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Do Less Guns Really Mean Less Crime?

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posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by TinkerHaus
 

it was info i had previosly found..i will try to find the source but i have to leave for work shortly




posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by TinkerHaus
 

ok im outta time here is a quick google search result..


An example of one country is the USA, where according to the university of Michigan health system:

www.med.umich.edu...

The 2002 edition of Injury Facts from the National Safety Council reports the following statistics :
In 1999, 3,385 children and youth ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
214 unintentional
1,078 suicides
1,990 homicides
83 for which the intent could not be determined
20 due to legal intervention
Of the total firearms-related deaths:
73 were of children under five years old
416 were children 5-14 years old
2,896 were 15-19 years old

i will try to find the original sources..fact is most guns start out legal and due to theft etc.. lots end up on the street..i,ve had discussions with owners who say "i have one in my glove box, one behind the front door, have one in my night table, my wife has one in her purse..i guess my point is behind the front door or glovebox is not a properly stored weapon and it can be easily stolen
due dilligence is all that i ask for
peace


edit on 23-9-2013 by vonclod because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 11:51 AM
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Im going to go with yes and no.

Depends on the Area, Country, local customs and problems.

Gun control that works in one place wont work in another.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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Gun control in any and all countries has had horrible consequences. I understand that most people posting aren't even US citizens so I automatically pay them no mind. But countries like UK should know why we want our guns, I mean it was you that we fought for independence from. You as a society were not smart enough to fight for your guns and oppress tyranny. Just because you haven't learned your lesson doesn't mean we are dumb enough to follow.

Here are a few example from history to show why gun bans are a terrible idea......To bad most countries citizens didn't have the balls or wherewithal to keep their guns. Almost 100 million killed by there gov after gun bans.....disgusting!!!

Have you seen the movie Hotel Rawanda?? Just ask the over 1 million dead Tutsi how they feel about gun control....oh that's right you can't ask them because they are dead at the hands of their gov who enacted gun control to "stop violence".


Link
edit on 23-9-2013 by GuidedKill because: (no reason given)
edit on 23-9-2013 by GuidedKill because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by GuidedKill
 


let me stop you right there. As I have said in a previous post here. Guns are very restricted here in Denmark. And fact is, that it works for us. Granted we are a small country which helps aswell. But it works for us. From the year 2003 to the year 2011 we have had 100 killings commited with the use of guns. And 90% percent of them are gang related. Hells Angels, Bandidos and various immigrant groups.

In the same amount of time we have had 181 killings by knife, 37 with blunt force, 47 with general violence(whatever was closest like flasks or fists), 69 from choking, 5 from medicine, 9 by fire, 11 that didnt fit into the previous groups, and 7 unexplained.
This goes to show that if a murderer wants to kill, he will kill. Wether he has a gun or not. It also shows that our gun restriction works. It has had no horrible consequences as you say. The same can be said for many other countries, if you want to spend the time looking through their statistics.

Again. As I said in my previous post, it wont work in the U.S. Gun restriction simply wont work in the U.S. But dont tell me that it does not work anywhere, when it clearly does.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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GuidedKill
Gun control in any and all countries has had horrible consequences. I understand that most people posting aren't even US citizens so I automatically pay them no mind. But countries like UK should know why we want our guns, I mean it was you that we fought for independence from. You as a society were not smart enough to fight for your guns and oppress tyranny. Just because you haven't learned your lesson doesn't mean we are dumb enough to follow.


What a bunch of uninformed yanky doodle BS.

Gun control was only brough in to the UK Circa 1930.

And it works for us.

I probbaly wont work in the USA but it works here.


PS BTW we did have a war over tyranny here. It was the englisg Civil War, the Monarchy lost which is why they have the power of failing AA battery now.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:34 PM
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To be honest these debates are pointless. Why do British people care whether americans own personal firearms or not? Its got nothing to do with us. We should probably STFU and americans for thier part just do what you want to do and stop arguing with europeans.

