Required Reading

I don't know if a similar topic already exists here at ATS, but I thought I would start one.

In my quest for information/research on Area 51 and other facilities, I have read a significant number of books, etc. on the subject. I am sure I haven't read everything out there on the topic, so I would appreciate if those in the know can add their suggestions.

I am going to start with a YEA and NAY selection.

YEA - "The Dreamland Chronicles" by David Darlington. ISBN 0-7515-2671-1
Currently out of print to my knowledge. I found two used copies on Amazon.
This is a MUST READ in my opinion, about the history of the subculture of Area 51 aficionados.
It has the prized spot in my library/bathroom. Whenever I finish reading it, I flip back to the beginning and start again. At least one ATS regular is mentioned in this book.

NAY - Area 51: An Uncensored History of America's Top Secret Military Base by Annie Jacobsen
Never mind the ridiculous Roswell/Russians/Josef Mengele BS in this book, she gets many well known basic facts wrong.

I'm sure Ben Rich's "Skunkworks" should be on the list. Also Steve Davis' "Red Eagles", though I only read the first edition. I would assume the newer edition is better, since that usually is the case.

If you are interested in the history of the NTTR and Nellis in general. two books come to mind. One is Anderegg's "Sierra Hotel". [Greg crashed the F-4 near Alamo.] They keep moving it around, but you can get a PDF of "Sierra Hotel" for free off the internet. Not a pirated pdf, but sanctioned by the USAF. The other is "Boyd: The Figher Pilot that Changed the Art of War." Boyd was so well liked at Nellis that when they blocked out an hour to dedicate the Boyd Auditorium at Nellis, some general cut it back to 30 minutes because that was all Boyd was worth in his opinion. But then Boyd was known for putting out cigars in the ties of generals.

Toss in the hard cover version of Trevor Paglen's "patches" book. I can't see anyone getting that in soft cover since the presentation of the book is half the game.

reply to post by FosterVS


YEA - The new Dulce book by Greg Valdez. Fact-based, level headed and thought provoking.

NAY - Leslie Kean's book. Seems unbiased on the surface, but is not. Got it's #1 case wrong: the Belgian triangle photo hoax. Whoops.

dogshark
reply to post by FosterVS

 

YEA - The new Dulce book by Greg Valdez. Fact-based, level headed and thought provoking.

NAY - Leslie Kean's book. Seems unbiased on the surface, but is not. Got it's #1 case wrong: the Belgian triangle photo hoax. Whoops.

I can write the definitive book on Dulce right here: "Nothing too see folks!"

gariac
If you are interested in the history of the NTTR and Nellis in general. two books come to mind. One is Anderegg's "Sierra Hotel". [Greg crashed the F-4 near Alamo.] They keep moving it around, but you can get a PDF of "Sierra Hotel" for free off the internet. Not a pirated pdf, but sanctioned by the USAF.

www.afhso.af.mil...

FosterVS

gariac
If you are interested in the history of the NTTR and Nellis in general. two books come to mind. One is Anderegg's "Sierra Hotel". [Greg crashed the F-4 near Alamo.] They keep moving it around, but you can get a PDF of "Sierra Hotel" for free off the internet. Not a pirated pdf, but sanctioned by the USAF.

www.afhso.af.mil...

The Weed crash is on page 187. Note he says they slept in the crater that the plane made. Since you have been to the crash site, you know there is no crater, but I suspect that one area of dirt near the road was filled in.

Merlin's Law is "there is always a road to the crash site." This is true, but sometimes the road was there already. That makes this crash site not stand out since they didn't blade a road. Walt Ray's A-12 crash is similar in that respect. Same goes for that F-15 crash near the Cedar Pipeline ranch a few years ago.

gariac

I can write the definitive book on Dulce right here: "Nothing too see folks!"

I guess you haven't read the book. Why are you commenting on it?

dogshark

gariac

I can write the definitive book on Dulce right here: "Nothing too see folks!"

I guess you haven't read the book. Why are you commenting on it?

I haven't read any books on the tooth fairy, but if such a book existed, I would declare "Nothing to see here folks."

This thread started out with a good book on Area 51, plus a bit about the outsiders that are associated with the base. Area 51 exists. I suggested some good books about the TTR (a place that also exists), the NTTR, etc.

