Pope Francis: Church's 'obsession' with gays, abortion and contraception means it could 'fall li

Deetermined
reply to post by BayesLike

 

Well, it is not my bible per se. But I have read it many times. And I'm still waiting for the quotes to support your claim that the bible denies a Pope.

For starters, Jesus told the disciples (as ministers of God) not to take on the titles of Rabbi, Father or Master. They should be referred to as brothers.

Matthew 23:8-10

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

And yet, the tent maker Paul said just the opposite. I wonder who really called Paul into "service":

In the New Jerusalem Catholic Bible Paul says, "1 Co 4:15 for even though you might have ten thousand slaves to look after you in Christ, you still have no more than one father, and it was I who fathered you in Christ Jesus, by the gospel.

The Catholics say that Mat 23:9 is about earthly fathers, and what Paul is talking about is spiritual father. The Jesuits are great lawyers. This is what I call a word game for them. It all depends on what the definition of "is" is.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


" Just how do you take a non-Catholic to your elders? Just how do you even have elders? "
well if u want too build precept upon, precept,
It started, God
then Judges
then Kings
then America,,
as far as "Star Chambers" that went out with the Barons/Earls/Dukes, and was replaced with a Jury of Ones Peers.
too where, we are today. courts.

Deetermined
reply to post by adjensen

 

Given that Paul and John both referred to themselves as "Father" and/or to their followers as their "children", that's obviously not what Christ meant in saying "call no one Father" -- he wasn't banning the use of the word.

They may have referred to themselves as being like a father, but they never asked anyone to call them that and no one ever did.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that's true, and no one said that they were "like a father":

I am writing this not to shame you but to warn you as my dear children. Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. (1 Corinthians 4:14-15 NIV)

I'm not even going to bother responding to your comment on pedophilia.

Haters gotta hate, we get it.

reply to post by adjensen


So, you don't think the church has dropped the ball on the perverted priests and nuns? I am not saying all priests or nuns are perverts, but let's be honest here, there is more than enough evidence that the church has played the CYA game in this matter. It is the leaderships job to discipline their priests and nuns and it does not appear to have happened. I do believe this is hypocrisy. Judgment starts with the house of God and we will see just what God feels about these hirelings.

reply to post by adjensen

You have absolutely no way of knowing that's true, and no one said that they were "like a father":

Show me one verse in the Bible where anyone referred to Paul or John as "father Paul" or "father John". There aren't any. So, I can safely assume that they never asked anyone to call them by that name or title.

What he,, the Pope was trying too say was "HEY TIME TOO WAKE THE # UP" sorry your Pope-ness (3 Our fathers)

UnifiedSerenity
reply to post by adjensen

 

So, you don't think the church has dropped the ball on the perverted priests and nuns? I am not saying all priests or nuns are perverts, but let's be honest here, there is more than enough evidence that the church has played the CYA game in this matter. It is the leaderships job to discipline their priests and nuns and it does not appear to have happened. I do believe this is hypocrisy. Judgment starts with the house of God and we will see just what God feels about these hirelings.

People like that like to claim only a few priests molested a few kids. They have a great time ignoring all the other members of the church that covered for them, moved them around, shielded them from the law, and kept them "supplied" with new prey. If any other organisation on the planet had as many molesters and protectors of said molesters, the Catholic Church would be one of the loudest voices crying for it to be shut down. I hear it all the time "It was just a few priests."
What about all the other members of the church that knew and did nothing or even helped it continue?
"They made it right with the families without involving the law, no sin there."
Cool, tell your raped child, no harm, no foul. He is raping kids somewhere else now and we know about it but we are not bad because you know, we came and told you to not tell the cops and you didnt.

Deetermined
reply to post by adjensen

 

You have absolutely no way of knowing that's true, and no one said that they were "like a father":

Show me one verse in the Bible where anyone referred to Paul or John as "father Paul" or "father John". There aren't any. So, I can safely assume that they never asked anyone to call them by that name or title.

Wow, the bible includes every second of their lives and every single thing they did or said? I need to read it again because I think you just made that up.

I had a nickname as a kid. It is not in any books. Does that mean I never had it?

reply to post by adjensen

Haters gotta hate, we get it.

