Could Ancient Peruvians Soften Stone? A few worthy questions ! Still a mystery in many ways

reply to post by Harte

However, such a thing could have been used to ease the work required in facing stones and shaping the edges to fit.

That is, this can be done by hand without any "softening" (which could only affect the the surface layer of a stone in the first place.) But such a technique would certainly make it easier to shape the stones edges by bashing or rubbing softened stone.

Surface treatment of stone can explain some things in Egypt as well. The extremely regular and finely carved glyphs on granite obelisks, namely. If you build a fire on the cut granite, the temperature differential will cause the crystals to crack and loosen on the surface layer, making it far easier to carve with precision.

Much like in todays tech where you use oil to help drill into metal and so forth.

I see your point,Harte.

I laugh at the guy on AA who is a stone mason and carver when he talks about it is impossible to replicate so of these items.
Through my trade,I have learned to work smarter ,not harder.
Heating and/or applying herbal or chemicals would make it much easier to work with.

Just my opinion,nothing more.

Peace,
K

Interesting thread

Have no evidence at all but thus has got me thinking the may have soaked stones from acids made from local plants or similar source. In tricate carvings could have been painted this way.

As I say, there's no evidence so it's probably nonsense but it seems possible to me. Any thoughts?

reply to post by bastion


There are many possibilities.

Softening of the stone to make it easier to work with,IMHO,is plausible.

I would think the easiest organic acid to use and the easiest to obtain would be human urine. If something was added to it it may have been a viable stone softener. Whatever was added would have to be available in large amounts also.

PhoenixOD
It always amazes me that people these days think the only way to make anything is quickly. So when they look at something ancient that's super complex or difficult to achieve their minds instantly jump to amazing unknown technologies to get it done rather than the more obvious explanation which is skill + hard work + lots and lots of time.

I'm with you. Lots and lots of time. They have found the stone tools they used...

site01789.customer.hagenhosting.com...

reply to post by will2learn

I mean how on earth does one collect a few gallons of bird spit?

Like this:


Yummy stuff, or so I'm told.

Hanslune
reply to post by will2learn

 

That doesn't mesh with the observed effect of bashing and sanding to the stones, also it doesn't make sense to make hundreds and thousands of different sized and shape molds for the 'concrete' rocks. Look at any Incan or pre-Incan wall, they are made with erratics, not similar shaped stones.

Concrete is a great idea IF you have a way to break up the rock you need to make the concrete, ie lots of labour or machinery to reduce it fine enought to make something that looks like rock, using stones or gravel makes something easy to tell isn't rock.

It would be easier to just shape the rock.

Hans

you have hit the nail on the head as usual. I was of exactly the same opinion. I used to completely trash Davidovitz because of the need to pound up stone and then reconstitute it. It does not make any sense at all, its easier to carry the stones to the site of course. Then a friend showed me how they not only had tons of crushed up stone but stone in a form that was easily reconstituted. It is buried in Davidovitz' work, but he does not emphasize the source of the stone. He mentions Portland cement, a very old and strong cement mix. He assumes we all know where it comes from and why. Once we realize that the source of this is the slurry from the mining process, the whole lot falls into place.

As soon as the ancients get into mining and refining, there was literally hundreds of tons of waste slurry or even molten rock in some processes to be used in the building process. Today, we see millions of tons of slag that ends up in pebble sized chunks for use in gardens and hardcore. The process of making rocks was used by the Victorians there are slag bricks and my favorite the wall caps. I always assume if the Victorians could do it then the ancients could as well (barring a few electrical and other processes). The technique fell from favor because the modern miners refine a lot more materials from the stone. In the end they rapidly cool the waste and it fractures into tiny little pebble sized stones.

For every ton of gold there are 1000s of tons of slurry, unless one believes that the ancients collected tons of gold thru the quaint panning process only.

If the slag is left to cool and dry it can form mountains or giant stones in the case of the ancients. We see slag piles all over the refining world. They desperately try to find a use for it but invariably just leave tons of it next to the site of extraction. The paper I mentioned above with the analysis describes the analytical differences every one of them is a result of heat and is common to the refining procedures. The author describes the slag differences without even connecting to the refining process.