Dulce exists, but there is no underground base there, there was no shoot out with space aliens, etc. It is just American Indian land. Nothing to see there.

reply to post by gariac


Okay. I beg to differ. Greg Valdez is a pretty great source of information on what happened in Dulce in the 1970s and 80s. He accompanied his dad on numerous investigations, met Paul Bennewitz and many of the other players during the time. He has access to his dad's files. He's a reasonable, level headed person who works hard in the book to stick to facts and evidence. He offers a few ideas and theories of his own, but they come from evidence and personal experience.

You'll notice I never said there are aliens or a base in Dulce. I said that it's a good book. You obviously have a misconstrued preconception of what's in this book. That's too bad. Maybe if you gave it a chance you'd see things a little differently. The book is not about what you seem to think it is. Far from it.

reply to post by dogshark


So no aliens, but he thinks it's got something to do with atomic and biological weapon tests along with a secret black project aircraft that can fly ultra fast and stop on a dime? Because hey physics doesn't apply when writing a book..

Stealthbomber
reply to post by dogshark

 

So no aliens, but he thinks it's got something to do with atomic and biological weapon tests along with a secret black project aircraft that can fly ultra fast and stop on a dime? Because hey physics doesn't apply when writing a book..

Well, I took more away from it that the aircraft was/is silent (or extremely quiet) and used optical stealth, as opposed to merely "does physically impossible stuff." Sure it's a fantastic story, but not outside the realm of possibility. The weapons testing you mention of course is not fantastical in the slightest.

I get that you guys can be glib, and that people say a lot of nonsense about Dulce. It's easy to write it all off. But reading this book one gets the impression that something extraordinary was definitely happening out there during that time. Keep in mind this was long before anyone started talking about aliens in NM. That stuff came after the fact.

Valdez makes no positive assertions about what the aircraft might have been. He leans more heavily on what evidence they were able to gather, and offers some educated guesses, as I said before. The book encourages people to draw their own conclusions.

Not really stuff that's worthy of blanket dismissal and guffawing. But please, continue if it makes you feel smart.

reply to post by dogshark


How about ultra fast and stopping on a dime?

The deceleration G forces coming to a complete stop from Mach 1 in 1 second would be 31.36G's, you pull those kinda G forces and your going to end up being scraped off the windscreen.

Well I got Annie Jacobs book for a few bucks. They had a pile of cutouts at Half Price Books, plus I used the Labor day sale. I try to be cheap when I know I am buying crap.

Speaking of crap, on the list of total garbage is "The Day after Roswell". I was a big spender on that one. Something like $8 or $9. Look, we didn't get the transistor from space aliens. If we did, those space aliens are nasty practical jokers because the first transistors were bipolar. Good for analog, but the space aliens should of handed us CMOS. If I ever see one of those grays, I'm going to complain!

For good books, "Operation Overflight" is in print again. You won't learn that much about the U-2 since it was most certainly an approved by DoD book, but it is still a great story. Talk about your spy movies in real life, Powers was exchanged on a bridge for some commie spy. There are a few funny bits in the book, like when the commies were playing with his poison needle, or when he was handed a map of Arizona and asked to show where his base was located.

reply to post by Stealthbomber


Yeah that's the point isn't it?
A 5th tier tech bird that has gravity manipulation as part of it's capability.
The vaunted TR3A perhaps?
I don't know for sure but my mil friends in various groups ,Rangers and my ninja buddy seem to think the do have it.
They just cannot completely tell their stories and I don't press out of respect.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


Generally they don't talk about aircraft in tiers, but if you mean 5th gen then yes they do already have one and it's the F-22, I've seen one of them do some pretty awesome stuff but nothing like coming to a complete stop on a dime.

From what I've heard the TR3B and aurora don't exist, as much as I'd like to believe they would.

Back on topic:
Although not specifically Area 51 related I'm currently reading 'Body of secrets' by James Banford seems to be a pretty good spy book

Stealthbomber

How about ultra fast and stopping on a dime?

The deceleration G forces coming to a complete stop from Mach 1 in 1 second would be 31.36G's, you pull those kinda G forces and your going to end up being scraped off the windscreen.

I don't remember reading those exact words or declaration in the book. I'll go back and do a scan for it. But if we're going to talk about a craft doing unusual (if not necessarily impossible) flight stuff, why not start by taking a look at Project Lightcraft?

gariac
Well I got Annie Jacobs book for a few bucks. They had a pile of cutouts at Half Price Books, plus I used the Labor day sale. I try to be cheap when I know I am buying crap.

Speaking of crap, on the list of total garbage is "The Day after Roswell". I was a big spender on that one. Something like $8 or $9. Look, we didn't get the transistor from space aliens. If we did, those space aliens are nasty practical jokers because the first transistors were bipolar. Good for analog, but the space aliens should of handed us CMOS. If I ever see one of those grays, I'm going to complain!