I don't hate the Catholic church any more than I hate the fallen Jimmy Swaggarts and Jim Bakers of the world. I just hate SOME of the things they do, say, or try to cover up. No one church denomination is innocent. The only reason it's easier to pick on Catholics is because they all tie themselves to the Pope.

reply to post by Deetermined


Show me one letter from a "parishioner" in the bible. Stop the games. This is a straw man argument. I really expected it from you all who don't see an issue with this. It's the same in every debate on here that when one side proves a point, the other side moves the goal post, doesn't admit you have a point. It was asked, "Show me 1 verse were it says that the bible says not to have a Pope, and I gave it. Then you all play games of "we need a mediator between men!

But, that is not what the church says the Pope is. The RCC says the Pope is Jesus / Yeshua's representative on earth to speak for God! I have news for you, we who believe in Yeshua are ALL God's representatives here on earth. We are his body. The Pope is no more special than the whore who just converted or the rapist who has turned his life over to Christ, and until you all get that then you are putting one man above the rest of you, and that my friends is how the church fell into disrepute, sold forgiveness of sins as indulgences.

Look, I actually like this guy Francis, but I don't trust him. I see a lot of parallels to the false Messiah in men such as him. I am watching him closely. The AC comes in peacefully and prosperously bringing the world together under a huge umbrella of ecumenicism. We are to be the salt of the earth, and salt can sting. It has character and you know it when you taste it.

I was raised in the RCC. I believed in Jesus all my life. When Baptists and JW's would knock on my door and ask me if I was saved, I would say with a true heart, "Yes, I'm Roman Catholic" and inwardly pray for them to come to the truth of God's one church and become a Catholic! How stupid I was. If you knock on my door and ask me if I believe in Abraham Lincoln, I will say, "Yes, I know he lived" but that is not knowing him. I learned the difference in 1987. I learned there is a huge difference in head knowledge and heart knowledge and I got saved all by myself by the workings of the Holy Spirit using people who do love Yeshua in my life. I said my salvation prayer alone, I got immersed alone, and I went through a Holy Spirit 12 step program alone to clean up my mind and heart.

Catholics are not encouraged to read their bibles. We were given homilies and the Priest read from the Gospel and a lecture would read from the other writings, and then we would do our rituals, have communion, sing songs and go home, and do good works. I went to Catholic school! We never opened our bibles or were instructed to read Genesis for ourselves, or any other book. We might be told to learn Psalm 23 or the order of the books in the bible, but we sure as heck never had in depth readings. It was a short passage. The church wants to read it for you and interpret it for you, and keep you under their control. Why does the Catholic church have a telescope named L.U.C.I.F.E.R?

Talk about a hypocritical bunch of hogwash! They named their friggin light observer (stars) after the enemy of God! Do you need someone to read the writing on the wall as happened for King Belshazzar? Oh, by the way that is in Daniel 5.

Why does the RCC remove the second commandment in the Catechism?

It is clear they dropped the 2nd in the teaching to become a card carrying Catholic (Catechism) by splitting the coveting commandment. The church changed the Sabbath day, and use clever scripture twisting to say Christ is our Sabbath, and therefore we don't need to keep it. They hate the Feasts of the Lord so much that even when Easter (Eshtar worship and sunrise services which even Protestants do) lands on Passover or Saturday, they change it despite it falling when they traditionally would keep it as RCC! I give you Walter Veith who shows the true history, what happened.


The AC will change times of worship, and the RCC loves to do this though they are not alone in Christendom.

The Roman Catholic Church Says its is above God - Vatican Changes Ten Commandments - 3

UnifiedSerenity
reply to post by adjensen

 

So, you don't think the church has dropped the ball on the perverted priests and nuns?

I have written extensively on this in other threads, and I believe that, yes, the church was complacent in many instances, but having studied the documents in one diocese (Los Angeles,) I believe that it was more a matter of not knowing what to do than it was some sort of organized evil that many people put it out to be. And the fact of the matter remains that the church took corrective measures, put official policy in place as to how sexual abuse by the clergy should be handled and the number of cases has dropped off to almost none.

This is a chart of reports of abuse from the 1930s until the 2000s, and as you can see, there is a real bell curve that indicates laxity in the 1960s and 1970s, with the drop off coming with the institution of direct policy in the 1980s. Could the church have acted more swiftly? Of course, and that's where I see their complacency.


