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At Least 420,000 years ago they killed elephants or scavaged? (Palaeoloxodon antiquus) Probably kill

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posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 02:57 PM
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Excavation revealed a deep sequence of deposits containing the elephant remains, along with numerous flint tools and a range of other species such as; wild aurochs, extinct forms of rhinoceros and lion, Barbary macaque, beaver, rabbit, various forms of vole and shrew, and a diverse assemblage of snails. These remains confirm that the deposits date to a warm period of climate around 420,000 years ago, the so-called Hoxnian interglacial, when the climate was probably slightly warmer than the present day.



"Early hominins of this period would have depended on nutrition from large herbivores. The key evidence for elephant hunting is that, of the few prehistoric butchered elephant carcasses that have been found across Europe, they are almost all large males in their prime, a pattern that does not suggest natural death and scavenging. Although it seems incredible that they could have killed such an animal, it must have been possible with wooden spears.. We know hominins of this period had these, and an elephant skeleton with a wooden spear through its ribs was found at the site of Lehringen in Germany in 1948."


phys.org...

I know many at ATS believe modern man has been around longer than what is usually reported in mainstream science. I thought this was a worthy article if for no other reason than the time line presented in the findings..




posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by 727Sky
 

From the link...


"Early hominins of this period would have depended on nutrition from large herbivores. The key evidence for elephant hunting is that, of the few prehistoric butchered elephant carcasses that have been found across Europe,

Read more at: phys.org...


I love the way they use the word "hominins". These are more primitive than modern humans? I can't fashion a spear with a stone point and bring down an elephant with it. Does that make me more or less primitive?



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 



Unfortunately I couldn't get the link to come up

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No It just makes you unskilled with an older form of technology which is currently little used in western culture.

Modern people can bring down an elephant with a spear. Pgymies use to hunt elephants by sneaking up on them, jamming a spear into their belly and following them for 2-3 days until they died. The use of poison is another way to do so with more safety. Male elephants who don't have a harem travel alone and are easier to attack, especially by a group of hunters, females travel in groups and are far more dangerous.

Hominins is the general term used to describe the 'human' tribe under the subfamily Homininae and the family Hominidae

In this case they may be talking about HHS (Homo heidelbergensis) but that is a guess as I couldn't see the original link

Edited to add: I found the article under a different path and yeah they may talking about HHS or other earlier cousin.


edit on 21/9/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


I am sure you could with the help of a tribe. Early humans and even tribes in the amazon hunt together. Think about how packs of dogs can take down much bigger prey. Strength in numbers.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 03:35 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 

You can also run them over a cliff...

My point was more to fashioning a point (from stone) and piercing the hide of an elephant with it. Thats one inch of thick skin covering a very large pissed off pachyderm. Running up and jabbing it with a stick is not my idea of securing meat. More like suicide.

It involves work with (the right) stone, drawn sinew, stiff wood and fire, heat curing of saps and stuff. I am clueless. Have you ever tried that? I wouldn't last a day there, they would probably dispatch me because I am slow, dim witted, and spoil the hunt by crashing around in the brush. I can't hunt, build a fire, butcher a carcass or hike for miles on little water in the sun.

I am the primitive human.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 03:42 PM
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intrptr
reply to post by 727Sky
 

From the link...


"Early hominins of this period would have depended on nutrition from large herbivores. The key evidence for elephant hunting is that, of the few prehistoric butchered elephant carcasses that have been found across Europe,

Read more at: phys.org...


I love the way they use the word "hominins". These are more primitive than modern humans? I can't fashion a spear with a stone point and bring down an elephant with it. Does that make me more or less primitive?