For good books, "Operation Overflight" is in print again. You won't learn that much about the U-2 since it was most certainly an approved by DoD book, but it is still a great story. Talk about your spy movies in real life, Powers was exchanged on a bridge for some commie spy. There are a few funny bits in the book, like when the commies were playing with his poison needle, or when he was handed a map of Arizona and asked to show where his base was located.

I spent $10 and downloaded "Beyond Area 51" by Mack Maloney. Then promptly removed the DRM off it, as it wouldn't allow me to read it on my laptop, after downloading it on my PC.

Not impressed so far, most of the first 30+ pages are spent rehashing Lazar and the imaginary S4. Hope it gets better.

I too wasted money on the Corso book. I am sure there are threads on here about it, but I am assuming most of his claims have been debunked.

Stealthbomber
reply to post by cavtrooper7

 

Back on topic:
Although not specifically Area 51 related I'm currently reading 'Body of secrets' by James Banford seems to be a pretty good spy book

"Body of Secrets" was the first James Bamford book I read. The guy is a very methodical researcher. I then went back and read the earlier "Puzzle Palace." There is a bit of overlap between the books, perhaps assuming nobody would bother to go back to read the older text. If you like "Body of Secrets", I'd suggest getting the "Shadow Factory" as your next Bamford NSA book. The "Puzzle Palace" goes back more into the history of the NSA, touching on Army Signal Intelligence. SIGINT was a big deal during Vietnam, not that much of the gear worked well. Some of the places mentioned in those Bamford books no longer exist. Skaggs Island and Mare Island are now all civilian housing. Two Rock Ranch, which was Army SIGINT, is now used by the Coast Guard.

I think I posted the story on the forum once about the Russian spy the CHP caught trying to sniff signals from either Mare Island or Skaggs and Mount Diablo. The CHP found this van parked by the side of the road with a funny antenna, investigated, and found the Russian with all the comm gear. The P-3 on patrol at the time was given a heads up, but nothing much happened. Well except the Russian got deported. The Navy pulled their gear from Mt. Diablo as far as I know, given that the Skaggs and Mare were shutdown. The Navy repeater on Mt. Diablo chirped for years because they left the site powered, but not maintained.
Skaggs wiki
Mare Island

While I'm sure the NSA does their share of SIGINT these days, it gather they are behave more like internet hackers. The "Shadow Factory" goes into how they tapped the fiber optic cables.

This is an interesting website that shows the fiber optic cable routes, though not exactly, and who owns them.
submarine cable map

I have a few NSA documents I got when I visited the museum they have just off base. [I think it was an old motel at one time. You will be impressed at how ratty it is, given the budget of the NSA.] The document goes into one of the early applications of signal intelligence, namely catching Moonshiners with direction finding gear. [The rest of the story being the southern boys making moonshine drove really fast cars, which lead to NASCAR.]

reply to post by gariac


Thanks for the great write up I'll have to get into Puzzle Factory after I'm finished this one. Do you know how to work out the ciphers at the start of the chapters?

I'm currently reading the part about Operation Northwoods, I'm pretty surprised it hasn't been brought up on here more to do with 9/11, not that I think that's what happened or anything but given the nature of some people from the site

I found it interesting that the NSA could effectively see Russian radar screens during the time Gary Powers was shot down. It would be nice to have a system like that in my study instead of flight aware

Operations Northwoods didn't seem to get very far. It was deemed crazy and got the kibosh. False flags have a tendency to be discovered eventually, so I think the powers that be don't do them often.

I never tried to decode the ciphers because they were already on line. ;-)
solutions

I would have to reread the books again, but my memory was that all we knew was when the Soviets were tracking the U-2, not exactly what was on their screens per se. Effectively, it is the same thing. But radar warning receivers had been around for some time. They would fly the U-2 to encourage the Soviets to turn on their radar and reveal their locations. If you listen to Red Flag recordings, it is common for most radar sites not to be active. For one things, you could get a HARM missile coming at you. So they radiate for short periods. At Red Flag, "Roulette" tells the sites to radiate over land mobile radio. In that dubious IMAX "Operation Fight Pilot" movie, they totally left the ground units out except for some Smokey Sam launches. [Anderegg's book goes into the creation of the Smokey Sam.]

You might be interested in Steve Blank's website and presentations.
Secret History of Silicon Valley