I would encourage you to read the Clergy Files of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, the source of that graph. It contains all the sordid details, as well as conversations between reporting priests and the archdiocese as to how to deal with the pedophiles, which gives real insight into what was happening.

I realize that the videos I put up come in half way. I am reticent to post long videos because it has been my experience that few, especially those in opposition to a point being made, want to watch them. They throw out the typical, "get off youtube" stuff as if listening to a person presenting information backed up by many documents and facts is to be ignored. For those wanting to hear the first half, I will post these two videos. I do not post it to upset anyone, but to share information and let you decide the facts for yourself. We have all at one time thought one thing, then later based on new information changed our minds about something. We usually resist it at first due to our pride, ego, and fear. Change scares most people, but truth seekers should not shrink from new information. If it is truth then we embrace it and continue to seek more truth. "Ask seek, and knock and the door shall be opened". I post this for those who are asking for information, seeking truth, and want it no matter how uncomfortable it may make us:

1104light
If the pope says something, every Catholic I know swallows it whole.

So that's why less than 10% of Catholics in the USA use natural family planning,
but instead use contraception like the non-catholics? Sure ...

1104light
Infallibility is pretty easy to look up. Catholics believe the pope is incapable of failing.

Wrong. It means that when the pope speaks on matters of doctrine EX CATHEDRA, then
they believe that doctrine can't have error. It only has to do with ex cathedra doctrinal
matters.

1104light
My bible is pretty explicit about not giving any man the power Catholics give the pope. You might want to read it.

Wrong again. Matthew 16:18 - JESUS said - "you are Peter, the Rock, and upon you I shall build My church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'



So if the trolls are done .... how about people address the subject of the thread ....
Pope Francis telling the Catholic church not to focus so much on homosexuals,
contraception and abortion.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I took his comments to mean first bring them back into the fold, then work on their sins.

stormdancer777
I took his comments to mean first bring them back into the fold, then work on their sins.

You mean Pope Francis? Sure. That's what all the priests are supposed to be doing.

But really, you don't hear about homosexuals or contraception from the Catholics around here.
They aren't running around laughing maniacally rubbing their hands together while dis'n gay
people and/or screaming about how evil contraception is. If anything, it's just the opposite.
I know more Catholics who are in favor of marriage equality (gay marriage) than not.

This whole discussion I am having about the Pope trying to put himself in the position as God on earth and mediator between God and man while extending that authority to his priests is to show the biblical error in such a teaching. How can a priest forgive your sins? Only God can forgive them us, and Yeshua is our mediator alone. No man can forgive your sins, but the man Messiah Yeshua who is God made flesh and called "the word".

Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Luk 5:22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
Luk 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
Luk 5:25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.


The Pharisees understood that no man can forgive sins, but Yeshua was not just any man. He demonstrated his authority, he paid the price, and he rose again and will come again to judge us. For those who are not believers, I understand how crazy this all sounds to you. However, for those claiming to follow Messiah Yeshua, these words should strike a chord within you. Do you trust a priest / Pope or do you trust Messiah and the word?

What is Blasphemy? It is man making himself to be God and saying he can forgive sins.

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Yeshua told us to do as the Pharisees say, but not do the things they do. They were right that it was and is blasphemy for anyone to claim to be God or to lift up another that is not as God.

Of course, as believers, Yeshua is God made flesh. Thus, it is not Blasphemy, but what does the church say about the Pope being God?

In the last days, after Israel returns to their land, a man will rise. He has been styled “Lord God the Pope,” and was declared infallible. He demands the homage of all men “We hold upon this earth the place of Almighty God.” [The Great ENCYCLICAL Letter of Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894].

“God Himself is obliged to abide by judgment of His priests, and either to pardon and not to pardon, according as they refuse or give absolution…. The sentence of the priest proceeds, and God subscribes to it.” [Dignities and Duties of the priest, v.12 pp.27] “The pope can modify Divine Law.” [Pompta Bibliotheca,” “Papa.”art.2]. “This judicial authority will even include the power to pardon sin” [Catholic Encyclopedia v.12, art “Pope,” pp. 265]

"Of priest we see, "Thou are a priest forever: says the ordaining bishop.... He is no longer a man, a sinful child of Adam, but an 'Alter Christus', another Christ... Ferever a priest of the Most High, with power over the Almighty.