About 4 months ago I was standing next to an elephant who insisted on sticking his trunk into my pocket looking for more nuts which I had already ran out of. She was a persistent pachyderm and in an elephant kind of way she was not joking. I can not imagine hunting a beast that was twice the size of her or today's African variety and up to four times the weight of family car with a primitive spear tipped with stone... Even though flint in many cases can be sharper than a modern scalpel I think it would be a long drawn out dangerous task; besides I like elephants....Still trying to pay some Karma back for being part of a killing of one over 40 years ago.
edit on 21-9-2013 by 727Sky because: she
edit on 21-9-2013 by 727Sky because: ..



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 03:45 PM
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Grimpachi
reply to post by intrptr
 


I am sure you could with the help of a tribe. Early humans and even tribes in the amazon hunt together. Think about how packs of dogs can take down much bigger prey. Strength in numbers.

Agreed. Hunting Parties.

Looking at the numerous and different types of animals in the one find, they were obviously successful at it. Putting myself in their stead I would want to kill with as little potential harm to my self.

Driving herds by fire or "beating the brush' over cliffs, into pit traps or dead falls, dropping rocks on them, all would be group activity too. Must have been something to see.

Personally I think they were as "advanced" (capable) as we are, just haven't built up as much "technology" as us.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:07 PM
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Just to add in: The oldest known hunting site is in Africa of course, the two million-year-old Kanjera South site

Oldest hominin hunting site



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


Actually I did as part of my studies we recreated the production of earlier weaponry, however we got our raw materials from the abattoir, actually a fire harden point was pretty effective but a stone tip would cause the animal to bleed more. We followed techniques learned from Ishii, New Guinea tribes, Amazon tribes, of pygymies and Khoi.

The atlatl helped a great deal what we consider a spear today was a thrusting spear. The B & A probably came out of the dart used in the atlatl which was meant to wound or deliver poison.

Of course another way to hunt is to scavange

From my link above




The site also contains a large number of isolated heads of wildebeest-sized antelopes. In contrast to small antelope carcasses, the heads of these somewhat larger individuals are able to be consumed several days after death and could be scavenged, as even the largest African predators like lions and hyenas were unable to break them open to access their nutrient-rich brains
edit on 21/9/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


The use of the word Hominins is because it is no longer clear what specific variety or probable species these things can be attributed to.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by 727Sky
 

You must work with them, just wondering?

I could not imagine killing one up close and personal either. But we see through our "modern" eyes.

They did it though for hunting, from your link...


Although it seems incredible that they could have killed such an animal, it must have been possible with wooden spears.. We know hominins of this period had these, and an elephant skeleton with a wooden spear through its ribs was found at the site of Lehringen in Germany in 1948."

Read more at: phys.org...

That could have been a coup de grace blow but who knows? Hunger is a prime motivator.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Outstanding on learning that craft. I respect your knowledge in these areas and have enjoyed learning from your posts. They also had throwing sticks right? Like launchers for spears that increased the velocity. I forget what they are called but add so much to range and penetration.

When I saw that development by "early" man, I wowed at their intelligence. Those would have of made it easier to attack from a distance but still deliver somewhat accurate, punishing blows.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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intrptr
reply to post by 727Sky
 

From the link...


"Early hominins of this period would have depended on nutrition from large herbivores. The key evidence for elephant hunting is that, of the few prehistoric butchered elephant carcasses that have been found across Europe,

Read more at: phys.org...


I love the way they use the word "hominins". These are more primitive than modern humans? I can't fashion a spear with a stone point and bring down an elephant with it. Does that make me more or less primitive?


But the old monkey men can't play angry birds.

So we win.

... sadly, if all the world came to a halt, it's the people playing angry birds that wou;ld be first on the menu of those who could manufacture a stone tool and fix it to a straightened length of wood.

Hmm Hmm, pringles...
edit on 21-9-2013 by winofiend because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


A simple rock is a deadly weapon if you think of the accuracy of an American baseball pitcher or football quarter ack you can imagine just how much damage you could do with a half kilo rock. Sticks and clubs work fine too but its hard to kill an animal instantly and some of them you don't want to get to close to when they are wounded. So one good way is to wound them, keep them moving so the wound won't close, they will bleed until they collapse - and you have dinner.

