The big bad Bible

Tucket
Also, since we're trying to stick to facts here, Dan Brown didn't create the theory about the council of nicea. I'm not sure who did, but I read about it in a book called "The gods of Eden," which was written well before The Da Vinci Code.

Actually, I believe that Brown's source was Holy Blood, Holy Grail, by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln.

reply to post by Tucket
I cannot say that I know a lot about alchemy, but it appears that other devout Christians, such as Sir Issac Newton also studied alchemy.

reply to post by defcon5
Newton's discovery of the sacred cubit 25.20 actually opened the door to his ability to discover other theriums attributed to him . Or so it would seem ...Much of the mathematics in the great Pyramid at Giza was a contributing factor in his discovery of the sacred cubit ...peace

reply to post by eggman90
That's not really fair man. Christian contributors poured millions into Haiti....yea and they are going to bring some bibles along and yes some shysters do tag along but the man on the street giving to these organizations has his heart in the right place.

reply to post by eggman90

A man adjusts concrete forms at a school under construction in Tabarre Issa, Haiti. The construction is supported by the United Methodist Committee on Relief (UMCOR), as part of its assistance to Haitians affected by the 2010 earthquake. (Source)

Through December, 2010, UMCOR (the United Methodist Committee on Relief) had raised over $43,000,000 for Haitian relief and recovery.

What did you do for Haiti, wise guy? Hopefully something more useful than posting snarky pictures and thinking yourself clever.

reply to post by adjensen


If I may ask a question...which had more to do with that fundraiser? God, or the belief in God? If they had used the flying invisible spaghetti monster as an excuse to raise all that money, which would you credit the success to? Compassionate and gullible people? Or the spaghetti monster?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: religion just gives us a reason to do what we should be doing anyway. I would be satisfied to learn that religion is a kind of midway between animalism and metacognition.

reply to post by AfterInfinity
No other religion gives like christians give. Christians pour millions into a disaster areas where they have long standing local and sometimes part of a world wide religion that cant do anything for the immediate needs of the people. Christians have demonstrated compassion time and again not operating from an excuse.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

If I may ask a question...which had more to do with that fundraiser? God, or the belief in God? If they had used the flying invisible spaghetti monster as an excuse to raise all that money, which would you credit the success to? Compassionate and gullible people? Or the spaghetti monster?

Who cares?

The point is that UMCOR did something tangible that helped, and continues to help (they're still there) the Haitians. How much money did the Flying Spaghetti Monster people raise? How much did you?

Seriously, how about we focus on the good that gets done, instead of trying to win points in arguments with strangers?

reply to post by Tucket


Well..... obviously you seem to have more of a beef with the church (the catholic church). I leave you to battle with theological beliefs that have little basis in scripture. There is the Bible, and then there is the Catholic church. So let me help you with the Bible part, or at least try.

1. The manuscripts have been known for many hundreds of years and were compared to be as precise as is possible. Most of the New testament is in the form of letters. These letters were cherished so they were kept and memorized and finally put into a book we now call the Bible.

2. We are saved by faith not by works. Here's how that works.

All of your works, good or evil and sinful will be judged by the very God who gave you life. Since you already know by your conscience what is good or evil you have no excuse. We shall all stand before God to give account of all of our actions.

Because any sin is as if doing all sin, and breaking one part of God's law as if breaking all of God's law, we have all been found guilty of sin and therefore God rejects sin. In this state upon death we will be rejected by God for sin.

Because of our sin it is impossible to do enough good works to make up for the evil deeds we do. We cannot be pleasing to God in our present condition on our own.

This is where faith comes in.

God, knowing we are hopelessly lost sent His Son to give to us the one thing we lack. Holiness and righteousness. But it is not ours but it belongs to Jesus. In order to give it to us Jesus had to suffer our fate of death, rejection, and hell. Because He was willing to suffer freely for us in our place, Jesus can now offer us His perfect work of love and obedience to God. We become pleasing and acceptable to God through what Jesus did for us.

Now for the faith part.

You either believe that what Jesus Christ did was for you and can save you, or you don't believe.

What do you believe? Do you believe, or no? If not you have no faith and can never be saved in that state. If you were to die as you are, you will pay yourself for all the evil you did, and any good you did will never be mentioned (from the book of Ezekiel).

How you are saved by faith:

If you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died in your place, and that you can be saved in Him, and you ask Jesus to forgive you of all your sins and wrongs that you have done. And then you put your trust and belief in that which He did, you have been saved from death and from sin through His works and not your own which is worthless garbage to God (book of Isaiah.) All of the good you did will be shown when you stand before God and Jesus will confess your name before God and you shall live forever. All of the things you ever did that were wrong or sinful will never be mentioned.

