There is no other way to say it. When one tries to get these ideas across in a manner which is true to the material, one finds that verbal illustration and example are the best means of communicating ideas on analogy relation between various true systems. The language I have used is as plain as I can make it without tossing in astrological alchemy mixed with mathematical analogy, and then scare people. This is essentially a language, like french or Latin, and how does one talk of French without using some French. This is a powerful and highly effective form of thought, which is the basis of the more illuminating symbol systems people have been grappling with for centuries in their quest for understanding. It is also the basis for the ruling conspiratorial culture in the West and possibly the world over.

I doubt you can even remotely prove that nature does not create realities, for reality exists and continually recreates itself. Creativity itself is natural, and creativity can be studied from a primordial perspective, a perspective which can be expressed in terms which can't be argued against effectively, as much as brushed off as non-existant. The definition of realites I use is I think a bit more broad and analogy-based than what you think of\when you here the word "reality." The system takes into account how nature creates realities of all kinds by the way, and human crativity qualifies as nature creating realities. And these ideas are used in this systematic, symbolic manner all of the time by people other than myself (they make millions doing it).

There is a key to reality which is in wide use today, and I have designed my own version of it based on my study of its use by others, and my version is effective, though rather "childish" compared with that used by the initiated. This key was used to design Freemasonry by the way. Maybe most Masons don't hide secret knowledge, but Freemasonry does because it is basically just another culture-based symbolic encryption of this system. I am also convinced that only a percentage of Masons know of what I am stating here. There is also a "secret power" which can be conceptualized in a number of archetypal fashions. Also, the occult as it is popularly understood today is simply purposeful disinformation, thus it contains a distorted truth mixed with lies (blinds), and that culture is also laced heavily with this symbol system, which remains true as it is used there too.

Now this whole schizophrenic arguement is getting a little silly. You are removing my statements from context. I did not state that schizophrenics have difficulty expressing. I stated that they have difficulty expressing ideas in a systematic fashion. Of course all schizophrenics are not created equal, and the issue of schizophrenia is way complex, with differing manifestations of the disease process. Suffice it to say that where there is difficulty with cognition, there will be difficulty in expressing ideas in a sensible, systematic fashion. Making sense of their predicament is a classic schizophrenic dilemma. The idea that everything they embody as schizophrenics is purely delusional is short-sighted at best. Often they can tune into ideas and relationships most "sane people" ignore, but they can't tune in on the ideas in a sensible fashion. Schizophrenia is in many respects just plain chaotic. Also, this misfiring of neurons in the brain might be a physiological symptom associated with schizophrenia, which again is a complex process which can be understood from very many perspectives, each with its own brand of insight to offer, but is not by any means the source of the voices. These voices they hear might be of their relatives threatening them, or any number of other influences. Sometimes it is thinking running amok, which a misfiring of neurons might be associated with. The issue has been studied quite effectively, taking into account meaning behind schizophrenic behavior and cognition. The idea that there is no meaning to dellusion is based on a specific perspective which has proven no more effective than other perspectives. The people who designed the system I use though do understand schizophrenia as uncontrolled decay of the soul, not unlike the decay of radioactive materials analogy-wise (soul is memory, a form of talent, which can decay).

No, you cannot prove anything empiracally. All we have is the agreed upon evidence of our senses. HOWEVER, to postulate that belief creates reality is a concept that is so far removed from reality as to BE schizophrenic.

Reality... is. It is the shared experiences upon which we can all agree. 2 plus 2 equals four. A hammer released from a stationary position falls. This is reality. The rest of which you assert is what is called wishful thinking... fun, a vacation for the rational mind, but not a place to try to live...

Claims to the contrary are viewed as the ravings of a deranged man... be careful, lest they come for you with a canvass overcoat and butterfly nets... and thorazine.

There you people go again reading into my statements your own wrong thought. I never stated that belief creates reality. I said that belief is by nature provisional, and should promise knowledge to be gained via hard work ("journey"); faith is a childish condition which gives way to "adult" knowledge. You people are too eager to accuse someone of schizophrenia by the way, as though desiring to avoid direct arguement out of fear. I have noticed that avoidance of an issue is a standard argumentative tactic used against me specifically.

Consciousness creates our reality, and consciousness is emendable to suggestion

Originally posted by Tesla
Consciousness creates our reality, and consciousness is emendable to suggestion

No,...

Consciousness creates PERCEPTION. Perception is an attempt to UNDERSTAND reality. Reality cannot be altered. It IS what it IS... A Fact's a Fact, Jack. Perception of it can be altered. Consciousness is frequently altered...

I agree with you Scorpio Shaping Flow, that a handful of men have more influence than most would think; and that they work through Occult Fraternities; and that they also utilize Astral Projection.

I won't pretend to know too much about specifics or even agree with some of the other stuff you've said; however, I can also agree that some of these doubters and misinformants are using some pretty lame tricknowledge, as to try to discredit everything you say.