Living in Britain I think our gun legislation probably went a little far as a knee jerk response to tragedy, however I don't see any great benefit in changing it back now. Nor does the vast majority of people. Yes it would be nice to be able go to a range and fire a gun (it is a fun thing to do, i've done it when visiting Nevada), I just don't think its worth the potential down side to society at large.

If americans do, thats fine. Its their society. You weigh cost versus benefit and you take your choice. The societal cost is the gun deaths and occasional mass tragedy. The benefit is the freedom of choice.

In addition, gun control in the USA is an impractical proposition anyway. There are too many guns and too much demand. Attempting to apply european style gun laws in the USA would be about as successful as alcohol prohibition in Europe (good luck with that). A war on guns would be great for organised crime and the ATF budget but would suck for everybody else.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by needlenight
 


You are actually a little off but not so much to make a big deal out of it. Denmark still has a large population whom have guns or permits of some kind to keep a firearm. So while you say gun control has helped it actually hasn't changed your numbers since gun controls were strengthened. As you can see by the report I am going to attach, countries like Russia that enacted stricter guns laws have actually increased in number of murders per gun owners. Thankfully for your country many people still have keep firearms in one way or another and your murder rates were never really high to begin with.

Link Harvard



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by TinkerHaus
 


Hi Tinkerhaus.. i think to truly get your point across to those people you will need to print your arguments out in braile because they are obviously blind. For people who don't seem to like guns they sure are trying to "shoot holes " in your OP...lol



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by justwokeup
 


Absolutely correct. I always wondered why is was people who aren't even US citizens who are most passionate about this issue. On the other hand the grand invention of the firearm is no longer a technological marvel it once was. The genie is out of the bottle so to speak and you can never get her back in. Even if you ban all guns the knowledge and will to have firearms is to grand. Just like in Pakistan where they take scrap metal and turn it into working firearms. Even a 5 year old can make a gun out of scrap, no way anyone can stop it.

edit on 23-9-2013 by GuidedKill because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by GuidedKill
 


Aye hunters can keep their rifles at home, if they are kept in a locked gunlocker, which is to be checked regularly by someone official.
People who shoot for a sport, can keep their guns at home under the same restrictions, as long as they have been an active member in a shooting clun/gun range for more than 2 years.

I agree with you, we never had a high murder rate to begin with. Which brings me back to my key point of the first post I made in this thread. It is not about the guns, it is about the people holding the guns. I believe that in order to lower murder rates in the U.S. Confiscating guns wont work. But fixing key problems in society is the way forward.

You will have to excuse my for not reading the Harvard thingy. I dont trust American sources in any way.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 01:05 PM
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justwokeup
We should probably STFU and americans for thier part just do what you want to do and stop arguing with europeans.


We'll said and to the point. Star for that one.

The US governments hypocrisy is astounding on the issue of gun control. While the pols swagger about with their armed bodyguards they want the rest of us disarmed. Mayor Bloomberg is a perfect example of this.

Washington DC, Chicago and New York have proven gun control will never work here in the US. Doesn't really matter why (hint: we know why.) The main thing is to keep the politicians from disarming the rest of us.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 01:10 PM
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TinkerHaus
A week or so ago I got myself involved in a thread about gun control. As was expected, a lot of people from the UK and Australia had a lot to say. It seems the idea that people are buying into is that less guns = less crime.

Despite trying over and over to show that crime rates and gun ownership rates do no correlate, I was unable to convince these people to even CONSIDER that guns are not the reason violent crimes happen.

Fast forward to today, and I stumble upon this study from Harvard that demonstrates exactly what I was claiming. If gun ownership and violent crime DO correlate, the relationship is this: The more guns in civilian hands the lower the rate of violent crimes.



They found that a country like Luxenbourg, which bans all guns has a murder rate that is 9 times higher than Germany, where there are 30,000 guns per 100,000 people. They also cited a study by the U.S.National Academy of Sciences, which studied 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, and it failed to find one gun control initiative that worked.