Samual Baker a Victorian gentleman use to hunt stags with just a knife, he would run them down until they were exhausted and kill them.

Man I believe can run down any other animal due to our superior cooling system.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by intrptr
 


We are the product of the cyborg generation. Nothing more. We've given up this ability because we've let others do all the hard work for us. We've let go of our own knowledge because we don't need to do these things.

Why learn how to make the tools to take down a kill, when you can pop along to the store and buy more meat than you could ever kill responsibly.

I agree, we've become rather dim. We could not last a week in an environment - the one right outside our houses now - without the houses.. and the air conditioners.. lights, tv, internet, stove, microwave, toaster..

Try telling the kids that these days and you're met with dismissive apathy.


I feel like some old fart from the 1800's these days.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:44 PM
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intrptr
reply to post by 727Sky
 

You must work with them, just wondering?

I could not imagine killing one up close and personal either. But we see through our "modern" eyes.

They did it though for hunting, from your link...


Although it seems incredible that they could have killed such an animal, it must have been possible with wooden spears.. We know hominins of this period had these, and an elephant skeleton with a wooden spear through its ribs was found at the site of Lehringen in Germany in 1948."

Read more at: phys.org...

That could have been a coup de grace blow but who knows? Hunger is a prime motivator.



No I do not work with them but in many parks in Thailand they are there for a photo op or feeding. We even see them downtown on occasion...Poop and all... makes for an interesting motorcycle ride...
Picture a few guys with the Atlatl during a stand off hunt... No proof they were used with this thread but the Atlatl supposedly preceded the bow.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by winofiend
 


Don't forget that not everyone in the world is as urbanised as Americans are!

There are still about a half billion slash and burn farmers around, a few hundred thousand part time hunter-gathers and fisherfolks. Some places in the world are so 'backwards' that if the modern world disappeared they would do just fine. Small scale farmers make up 1 to 1 /2 billion people too and they make due with minimal technology.
edit on 21/9/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 05:53 PM
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This is a fun time for me to watch this forum since my 4-way Anthropology intro course is covering much the same things. (checks class notes from the 18th...)

Homo Sapien was 1.5 Million to 100,000 years ago with Homo Sapien Neaderthal overlapping by about 30k to run 130,000 to 30,000 years ago. Modern man, as current courses (REAL current..lol) are teaching it is dated 100,000 to present and of course, Homo Sapien Sapien.

You know what gets me the most though, when hearing the stats in class? It's hearing the context and background for when and how those numbers were reached. In many cases, our understanding of the deep past is just one happy accident of a cave discovery or a highway exposing new ruins from being a whole lot less than it is now.

So I can't help but wonder? Just how much is out there to contradict or greatly add to what we know by just such finds as this and other 'happy accidents'? Man hasn't even been deep yet in any sense like this for the soil and time as it's represented there.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 08:26 PM
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Hanslune
reply to post by winofiend
 


Don't forget that not everyone in the world is as urbanised as Americans are!

There are still about a half billion slash and burn farmers around, a few hundred thousand part time hunter-gathers and fisherfolks. Some places in the world are so 'backwards' that if the modern world disappeared they would do just fine. Small scale farmers make up 1 to 1 /2 billion people too and they make due with minimal technology.


Right you are and thanks for pointing that out. I forgot I live in a big city.

Doesn't everyone?



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by winofiend
 


I agree, we've become rather dim. We could not last a week in an environment - the one right outside our houses now - without the houses.. and the air conditioners.. lights, tv, internet, stove, microwave, toaster..

Try telling the kids that these days and you're met with dismissive apathy.

I feel like some old fart from the 1800's these days.
p/quote]
Me too. But trying to get their attention is rather difficult. They are always staring at something they carry around in their hand.

On the other hand, back when, we worked on race cars, we reloaded bullets, we built the computer age they dismissively enjoy the s*** out of. How about a little gratitude, huh kids?





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