

I strongly suggest you check the date of that article, and read it. It's dated Monday, 6 December, 1993 - several years AFTER the war. The substance is an interview with bin Laden, the only source in the article who was actually there - therefore no contradictory evidence was admitted in it. It's a pure propaganda piece, bin Laden merely puffing his chest up and tooting his own horn, with no opposition testimony allowed into it.

In short, it's the testimony of a Kangaroo Court.

There's more to being a "warrior" or a "war hero" than simply being in the same area as a conflict and studiously avoiding said conflict.

Here's a link to a larger resolution copy of that image. you can clearly see the date of the article in the upper right hand corner, and actually read the copy it contains within, blatantly contradicting the story you are espousing.

ETA: Who is "Mr. Martin"?

reply to post by nenothtu


Again, it started with Sadat. Plain and simple. OBL is NOT Al-Qaeda. He is a cog in a wheel. He did even make the decision for 9/11. He agreed but did not order it. He, is anything, is as described a spoiled rich boy turned warrior as many were. Educated in the best schools and access to money. If someone like that has a grudge they can cause some problems.

AQ is real and not CIA created. Did the CIA ever meet with members, I am sure, but at the end of 80% of those meetings I can bet you only the CIA left them with the intel they needed.

reply to post by EndOfHistory


Will check out the video later thanks !!

It's all been propaganda.

"HEY FOLKS ! THE GOVERNMENT DOES ABSOLUTELY NOT LIE !!"

"..AND THE NSA ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT LISTEN TO EVERY FORM OF COMMUNICATION". (What's next? Are they gonna start tapping 2 cups and string that kids use?).

*rolls eyes*