Some countries, like Russia, where guns are heavily restricted have INSANE violent crime rates.



Russia has a ban on hand guns and their murder rate is 30.6%, whereas in the United States the rate is a much lower 7.8%. And during the 1990s, gun ownership grew significantly in the United States, while violent crimes dropped by 30%. In England, after they banned handguns, the rate of violent crimes soared.


Considering that most gun crimes in the US (I believe something like 98%) are committed with hand guns, this statistic is particularly interesting.

And, as I've claimed and shown in multiple gun control arguments, violent crime has gone down by nearly 30% in the last 20 years in the USA, while gun ownership has gone up.

The VERY interesting thing about this study is that it doesn't seem to be acknowledged by the MSM. As of now, the only sources for this study that I can find are somewhat "fringe" media outlets. This further lends to the theory that there is an agenda to disarm the civilian population. You have to ask yourself, if we can show over and over that gun ownership and violent crime are not related in a negative way, why do they want to disarm us?

Source

Source II

Source III


edit on 23-9-2013 by TinkerHaus because: (no reason given)




Luxembourg annual homicide rate:

2008: 2.58
2007: 1.3 -
2006: 1.5
2005: 1.5
2004: 0.5
2003: 1.0
2002: 2.1 -
2001: 2.4 -
2000: 1.8 -
1999: 0.694 8
1998: 0.94
1997: 0.95
1996: 0.96
1995: 0.49

It must also be considered that this is extremely small country with roughly 500k people, so the annual death rate has been under



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by needlenight
 


While I completely understand not taking everything but for it's face value is always a smart choice. The link I provided is just a study that pulls info from every countries crime statistics so in reality it's Denmark's info being quoted as well as other countries in the report. Some really good info in the report IMO.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by Bassago
 


You're not comparing crime rates, just murder rates.

Why not compare all violent crimes? Is it because when you do you see that violent crime rates go up when you take guns out of the equation?

The statistics you're providing intentionally leave out other violent crimes to suit an agenda. This is what I've been talking about this entire thread - you MUST not only compare rates of ALL violent crime, but you must also measure what happens when an armed population is subsequently disarmed. In any instance I can think of in recent history, violent crime rates have gone up.

It is clear that violent crimes happen more in metropolitan areas that suburban or urban areas. The USA has more metropolitan areas than any other country. Just something else to consider when comparing crime rates. On top of this, Luxembourg is one of the richest countries in the world, per capita. When you take poverty out of the equation gun violence drops dramatically in EVERY country. Rich guys with everything they could ask for don't go mug someone for fun.

Additionally, I question your numbers. Your claimed rate of murders in the UK is lower than the Home Office website reports, and they are the authority on crime statistics in the UK.

edit on 23-9-2013 by TinkerHaus because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 01:44 PM
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needlenight
reply to post by GuidedKill
 


let me stop you right there. As I have said in a previous post here. Guns are very restricted here in Denmark. And fact is, that it works for us. Granted we are a small country which helps aswell. But it works for us. From the year 2003 to the year 2011 we have had 100 killings commited with the use of guns. And 90% percent of them are gang related. Hells Angels, Bandidos and various immigrant groups.

*****

Again. As I said in my previous post, it wont work in the U.S. Gun restriction simply wont work in the U.S. But dont tell me that it does not work anywhere, when it clearly does.


That is the problem America has with gun related homicides. At least 70% of shooting victims have been arrested and/or convicted 5 times before getting shot. That finding has been backed by studies in San Francisco, Charlotte, and Milwaukee. Those with a previous criminal record are three times more likely to know the person that shot them. In others words, criminals tend to shoot each other a lot more often. Another study I read a few years ago said that it is estimated 80% or more of all violent crimes including shootings are related to gang and organized criminal activity.

