At least 11 shot at chicago park

reply to post by Galvatron


You have to understand what is going on here in USA.

Do you know how many guns get lost (aka stolen) from those who sell guns. According to NPR, this is how many gun sellers work - write it as stolen and sell it without background check.

IMHO, those selling guns should be under better control and should be hold responsible for not being able to protect guns from being 'stolen' (which they really are not).

reply to post by SuperFrog


You'll have to be more specific.

Let's role play.

I'm a an evil straw-buyer and you be a Crip or Blood or P-Stone or whatever.

For this exercise I'm going to give you any law or registration scheme you want, okay? In the interest of time I'll assume you want all the most ridiculous stuff.

So though my low-life cousins or whatever I hear you want a gun. Being the only person in my family who can pass a background check and also being hurt for money I agree to help you out.

I go to a shop, pick out a crappy HiPoint for $200. So I pass my check but still have to wait two weeks. (assuming all the stupid laws are enacted.) Two weeks later I go in to pick it up. I have to pass another check for ammo. I pass it. I'm limited to one box of 50 rounds a decade. I buy it. The gun is registered to me alone and it has to be checked on every week.

I take it home and my cousin calls you up. He meets you and get the $300 we agreed upon. I give the gun to him, he takes the money from you. A few days pass and I call to report the gun stolen from my vehicle.

You take that gun and the 50 bullets and murder 50 genius children all on their way to church to cure cancer and AIDS and whatever else it is children do.

Which law saved how many kids?

Or, let's skip[ the gun shop altogether. I cant pass a check but I've been a B&E man since high school and I've stolen my share of hardware. Let's skip the background checks and regitries altogether. You want a gun? I've at least a dozen I've acquired over the past 5 years of burglarizing. Which one you want?

Now which law saved how many kids?

Instead of wasting time and resources with "we have to do something!" nonsense how about we actually think things through for a change?

TKDRL
reply to post by James1982

 

True to a point, but you are a lot more likely to be in a gang, just for being born into the wrong "hood", or being born into a gang family.

I'd agree, but I don't see how that effects calling gang bangers animals. You are more likely to be a sexual offender if you were abused, that doesn't make them any less of an animal if they do it.

Being a gang banger means being a violent criminal, being country doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't matter how you got there, it matters what you do.

reply to post by SuperFrog


NPR eh? Was it an op-ed piece or was it cold hard fact? Have you ever been in a gun store? Have you ever spoken to these people? I have to question the agenda of NPR on this matter.

There are BIG consequences for selling firearms without background checks. The BATFE is actually pretty thorough when it comes to this. I have seen a shop get shut down within weeks of the owner trying to import or sell an illegal weapon or device.

SuperFrog

thisguyrighthere

SuperFrog

... when government is unable (thanks to huge dollar supply from NRA) to create laws that will prevent unregistered gun sales here in states.

So there is no law that makes selling a firearm to a felon or person otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm illegal?

That's news to me.

The Gun Control Act (GCA) makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms. 18 USC 922(g). Transfers of firearms to any such prohibited persons are also unlawful. 18 USC 922(d).

Guess you mean it should be made extra-illegal?

Nop, system is not working...

Read this: The gun that killed my sister

Not illegal - better controlled!

Please note...

Elvin Daniel, whose sister was killed in the October 2012 Brookfield, Wis., spa shooting, is a gun owner, NRA member, and gun violence-prevention advocate.

Elvin Daniel is an idiot. The murderer violated several felonies already on the books and the "internet transfer" as described in the article is already illegal. You honestly think that a prohibited person who intends to kill his wife is going to do a "background check" because it would be illegal to do otherwise? That's silly.

As for the "internet sales" nonsense. There are no "internet sales." All dealers who advertise on the internet have to follow the same laws as do their IRL stores do. It is a felony to mail a firearm unless it is to a FFL. It is illegal to sell handguns across state lines unless through an FFL.