All you need to be saved is faith. No faith means you are doomed to destruction. You will never see life. You must choose one way or the other but you will choose what to believe or not.

None of what I said has a thing to do with organized religion. Organized religion is all about following doctrines made up by people trying to conform you into what they think God is all about. The biggest is the Catholic church. What I said has nothing to do with Saturday afternoon confessionals, hail Marys, works of penance and such things. What I said has everything to do with Jesus, and what He did for you, and your ability to either accept it and live by faith, or reject it and die in unbelief as a sinner against God.

I hope this helps clear it up for you. Now I will stop here so the agnostics, and atheists, and followers of the many world religions can try and attack my words. But since what I said was from the Bible, it cannot be defeated except in the mind of an unbeliever. Do you have faith to believe?

reply to post by Fromabove

Because of our sin it is impossible to do enough good works to make up for the evil deeds we do. We cannot be pleasing to God in our present condition on our own.

This is where faith comes in.

God, knowing we are hopelessly lost sent His Son to give to us the one thing we lack. Holiness and righteousness. But it is not ours but it belongs to Jesus. In order to give it to us Jesus had to suffer our fate of death, rejection, and hell. Because He was willing to suffer freely for us in our place, Jesus can now offer us His perfect work of love and obedience to God. We become pleasing and acceptable to God through what Jesus did for us.

Now for the faith part.

You either believe that what Jesus Christ did was for you and can save you, or you don't believe.

Sounds like all kinds of archaic woo-woo nonsense to me. Like it came straight out of a fantasy novel. Oh wait, it did. It amazes me that people still buy it. Not a very good book at all. The plot is long and drawn out, the characters are delusional, and the good guy dies in the end.

reply to post by Logarock

No other religion gives like christians give. Christians pour millions into a disaster areas where they have long standing local and sometimes part of a world wide religion that cant do anything for the immediate needs of the people. Christians have demonstrated compassion time and again not operating from an excuse.

You can't tell me that heaven and eternal life has nothing to do with the Christian movement. If all Christians were punished severely for every successful conversion, how enthusiastic would they be to spread the word of Jesus? Would they consign themselves to a life of suffering in order to save the lives of others?

Everyone places the importance on accepting Jesus first and loving one another last. If the first is not met, screw the last. Beat them with sticks until the first requirement is met. Loving one another only counts as long as you both believe in the same god and owe your allegiance to the same avatar. More than a few Christians portray this mentality. And as long as they persist, your religion will continue to shoot itself in the foot.

Tucket
Well I think I'm in the right forum.
I just wanted to briefly talk about the theology of Martin Luther. His theology has heavily influenced Christianity since the conception of the King James Bible. The bible itself was written mostly by William Tyndale under the direct guidance of Martin Luther. If Martin Luther introduced his own theology to the bible, then how authentic can we presume the texts to be? There are of course conspiracy theories about Martin Luther being an illuminati, but I ask this question also because of my own experience with the church. I always has difficulty grasping Luther's concept of "you are saved by faith alone," and that my best and worst deeds mean absolutely nothing to God, or that I'm worse than I know, but am washed clean by the blood of Jesus. These concepts confused me. I recall questioning my youth pastor about bible content, and after awhile he said it was just something I had to "wrestle with." This, of course, confused me even more. One might think that God would channel down manuscripts that were clear and concise.

I also wanted to mention the famous conspiracy theory about the Council of Nicea. Naysayers disregard it as garbage, claiming that the council was created to simply "affirm what was already known." But I remain suspicious. We get the gist of what happens today when the douche bags gather together for their councils, meetings, summits etc... it would've been different back then?

On that day when Jesus magically fed 5000 people, its to bad he couldn't also have magically created 5000 indestructible bibles for the peasants as well.

Let me give you a clue, all of this confusion arises because Christianity is complete BS. Everything about it can be traced back to previous religions and cultures thousands of years before Judaism.

I believe in Jesus. I just have trouble with the dogma that surrounds him. It arouses in me a feeling of pretense. I realize there is truth in the bible (Jesus' parables are always great to read), but again, most of texts (especially the old testament) strike me as suspicious. Its just the feeling I get. I just try to have a relationship with him in my own way. If I go to he'll because it, well, maybe there's a chance that my furnace won't be quite as hot as the atheists.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Fromabove

 

Because of our sin it is impossible to do enough good works to make up for the evil deeds we do. We cannot be pleasing to God in our present condition on our own.