Traveling in the Astral Plane(Hod) is common knowledge amongst Esotericists, Occultists, Yogis, etc. and those who practice(d) ancient religions.


One thing though:

Dark is the element of Fire and also God, while light is the element of Water or Goddess.

I believe you have this backwards.

Traditionally:

Yang = Fire = Knowledge = Masculine = Sun = Light

Yin = Water = Wisdom = Feminine = Moon/Earth




Peace

Originally posted by Tamahu
I agree with you Scorpio Shaping Flow, that a handful of men have more influence than most would think; and that they work through Occult Fraternities; and that they also utilize Astral Projection.

I won't pretend to know too much about specifics or even agree with some of the other stuff you've said; however, I can also agree that some of these doubters and misinformants are using some pretty lame tricknowledge, as to try to discredit everything you say.

Traveling in the Astral Plane(Hod) is common knowledge amongst Esotericists, Occultists, Yogis, etc. and those who practice(d) ancient religions.


One thing though:

Dark is the element of Fire and also God, while light is the element of Water or Goddess.

I believe you have this backwards.

Traditionally:

Yang = Fire = Knowledge = Masculine = Sun = Light

Yin = Water = Wisdom = Feminine = Moon/Earth




Peace

Travelling in the Astral Plane is a by-ptroduct of a neurological condition (relatively harmless) called "sleep paralysis." I used to astral travel as a child. I can still manage it, but it's become more difficult in recent years. The "Astral" does not represent physical reality. You are not actually anywhere on the physical plane, and others who are awake do not see your 'astral body." Although I am ready to entertain theories that it is indeed a far deeper level of consciousness, NO ONE can influence events via astral travel. At least, not demonstrably. A person CAN, however, avail themselves of the wisdom and unique perspecives that astral travel offers, thanks to a little error in timing between the brain and the rest of the body just before falling asleep.

Astral projection simply refers to "projecting" the astral plane onto physical reality while wide awake. A person usually wakes up "in th astral" without actually having to go through the process of getting there. It's easier, but not as stimulating. I used to project far more than actaully travel, incidentally. I can no longer manage to project, however, just travel, and even that becomes a bit of a pain these days thanks to the "negative entities" (more astral lingo, lol) that pop up now and then.

Yes, astral travel is indeed esoterica, and no, it is not demonstrably magical or physically influential, aside from being quite an interesting trip, thanks to a totally harmless but rare neurological imbalance.

Only a very small percentage of the population has this little quirk, by the way. Plus, if you're a Mason and you've got it, well, you're just that much cooler.





[edit on 16-11-2004 by LTD602]

[edit on 16-11-2004 by LTD602]

Astral projection is itself a complex issue, and those I speak of are the champions in ragards the ability to project. They do it powerfully, even to the point fo being able to make crop circles using astral ritual. Accidental projection might send you anywhere, or you might stick around here in the astral dimension which alows one to interact with our reality. Their monopoly on the world's illumination makes it easy for them to astral project. It is much more difficult for us "darkened down" folk. But the cool thing is, practice will still build talent, and talent is catalytic in nature, therefore it attracts illumination. I have seen them in the astral one time upon awakening one morning (they look ghost white), and their symbolically encrypted culture centers on tis practice heavily, and on the practice of astral vampirism. The "alchemical document" called The Rocky Horror Picture Show, with its motorcycle analogy for astral body and Time Warp, is an example I am studying now. They spend quite a bit of time astral and in touch with our reality in order to feed and to spy. They can spend six plus hours astral projected. They also wear protective clothing to project, to protect their sleeping bodies from other vampires. In fact, it is wise to sleep fully covered, with multiple layers of bed-cloths and heavy covers to keep as much of your own illumination as possible.

In their system:

Fire = Learning = Circumstance = Lunar cycle = Dark = God = King = Father = Death = Tense-state = precipitant = Aries/Scorpio/Sagittarius

Water = Intuition = Reality Matrix = Stars = Light (Illumination) = Goddess = Queen = Mother = Life = Flow-state = solvent = Taurus/Gemini/Libra

Air = Knowledge = Understanding = Star = Sol = Princess = Daughter = Alive (Awake) = Peak-state = Catalyst = Leo/Virgo/Capricorn

Earth = Believing ("Un-Knowledge") = Vehicle (the physical brain and body) = Moon (as in dead rock) = Shape = Prince = Son = Dead (Asleep) = Ground-state = Precipitate = Cancer/Aquarius/Pisces

This class of people designed esoteric tradition as a "hedge-maze" or disinformation system which can be used as path towards their hidden system.

Well, fair enough. I respectfully disagree with a number of your points. Your physical body is at NO RISK whatsoever when astral travelling. You will always return and be just fine, since you are, in effect, still IN your body (it is a neurological state that can allow for potentially profound experiences, yes I have had some, but that's where it ends.) You seem to think AT/AP can influence physical reality. It cannot demonstrably do this. I don't buy the vampirism bit, either. Apologies.