What this guy did was take out a wanted add...something that people do in newspapers and did long before the internet. Even if there was a "background check" law on private sales, criminals would not obey this anyway so this debate is a rather silly one.

reply to post by SuperFrog


LOL. NPR is being stupid and deceitful again. Just how many guns get "pretend stolen" by a dealer before the BATF takes notice? One a week? One a day?

You have no idea how scrutinized a FFL is. BATF checks them in and out and checks their inventory and paperwork. What FFL wants to lose his license and livelihood and all of his property and go to jail "selling guns out the back door" when there are tons of people who want to buy his product legally coming in the front door?

As usual NPR is making # up.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Yep. Star for you. I can't tell you how many people I've come across saying the "oh yeah? what about internet sales?". To that I have to inform them how internet sales actually work. They then go "Oh... are you sure?". I reply, "yes, 100%, in fact I've been through the process more than a few times". They then reply, "But I read/heard on INSERT OP-ED PIECE HERE that you could bypass a lot of that with online sales". I say "no, you absolutely can't, and they were lying to you."

I have even taken a close friend of mine through the ordering process with Davidson's. They are now on our side.

Yep, you still have to go through an FFL, you still need the background check. You can't bypass anything by merely going online.

None sense....

All facts are pointing that all your talk does not have any background.

Labeling someone who lost sister as an idiot because he sees that guns should be better controlled does not talk about him, but about you.

Discussion end for me here, you can believe all you want, 251 mass shooting in 261 day tell otherwise.... go better clean your guns, paranoia has to be pretty high at the moment... zombies almost @ doors, as soon as rest of us get killed...

reply to post by SuperFrog


I love having my statements of fact ignored. I will repeat. It is estimated that 800,000 violent crimes a year are deterred and stopped by the display, not firing, display of a personal firearm. That's 1.5 a minute. That estimate is CONSERVATIVE because it only counts those that are reported. Could you imagine if those 800,000 crimes weren't stopped?

The US is one of the least homogenous countries on the planet. As a result, it has the potentiality to be one of the most violent. I wish it weren't the case, but the most homogenous societies are the safest, and the most diverse countries have the highest rates of crime. A good example would be to look at the UK and their demographics vs crime rate. Strong strong correlation over the last 15 years. South Africa is another good example. They've had a huge influx of sub-saharan Africans over the last 15 years, violent crime has almost crippled that country. Look at the crime rates of Japan and South Korea. EXTREMELY low. They are two of the most demographically homogenous societies on the planet. That being said, the US would have an insane number of murders, rapes, armed robberies, and assaults had they not been stopped with the mere display of a weapon.

Are you saying that we should ignore the rights and possibly lives of those 800,000 for the sake of the rights of the few? The few, who by and large perpetrate these shootings, are career criminals and gang affiliated?

Sadly reacquiring segment of show...

click here

reply to post by SuperFrog


He is not an idiot because he lost his sister, he is an idiot for not understanding gun laws.

reply to post by SuperFrog


Show me something that isn't "Journalism" but rather police data, FBI data, something that is actually a societal indicator rather than a piece of journalism that by its very nature tries to persuade rather than inform.

You have been so very well programmed.

reply to post by Galvatron


Read this article and follow links for details.

No, high gun ownership does not make country more safer, actually it is quite opposite.

30k deaths each year, 250 mass shootings so far this year, and no, you are not after statistics, you are just about closing your eyes to real problem - guns. They made it possible.

More guns meant more deaths, they found. "The gun ownership rate was a strong and independent predictor of firearm-related death," says Bangalore. "Private gun ownership was highest in the US. Japan, on the other end, had an extremely low gun ownership rate. Similarly, South Africa (9.4 per 100,000) and the US (10.2 per 100,000) had extremely high firearm-related deaths, whereas the United Kingdom (0.25 per 100,000) had an extremely low rate of firearm-related deaths.

reply to post by goou111


It's always gang related and it's always blacks and latinos go figure.

reply to post by SuperFrog


And yet, Mexico with some of the strictest gun control in the Americas has a murder rate multiple times that of the US and the Czech Republic with gun laws and ownership on par with the US (if not better...they actually are laxer with CCW permits and NFA items) has one of the lowest murder rate in Europe.