This is where faith comes in.

God, knowing we are hopelessly lost sent His Son to give to us the one thing we lack. Holiness and righteousness. But it is not ours but it belongs to Jesus. In order to give it to us Jesus had to suffer our fate of death, rejection, and hell. Because He was willing to suffer freely for us in our place, Jesus can now offer us His perfect work of love and obedience to God. We become pleasing and acceptable to God through what Jesus did for us.

Now for the faith part.

You either believe that what Jesus Christ did was for you and can save you, or you don't believe.

Sounds like all kinds of archaic woo-woo nonsense to me. Like it came straight out of a fantasy novel. Oh wait, it did. It amazes me that people still buy it. Not a very good book at all. The plot is long and drawn out, the characters are delusional, and the good guy dies in the end.

edit on 24-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Like I said, and like you have proven here, you either have faith to be saved, or you have no faith to be lost. It doesn't matter how you spin it, joke about it, or mock it. The Bible says that the unbeliever is the delusional one.

reply to post by Nostrenominon


Hahahhah, empirical statements do not make empirical fact, and that's a fact. Get a time machine so you and everyone else can start throwing around empirical statements around. Ridiculous how many lame brain well educated( brainwashed) jerks are still around,,,, must be true that God loves us all and not one is better than another. Stick that in y'all's crawl.

reply to post by randyvs

Sorry, you are completely wrong and you even know it. You can't serve two masters and the Bible speaks to all of this, in fine fashion.

I know that, according to the standards set by Martin Luther for the Lutheran branch of Christianity, the BTK killer is applicable for admittance to Heaven.

And you're not going to have you're way in the end period.

Your God is powerless to act on Earth.

You think I don't realise when I'm being lead down a path?

I don't have a concern one way or the other. Your path is to follow a murderous tyrant who loves collecting the foreskins of children, and condemning those who don't believe in Him to eternal punishment for finite crimes. If that's the path you want to walk, be my guest.

Radar wasn't a BAC at the same time he was out commiting murders.

According to Martin Luther faith in God is all you need, your works do not matter. Whether the BTK killer was thinking of Jesus while he murdered is irrelevant in God's eyes. That he murdered the innocent is irrelevant in God's eyes. The BTK killer belonged to a Lutheran church, and faithfully practiced his belief. He was a righteous man, according to the standards set by Martin Luther.

If you believe that, ? I don't give a crap, believe away.

If it bothers you that your faith allows for criminals and those of evil to be righteous, then the fault lies with your religion, and your belief, not with me.

As far as him becoming born again after words. You know damn well, only God knows what's truly in a mans heart. So that's between them two alone.

The BTK killer wasn't born again afterward, he was born again before he started killing.

Are you jealous that Radar might possibly end up a servent of the LORD and you won't ? Well, that's between you and him and it's not right for me to judge.

Why would I ever be jealous of somebody who get's to go spend all day praising a genocidal tyrant? My idea of "bliss" is not heaven, and my idea of the perfect being is definitely not Jesus or God.

You want to Judge God ? Good luck ! You can have you're measley lil problem. I think you're being ridiculous.

I think someone is angry that I proved a serial killer is going to Heaven. And I already judged God and found him unfit for worship. Hence, I don't worship Him.

So I guess you think you're God or something, cause you pretend to know what only God can know.

Please show me anywhere that I have said I am the Christian deity. I'll be waiting. Got any more ad hominem attacks for me? I do find them oh so childish, and quite revealing about the Christian mentality when confronted with undeniable facts.

If Radar does find favor with God ? Believe me, you or I won't have a damn thing to say about it any way.

Big bad God gonna come and strike me down for calling him a friend to murderers and serial killers. I'll be waiting. God knows where I live right? Or do I need to help Him find me too?

My retort is complete and I feel we may be off topic, so make your final comment if you like. No more questions please.

The BTK killer was part of a Luthern Church, this thread is about whether the philosophy of Lutheranism is accurate. I am postulating that, if Luther's philosophy is accurate, then a killer like the BTK will be admitted to Heaven. We are not off topic at all, you're just uncomfortable because your useless parroting of religious ideologies cannot disprove my stance.

Have fun in Heaven with all the serial killers!

~ Wandering Scribe

Wandering Scribe
I know that, according to the standards set by Martin Luther for the Lutheran branch of Christianity, the BTK killer is applicable for admittance to Heaven.