A quick review of ancient slag stones will show the variety and uses of slag. The ancients did not like to waste as we do. The stones are lighter, often have bubbles or that concrete/geopolymer texture. They come in a variety of colors based on the source of the mineral and so on. I will post the countless ancient examples if needed. I think they explain dozens of those dumb ooparts stuck in stone, down some mine where the refiners dumped their waste. They just lost a hammer, bell or sparkplug down there too.

Slag stones have a striking resemblance to the Cuzco walls or the Puma Punku bricks and many more ancient sites. Each region will form its own type of stone closely related to the local source stone. The evidence comes in the forms, density, air bubbles, absence of fossils (calcination?), and the reduction in the amount of the mineral they were looking for.

Once slag stones are made, it does not preclude the percussive methods such as chisel or hammer stones being used. They can be finished with a chisel, mortared. hammer stone or just in their dried state. Nor does the use of slag preclude the use of more mundane methods. I think there are many techniques on display, just because we can use plaster today it does not preclude the use of natural or carved stone why would it? Its exactly the same in the past.

There are many other types of stone on display such as high temp vitrified stone and ceramic glazes,I have sources for them too. However the slag approach deals with the mass volume by virtue of the fact it is simply great to use this byproduct in the construction process.

Will

punkinworks10
reply to post by Hanslune

 

Hey Hans,
I always find it humorous when someone suggests it's easier grind up several tons of rock, into rock flour, then mix it with several tons of water and pour it before it sets up, rather than just shape the rock with hammerstones.

Yes that final basal fluting was the death to many erstwhile fluted points. Just read a paper on Clovis tool assemblages and something like 60-70 % of points fractured during initial mfg.

Punkin

I could not agree more, I hope the post above answers this question at the heart of the soft stone theories. Crushing up tons of stone was not done to make soft stone, it was a byproduct of the refining of metals. Its the modern specialization that makes these answers so difficult to come by.

Will

However, such a thing could have been used to ease the work required in facing stones and shaping the edges to fit. That is, this can be done by hand without any "softening" (which could only affect the the surface layer of a stone in the first place.) But such a technique would certainly make it easier to shape the stones edges by bashing or rubbing softened stone. Surface treatment of stone can explain some things in Egypt as well. The extremely regular and finely carved glyphs on granite obelisks, namely. If you build a fire on the cut granite, the temperature differential will cause the crystals to crack and loosen on the surface layer, making it far easier to carve with precision.

reply to post by punkinworks10


Harte

On studying the stones of the ancient world, it is clear there are a whole host of techniques being used. In some cases liquids (plants or spitting birds ) might have been used. These can only ever deal with small volumes as u suggest surface layers. The slag stones of course can deal with the massive volumes. Again slag allows surface layers to be added and worked whilst wet, just as a plasterer today will work the final layer of a wall into a perfectly smooth finish.

There are of course more basic stone banging methods on display as well. There are much more interesting methods there as well. These involve the use of heat directly on to stone or onto ceramic pastes painted on to stone. There are several ways to add the heat whether via kiln methods or with other more intriguing ancient methods. I am not aware of any method ancient or modern that allows a 2-3mm thick layer of ceramic using chemicals, tho I am open to it. The energy of the reaction would need to be huge. Currently industrial chemicals can put a fine layer of glaze on granite, but it is no thicker than a polished layer.

This paper summary confirms that the ancients not only finished stones with vitrification, they put ceramic layers onto the limestone walls and surfaces of caves.

(if this link works I will put some slag papers and examples of ancient stones up)

Vitrified Stone Finishes

It is a matter of reducing the finishes to a sensible list, distinguishing formed from natural stones and intermediary techniques to work out ALL of the ancient methods. It is quite a matrix of possible combinations. Hopefully between the slags and vitrified stones there is much less mystery. There will also be much less scope for the con men who use such mystery to sell advanced, super ancient or alien technologies to a willing public.

Will

I thought limestone might have been used in the pyramids as well

reply to post by babalon1971


The Gizah pyramids are primarily limestone wih internal uses of granite with some of the smaller AE pyramds having partial outer claddings of granite. Most pyramids were built with mud brick and rubble cores. A later 'imitiation' pyramid was built of cement.