In any case, I'm sure we can both agree that it can be a rewarding experience for the pserson who is both comfortable with it and is unafraid to explore that part of their psyche.

I'm of the mind that it is simply a neurological state (as medical science proves) that allows you to very simply, manipulate REM sleep (if travelling) and be able to initiate hallucinations and control them (when projecting) and nothnig more. What you get out of it is up to you. To put it very simply, you get the head-trip without the drugs, hehe . . . .

Obviously, if you enjoy it
and explore it, you'll be rewarded bit by bit. As I said, I did it alot as a child, and extremely rarely nowadays. Seems there is some kind of stimuli that makes the neurological imbalance more pronounced, that is now absent or much less frequent. Zen would indeed be useful in this regard - meditation can bring you into the desired state a little faster and easier. You have to be CALM in order to do it, anyway. I've never tried it that way, though.

In any case, an interesting thread.

Their encrypted communications are quite clear on their process of astral projection. They divide the various experiences one can attain according to which astral vehicle one occupies while projected. The astral body used in dreams is different from the one used to see our reality from an invisible perspective. The one used to travel our reality from a just-out-of-dimension perspective is more dense and also "weaker" than the dream version. In a dream, one can be stabbed by a knife, and feel nothing (one can experiment with this), and the puncture wound left is but a mark on the body at best, which disappears while you get caught up in dialing 911 and then struggle with keeping just two ones on the telephone LCD because extra ones keep appearing. The astral vehicle they use to spy and eat with, and which they can chain to a bed as a "junk car" (Rocky in Rocky Horror), is more subject to damage, and might "die," requiring much in the way of discipline to actively repair faster than it might heal on its own via repeated attempts at astral projection, etc.... Our\reality will appear quite stable to them, but you can use your imagination while awake to create forcefield which they experience and you do not, because you are awake, and they are astral. I know this because they alter my dreams to indicate that they "saw the pretty light; they can get into your dreams by astral projecting right into them while they use your sleeping body as a crystal ball." In their symbolic encryptions, they even speak of astral combat with casualties (loss of aura and illumination) and everything (Fight Club is about astral combat). In fact, astral vampirism occurs around a bed where a sleeping body (which can bcome a crystal ball) and its etheric-astral body floating near by is attacked with rape, surgery, and other forms of violence (Eyes Wide Shut is about the sexual element). This process can result in physical symptoms felt upon aakening, including numbness or even chronic pain, but ussually the attacks are not perceived physically, and one has to know to tune into what the aura feels to feel where the brain surgery occured. They can cut parts off of your vehicle and "consume" them like meat to keep their own vehicles up.

The reason the "brain misalignment" slows down with age is because it is orgone energy (Illumination) which makes the process occur easily. In Rocky Horror, this Water elemental illumination is symbolized by falling, whether it is a Libra character sliding or fainting, a handle falling so an image may appear in the mind's eye symbolized by the video monitor (I've done this by holding the image of the Sun in my imagination until imagery of a particularly lucid nature appeared spontaneously; the focus attracts the illumination), or a tower falling into a pool of water (symbolizing loss of illumination). One practices meditation, holding a focus while actively staying awake until trance and then exit symptoms happen (in a nutshell).

None of the known lodges use this system openly, but the O.T.O. Crowley deck I use is encrypted with the system. The system is effectively synonymous with the hidden organization which rules all lesser organizations of any importance. I think of them as the illuminati, and one can learn this system studying everything - even sci-fi and horror movies. they use it everywhere, and nature uses it too.

I haven't decided yet if they use the etheric double, which would be more strongely animated for them than for us, or if it is simply the appropriate astral body for the job they use. Some kind of energy-body has to stay with the body while it sleeps in order for the body to stay alive. It is more likely that it is the etheric double which is attacked though, and illumination is drawn out of the sleeping body itself as they visit. Maybe the etheric double divides and the two bodies are the linked by a cord. They like for the head to remain uncovered at the very least, and preferably the whole body, so the body is targeted, but then clothing isn't perfect in the protection it offers, so a double floating above the body might become the subject of attack. They can use suggestion to motivate your sleeping body to remove gloves and then untie multiple double knots used to secure hoods.

Those would be bodies tailor made for specific realms which are representative of a "specific vibe," which correspond to the seven major chakras. Some schools on the subject of astral bodies teach that a wide range of astral bodies project from the body, which would indicate that a body could be built specifically to observe our reality from an astral perspective. The solar element of the process involves the development of talent, which is essentially momentum - the catalytic "spark of life," etc.... I would imagine that the etheric double could be "made strong and fast" if enough illumination were present. I have to rely quite a bit on their symblically encrypted communications, as wel las my own rather limited experience. So, I will have to wait for that day when the idea finally hits in a clear manner.

The eye represents the Egyptian god Osiris as the all seeing eye...

[edit on 16-11-2004 by d1k]