That is not according to Martin Luther, its according to the Bible and repeated in it multiple times.
The thing is that all of us are equal, and all sin is equal. What seems to us as a minor infraction of a sin is just as egregious to God as the most major of sins. Only man puts measure to sin, not God. All sin is infinitely bad when compared to his infinite holiness. So with that in mind, you should be thankful that even the worst sinners can be forgiven, because that includes you, whether you realize it or not.

Wandering Scribe
Your God is powerless to act on Earth.

I don't know where you get this from, its certainly not accurate. While the Earth is Satan's realm, and we are stuck in his system, that does not mean that God does not have the power to act here. It's more along the lines that its often not in our own ultimate best interest that we get what we ask for. God is not worried about your discomfort while here on this planet, he is worried about you, and others you have an effect on's, ultimate fate of salvation. Earth is meant to be a punishment after all, and while here we are subject to the law and to being in Satan's realm. However he can guide you, and others, down the correct path, but that sometimes means putting someone through the fire to refine them to pure gold.

Too many folks think that God is like a gumball machine, where if you put in enough prayers (dimes), you get the toy that you want back out of it. That is not how it works, and God never said that it does work that way. People who believe this lose their faith the first time that something important does not seem to go their way, or something tragic happens in their lives.

Wandering Scribe
According to Martin Luther faith in God is all you need, your works do not matter.

Again, this is in the bible:

Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Romans 3:21-24
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved.And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.

Timothy 1:8-10
So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

All Luther did was point this out to end the abuses that the Roman Catholic Church was using against it's members to fleece them for money through the use of fear and guilt.

Wandering Scribe
If it bothers you that your faith allows for criminals and those of evil to be righteous, then the fault lies with your religion, and your belief, not with me.

If you've ever looked at a member of the opposite (or I guess any) sex with lust in your heart, you've committed adultery just as much as if you actually did the act itself.
If you have ever felt anger and wished harm one anyone, you've committed murder in your heart as surely as if you actually done it for real.

The punishments for these acts come from society and mans laws, to God they are sins the same as any other. If truly repentant, any sin may be forgiven by God. The question is, are some of these folks you mention truly repentant? We have no way to tell as we cannot judge their heart, but I'll tell you what, that is why even a man condemned to the death penalty is allowed to have a priest and is told “may God have mercy on your soul” before the execution. They will pay their price to man for breaking mans laws, but you can never repay any sin to God as they are all infinite and equal. So all sin is covered under grace, equally, or no one would be saved.

Wandering Scribe
Big bad God gonna come and strike me down for calling him a friend to murderers and serial killers. I'll be waiting. God knows where I live right? Or do I need to help Him find me too?

You know who Christ spent most of his time with while on Earth? The "dregs" of society; prostitutes, tax collectors, horribly disfigured contagious folks, roman soldiers, etc... You know why? Because these folks were the meek of the Earth. They knew they had problems, but were open to being helped, and to becoming better. They weren't full of self pride, false self righteousness, and considered themselves “better then everyone else”. Those folks were what Christ referred to a pharisee’s, and whom he told would be the last to ever enter heaven.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

You know why the pharisees hated Christ and eventually had him put to death? For many of the same reasons you are giving.

Tucket
I believe in Jesus. I just have trouble with the dogma that surrounds him. It arouses in me a feeling of pretense. I realize there is truth in the bible (Jesus' parables are always great to read), but again, most of texts (especially the old testament) strike me as suspicious. Its just the feeling I get. I just try to have a relationship with him in my own way. If I go to he'll because it, well, maybe there's a chance that my furnace won't be quite as hot as the atheists.

My suggestion is don't let the doom and gloomers worry you.There is ZERO Truth in the doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell.It is not in the scriptures at all and most importantly is not the character of God.There is no furnace to be hotter for the atheist.They are no different than anyone else except some of them are just as disagreeable as Christians.

There is no "method" to be saved.There is no one that is "saved in the past tense or ever will be.Salvation (deliverance) is not an event it's an infinite process(growth).God is saving EVERYONE not just the "elitist" that believe they are better than everyone because they believe a false doctrine of men.

On that note...God is not pardoning anyone for their guilt.Everyone is 100% accountable for everything they do.Forgiveness means being freed from bondage. ..which everyone will be.It does not mean being pardoned by saying a prayer or believing a doctrine or any method.

The false doctrines of religion are legion.My suggestion is be prepared to drop any of them you have.God is very capable of communicating what he wants known...it's all much more simple than the religious carnal mind makes it out to be.No one has ever chose God...God does all the choosing.It is the most normal thing there is.No religion required or allowed.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Well said!