Outside of Egypt pyramids/ziggurats./raised platforms were built of stone rubble, limestone, earth and mud brick

reply to post by will2learn


Yep there were multiple techniques used to get to the same point, shaping the stones.

Hopefully somewhere between the 'knot of the fan' and Aswan exists a middle-class tomb where a supervisor of quarries or stone workers was buried AND he took the unusual step to document what they did on the walls of his burial chamber. We have some examples of such but a more detailed look would be helpful. In SA & CA we probably won't find such a thing.

reply to post by Hanslune


Here are some examples of modern slag stones, by modern I mean victorian. Nicely shaped bricks with lovely vitrified look to them.

Kelston Park

Another variety used as coping stones, a very popular use of the waste from refining at one time

Blag Slag Coping Stones

I have plenty of ancient examples too if anyone is interested. Some the size of a phone box or bigger. Here is an ancient slag stone landscape, with a fort plonked on top. One would think they would have found a better use for all that slag that ultimately turns to stone.

A Slag Landscape


Its not so much a lost technique, more of something that is not fashionable, tho in some fields soft stone is chic. Now which of these alternative researchers are saying we can't make stones like that today?

Will

reply to post by will2learn


PAPER CONFIRMING THE USE OF HEAT IN FORMING THE GREAT BLOCKS AT SACSAYHUAMAN

The following paper does a detailed analysis of quarry and wall stones at Sacsayhuamn. It confirms the absence of organic inclusions in the wall compared to the quarries. There are also higher levels of oxides in the wall stone. The authors attribute these to the use of extreme heat and look to lava flows. This is also perfectly consistent with the refining process and in the absence of a volcano in the immediate vicinity would make it much more likely.

Sacsayhuaman Stone Analysis Paper

The inconsistency between the quarry stone and the formed stones would suggest that a lava source was very selective in its output. This is highly unlikely. The whole landscape points toward limestone being quarried for some mineral.

Will

good thread bumping for later

geobro
good thread bumping for later

Geobro

I think this thread deserves a good bump or two. The soft stone theory has been kicking around for years. The critics in here have had it raising its ugly head every 3 months or so. The main problem with the soft stone idea (one I focused on too) is the ridiculous effort required to pound and then reform the stones. Most dismissed the idea of cements or geopolymers as a result.

With the focus on using the slag stone or slurry byproducts from the refining process. Gold in particular, along with copper and other metals, is well evidenced in Peru and other places with these odd droopy looking stones. The mainstream even recognizes the production of slag in construction projects throughout history. The analytical paper above now provides pretty compelling proof that the Peruvians at least did heat great stones, destroying the minute fossils found in the natural stone.

Now some alt researchers might argue for some lost or advanced tech, but the refining process is a much more elegant answer. It requires neither the aliens, advanced tech or even lost tech. If anyone cares to flick through a few examples of slag stone they will find not only plenty of ancient examples, but plenty of modern ones that map rather neatly on to the ancient sites. The slurries and molten slag were produced by the ton in the ancient industrial complexes.

There was no need to waste energy heating stone to make soft stone (apart from the vitrified glazes), it was already in a molten or liquid form after the refining process, Stones could be built up layer by layer as in the Giza blocks (something I had previously thought natural) or in great masses akin to concrete today.

Next time the soft stone premise raises its head, hopefully researchers won't be looking for red headed birds with noxious spit or plants that could burn a hole through a steel plate, but just say hey its a better use than a slag heap

Will

abeverage
Ancient Architecture has always fascinated me almost as much as the mythology and cultures of the past. I have not yet reconciled the monolithic structures but a form of cement makes more sense than ALIENS or even the standard model...

Yea, such a fascinating subject. Not sure I buy liquid rocks, the shear size and weight of some of these stones is amazing. There are so many fables like merlin using a staff to move stones many believe using sonics.

There is a unique place somewhere in Florida where the guy used a mysterious device in a small black box to move and place large stones. He said he discovered how the ancients did it. Mysterious story, Google it.

Not sure I buy aliens but to seriously look at the structures built all over the world and it is difficult to believe they built these incredible structures, some with no metal tools at all, without some help.