The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." The Catholic National, July 1895

Alter Christ? Another Christ? I do believe that is the very definition of anti-Christ or the "instead of Christ"

"Seek where you will, through heaven and earth, and you will find one created being who can forgive the sinner, who can free him from the chains of hell. That extraordinary being is the priest, the Roman Catholic priest." The Catholic Priest p. 78

These are the RCC own words and beliefs as compared to the bible. I truly know how hard it is to come to truth, and as a former Roman Catholic it was a crisis of faith moment when I embraced Yeshua and him alone, and stopped following RCC doctrine. For me it was as if I was dying, and I am understanding how hard this is. It's the same as when Jew embraces Messiah Yeshua. They go through the same pain, and many are rejected by family and friends for it. Some families sit shiva for a Jew who becomes a believer. It is a most difficult accepting of truth, but it is my prayer that you will see their very words, and deeds, and read your bible to discover the truth for yourself as you ask God through Messiah Yeshua, Christ Jesus for wisdom and truth.

reply to post by FlyersFan


It is not trolling to point out that the Pope is no special man. That he sits in error of the word. He is using a very nice ploy of truth to treat all with respect and dignity and to let God judge, but he is hoping to widen the tents and to bring all under his authority. The church has been at this a very long time, and when the Messiah returns many will be as the 5 foolish virgins who did not obtain oil (truth) in time and as the brige groom approached had to go to those who sell oil to make it through the dark night. Messiah comes, they are not ready, and the five wise virgins who were prepared with truth go with him, and he locks the doors and no matter how much the five foolish love him, he says, "I know you not".

Sorry you see my words as trolling, but I am answering to points made by others. The Pope is NOT God's authority on earth.

UnifiedSerenity
Sorry you see my words as trolling, but I am answering to points made by others.

That wasn't directed at you.
There is a new person on ATS who has been trolling around the boards.
And that persons post in this thread was indeed trolling. But it wasn't you.

The Pope is NOT God's authority on earth.

You are welcome to believe he's not.
However, 1 billion Catholics DO interpret scripture to say that he stands in Peters shoes.
They are welcome to that interpretation.
They may be right. Or you may be right. Or neither of you may be right.
Time will tell.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Thanks for spelling out what you meant. I am reticent though to call those disagreeing with me trolls unless the simply throw out zingers and don't enter into honest discussion which can happen often.

Yes, that is very true, and I would never tell someone what to believe. I happen to have many friends at different times in my life from every faith imaginable.. well I've known Satanists, but we weren't really friends. My arguments (not meaning anger, but points of difference) is when some try to say the bible says one thing and it does not. I just read a most amazing book on Scribd, that points out some things I did not know specifically, and since I can't just quote it, I will say, go here... read pages 112 - 135 for a pretty good history of how the paganism was brought in. I highly recommend reading the entire book which took me a little over an hour.


RCC has it's roots in Mithra Sun god worship and uses the veneer of Christianity to hide the real source of their worship. I am not saying sincere Catholics are worshiping Mithra, but the church certainly is mimicking Mithra worship from its rituals, is Sunday worship, it's lifting the host (eating the body), to its vestments and even the use of the word Pontiff:

Flavius Vopiscus, wrote that the priests of the Temple of the Sun at Rome were called “pontiffs.” They were priests of their dying-ris-ing saviour god, Mithra , and “vicegerants” (sec-ond in command to their god, Mithra ).

It is an interesting fact that it was the Mithrites,not the Christians, who first called their Sun day “the Lord’s day.”

Mithra was their Lord and they wanted to honor his holy day.
“The first day of each week, Sunday, was con-secrated to Mithra since times remote, as sev-eral authors affirm. Because the Sun was god,the Lord
par excellence,

Sunday came to becalled the ‘Lord’s day,’ as later was done by Christianity.
”—
Agostinho de Almeida Paiva, O Mitraiomo, p. 3.


The Christian churches at Alexandria, Egypt (which had a worldly Christian seminary), and at Rome were the most paganizing in the Empire and the first to adopt Sunday as the sacred day of Christians.
page 115-116 of referenced book.