Here is some interesting information from studies done in the US over the last 15 years.


  • Half of the people convicted of murder are on conditional release from jail.
  • 81% of all homicide defendants had an arrest record
  • 67% had a felony arrest record
  • 70% had a conviction record
  • 301 children (age 14 and under) died from gunfire in all of 2010 or less than one per day. That is less than one a day and less than the number of kids that drown in swimming pools.



Another interesting thing is that after the 1968 Firearms Act in England, homicide rates nearly doubled by 1997. After the Amendment act of 1988 homicide rates continued to climb through 1997. Since the 1997 laws they have had a mass shooting spree that lead to 12 deaths and 11 injuries. In 2006 they also had over 7,000 crimes committed with real firearms (as opposed to air or imitation firearms.) Gun related killings and injuries rose by more than four fold between 1997 and 2007.

On the flip side America has seen a decline in violent crime with guns since the mid 1990s. We have also seen a reduction in accidental deaths. During that same time concealed carry laws swept across the nation. Many restrictive local and state laws were repealed or loosened. Gun ownership increased at an exponential rate leading to an estimate (about two years ago) that at any given time at least 30,000 Americans are legally walking around armed.

Crime rates are a complex thing. It can't all be attributed to guns. However, it becomes rather obvious that the correlation of guns and crime is greatly over stated.

While gun control may be working in your country, look at South America to see how some times it has the opposite effect. When Hugo Chavez was running Venezuela the murder rate climbed so high he outlawed the reporting of the official numbers. That was despite very strict gun control. Brazil has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the world, yet it has a homicide rate of 21 per 100,000. It is more than four times higher than the US. Chile on the other hand has a lower homicide rate than America but their laws are in many ways similar to the US. (Their licensing system is similar to getting a concealed carry permit in many US states except for the requirement of needing a "reason." In the US the right to self defense is reason enough.)

It is a deeply complex issue with guns actually playing only a minor role. Criminal culture, it's origins, and it's reason for persisting plays a much bigger role. According to the UN the main reasons for homicide are organized crime and political violence. In a country like the US where many urban areas have a gang problem, it stands to reason that the potential for homicide is higher. You do more to correct the problem by addressing what leads to a criminal lifestyle.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by TinkerHaus
 


The problem is that a violent crime in one country is not even considered worth recording in another...it would be good if we could baseline every crime the same all over the world but having a handgun in the UK and walking down the street in the UK with it on show = serious time, take it to somewhere like Texas and all the police will do is discuss your choice and give recommendations on a better weapon etc



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by TinkerHaus
 


short answer NO

It just means less crime with people getting shot, but i am sure the overall crime level will stay the same.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 02:06 PM
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SadistNocturne

TinkerHaus
Despite trying over and over to show that crime rates and gun ownership rates do no correlate, I was unable to convince these people to even CONSIDER that guns are not the reason violent crimes happen.



Next time you're discussing this with folks from the UK, remind them that their own parliament a few years back was considering a banning of kitchen knives, as they were the highest likely weapon to be used in crimes of passion.



I can't be bothered getting into a discussion about guns, but I'm intrigued as to this proposed ban on kitchen knives in the UK. I can help thinking that'd have been a pretty big story here in Britain - but I don't recall anything of the sort.

You got a UK based link to that story? Or is this one of those stories that the cuckold British media daren't touch, unlike their bold American equivalents - much like the Sharia courts that fill every corner of our green and pleasant land?
edit on 23-9-2013 by KingIcarus because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by Maxatoria
 


Shhh you will sharter the American delusion.

We all know here in the UK we get our homes invaded every month by gangs or armed gangs that our local lords dont keep in check and as soon as we step outside our peasent dwellings we get stabbed and raped only to be rushed to our evil commie NHS hopsitals only to have a death pannel deny our treat and leave us to die.

O how we all long for American Freedom, please Obama come and save us from our tyrant Queen elizabeth II

/Sarcasm






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