Cause and effect, how does it work?

reply to post by SuperFrog


One. Do you have a link to the original American Journal of Medicine article? Its not on that site. I'm not interested in the opinion of the Guardian.

From the article:

Although correlation is not the same as causation, it seems conceivable that abundant gun availability facilitates firearm-related deaths. Conversely, high crime rates may instigate widespread anxiety and fear, thereby motivating people to arm themselves and give rise to increased gun ownership, which, in turn, increases availability. The resulting vicious cycle could, bit by bit, lead to the polarized status that is now the case with the US," the doctors write. "Regardless of exact cause and effect, the current study debunks the widely quoted hypothesis that countries with higher gun ownership are safer than those with low gun ownership."

What? Lol. I never thought I'd see a doctor write a circular argument. "It seems conceivable"..."may instigate"... And this got published in the American Journal of Medicine? That's a heck of a lot of leaps of logic for a scientific peer reviewed piece.

30k where did you get that number from? Do you have the demographics of the 250+ mass shootings? How many are gang related or affiliated? Do you think that guns or gangs have more to do with it?

By the way, where is the 250 mass shootings data from? This is turning into bad comedy.

reply to post by NavyDoc


People have less reasons to kill anyone.

Look at unemployment figures and how many are in prison, thats why theres so much gun violence, they need money and are more desperate than anyone else to get it.

As for the nutter that are allowed to walk the street AND own guns, thats just plain bad security management and a failing health system.

A few years back when the Mexican Cartels were looking to expand their distribution; Chicago was the perfect place to start their Northern base of operations with it being a Gun free, (like Mexico mostly) easy to buy a government official, kinda place... There are many articles about how they have moved in. Many of the shootings we see coming out of the murder capital of these united states are a direct result of the turf wars and revenge killings you are seeing.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In an open letter to the public in late July, several retired Border Patrol agents wrote on behalf of the National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers to warn that Mexican drug cartels are actively operating inside the United States spending millions every year to try to build their networks here. They argued that American politicians are protecting their activities as well.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.borderlandbeat.com...
Caught with less than 150 pounds; Police here say federal authorities generally won't prosecute traffickers moving less than 150 pounds of marijuana with a street value of $120,000.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Chicago Crime Commission, a non-government agency that tracks crime trends in the region, said it considers Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman even more menacing than Capone because Guzman leads the deadly Sinaloa cartel, which supplies most of the narcotics sold in Chicago and in many cities across the U.S.

But let us not focus on the cause and the real problems at our southern border but push a political agenda that will do nothing but place the entire population of the U.S. at the mercy of the well financed and ARMED drug cartels. Talk about a misdirection away from an underlying cause...IMO

reply to post by Biigs


Which goes to show that there are a lot more factors that cause violent crime than simple gun ownership. As suggested above, the more homogeneous a society, the less violence. Drug wars, gang wars, poverty, broken homes, lack of education, and a large welfare state all add to violence.

We have regions with very little gun control, awash in guns, with murder rates on par or even better than the rates in the best parts of the UK. We also have regions with strict gun control and almost no legal gun ownership that almost entirely give us all of our murder numbers.

Cut out the big cities in the US, and you have a very low per capita murder rate.

Legal gun ownership and carrying guns is very common in rural America but those regions have a very low murder rate.

That gun ownership causes crime is a logical fallacy.

reply to post by Galvatron


Article will be in October issue of AJM. Here you can see it: Guns do not make a nation safer say doctors in new study

Enjoy...

Follow read the study at the bottom of the page for article itself (in PDF).