The place where it looks like it was hit with some great force, where the stones interlock like Legos. Modern stone masons can't make these cuts, they tried, this to me is extremely puzzling and can only mean they had some sort of technology.

I hope someday we have the answers.

The Bot

dlbott

abeverage
Ancient Architecture has always fascinated me almost as much as the mythology and cultures of the past. I have not yet reconciled the monolithic structures but a form of cement makes more sense than ALIENS or even the standard model...

Yea, such a fascinating subject. Not sure I buy liquid rocks, the shear size and weight of some of these stones is amazing. There are so many fables like merlin using a staff to move stones many believe using sonics.

There is a unique place somewhere in Florida where the guy used a mysterious device in a small black box to move and place large stones. He said he discovered how the ancients did it. Mysterious story, Google it.

Not sure I buy aliens but to seriously look at the structures built all over the world and it is difficult to believe they built these incredible structures, some with no metal tools at all, without some help.

The place where it looks like it was hit with some great force, where the stones interlock like Legos. Modern stone masons can't make these cuts, they tried, this to me is extremely puzzling and can only mean they had some sort of technology.

I hope someday we have the answers.

The Bot

Ed Leedskalnin I know his story well. The coral castle built for unrequited love. He not only built a monument, that men with machines would have trouble doing today!

He also tried to instruct in building a personal monument within others through his writing...

abeverage

dlbott

abeverage
Ancient Architecture has always fascinated me almost as much as the mythology and cultures of the past. I have not yet reconciled the monolithic structures but a form of cement makes more sense than ALIENS or even the standard model...

Yea, such a fascinating subject. Not sure I buy liquid rocks, the shear size and weight of some of these stones is amazing. There are so many fables like merlin using a staff to move stones many believe using sonics.

There is a unique place somewhere in Florida where the guy used a mysterious device in a small black box to move and place large stones. He said he discovered how the ancients did it. Mysterious story, Google it.

Not sure I buy aliens but to seriously look at the structures built all over the world and it is difficult to believe they built these incredible structures, some with no metal tools at all, without some help.

The place where it looks like it was hit with some great force, where the stones interlock like Legos. Modern stone masons can't make these cuts, they tried, this to me is extremely puzzling and can only mean they had some sort of technology.

I hope someday we have the answers.

The Bot

Ed Leedskalnin I know his story well. The coral castle built for unrequited love. He not only built a monument, that men with machines would have trouble doing today!

He also tried to instruct in building a personal monument within others through his writing...

edit on 24-9-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)

Thanks for link will revisit later, am I right he never disclosed what his device was or it was taken after his death i am sorry my memory is fragmenting lol.

Thanks again for link.

The Bot

dlbott

abeverage

dlbott

abeverage
Ancient Architecture has always fascinated me almost as much as the mythology and cultures of the past. I have not yet reconciled the monolithic structures but a form of cement makes more sense than ALIENS or even the standard model...

Yea, such a fascinating subject. Not sure I buy liquid rocks, the shear size and weight of some of these stones is amazing. There are so many fables like merlin using a staff to move stones many believe using sonics.

There is a unique place somewhere in Florida where the guy used a mysterious device in a small black box to move and place large stones. He said he discovered how the ancients did it. Mysterious story, Google it.

Not sure I buy aliens but to seriously look at the structures built all over the world and it is difficult to believe they built these incredible structures, some with no metal tools at all, without some help.

The place where it looks like it was hit with some great force, where the stones interlock like Legos. Modern stone masons can't make these cuts, they tried, this to me is extremely puzzling and can only mean they had some sort of technology.

I hope someday we have the answers.

The Bot

Ed Leedskalnin I know his story well. The coral castle built for unrequited love. He not only built a monument, that men with machines would have trouble doing today!

He also tried to instruct in building a personal monument within others through his writing...

edit on 24-9-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)

Thanks for link will revisit later, am I right he never disclosed what his device was or it was taken after his death i am sorry my memory is fragmenting lol.

Thanks again for link.

The Bot

I forget many import things but I am full of completely usless information like that. Yes he took the secrets to his grave. Some say his writing holds the key.