Obama says: "Raising the Debt Ceiling...Does Not Increase Our Debt"

reply to post by crazyewok


Bush is gone. The Tyrant 0bama is in charge.

The horse.............................................it's dead.

reply to post by Indigo5

Your blind [snip] allegiance to Big Govt and Govt spending really is sad.

When you are willing to see exactly what is going on, maybe come back and try again.

macman
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Bush is gone. The Tyrant 0bama is in charge.

The horse.............................................it's dead.

My point is just rember who started it all when the next elections roll round.

Republican or Democrat makes no diffrence both want to screw you over!

Stop haveing such short memories

Rember insaity is doing the same thing over again and expecting diffrent results.

reply to post by macman


Right, it isn't rocket science. When you look at total government spending as percentage of GDP you should be able to see that currently in order to sustain the level of spending now, without deficit spending, and to pay down the debt they need to find ways to rake in nearly HALF of every dollar out there. And there are spending increases coming between now and 2015...

This is why I made that prediction on the previous page...

It all collapses at that level. Especially when you factor in higher tax burdens on the private sector, growing dependence on government from high real unemployment numbers, businesses and manufacturers leaving the country, or cutting back because of increased burdens, restrictions, regulations and obamacare etc.

Unless they see this coming and can find some miraculous way to prevent it, my prediction stands.

macman
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Bush is gone. The Tyrant 0bama is in charge.

The horse.............................................it's dead.

Oh, everything Bush did is no longer?
The two wars he started both ended in 2008 and all the dead soldiers came back to life, all the debt he put us in went away? All the bills he left for Obama to pay for were wiped out? All the policies he put in place are gone? Really?

macman
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Your blind ignorant allegiance to Big Govt and Govt spending really is sad.

When you are willing to see exactly what is going on, maybe come back and try again.

Amazing how your posts consistently lack all substance, facts or effort beyond insults.

IMO your rhetoric is what is hurting this country.

xuenchen
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Federal revenues have steadily increased each year since 2009.

Federal spending has been slightly down, up and down since 2009, but tight and steady.

Your graph is showing what ?
Is it just 'budgeted' spending or total spending.

Confusing. This shows total spending and total spending deficits - %GDP;

edit on Sep-19-2013 by xuenchen because:

Wow...I have never seen someone's ideology create literal optical illusions!

Your graph...while being stretched historically to minimize the appearance of year over year changes...STILL shows falling deficits and spending?

Are you unable to see that?

The treasury cannot spend anything without Congressional authorisation. In addition, the treasury cannot hold back on payments authorised by Congress. If the revenues accrued from authorised avenues fall short of the authorised spending, the treasury has no choice, but to borrow. The debt ceiling simply makes for a combination of inconsistent laws all which, under certain circumstances, are impossible to satisfy. So if the debt ceiling is not raised, the government has to Congressional mandate at least in one case revenues, spending or debt ceiling. Obama is threatening with a default if the debt ceiling is not raised.

However, the treasury has another, hitherto unused, solution, the platinum coin route. The treasury can make a platinum coin of an arbitrarily large (say US$ 1 trillion) face value, deposit it with the Fed and have the Fed credit the amount equal to the face value to the treasury account. Then they can continue to make Congressionally approved payments without making new debt. The only unknown here is whether the Fed will agree to place this platinum coin on its assets side in the balance sheet. Bernanke may oblige as long as the face value is just enough to cover the shortfall until his replacement is in place and let his successor decide if it should become a long term policy. If Bernanke or his successor (most likely Janet Yellen) doesn't mind accepting coins of any face value as long as the treasury is willing to mint them, US can retire all its debt as it matures and never have to borrow a single dollar ever again, no matter what the revenues and what the expenditures are

reply to post by Indigo5

Wow...I have never seen someone's ideology create literal optical illusions!

Your graph...while being stretched historically to minimize the appearance of year over year changes...STILL shows falling deficits and spending?

Are you unable to see that?

Just was wondering why the 'percentage' side of the graph is different.

Different comparisons always show different results.

You failed to answer.

Besides that, the GDP comparisons are meaningless.

Spending more than they take in (deficit spending) always adds to the national debt.

The problems are with the totals.

Technically he was correct, but it was said in very poor taste on his behalf. A country that is $17 trillion debt with little hope of ever paying it back should not even think of raising the debt ceiling anymore. Of course this is theory not reality.

The american economy has been dead a long time ago, running on fumes. We have a service industry and somewhat of a tiny manufacturing base which used to be typical of second and third world countries. Asian countries stole the show and the government has been complicit. Of course the bankers run everything and always have.

The only thing keeping america afloat are welfare, unemployment, lots of wars that give a temporary boost to the military-industrial complex, and of course the petro-dollar myth. An artificial carnivorous economy based on goodwill/hot air.

Observor
However, the treasury has another, hitherto unused, solution, the platinum coin route. The treasury can make a platinum coin of an arbitrarily large (say US$ 1 trillion) face value, deposit it with the Fed and have the Fed credit the amount equal to the face value to the treasury account. Then they can continue to make Congressionally approved payments without making new debt. The only unknown here is whether the Fed will agree to place this platinum coin on its assets side in the balance sheet. Bernanke may oblige as long as the face value is just enough to cover the shortfall until his replacement is in place and let his successor decide if it should become a long term policy. If Bernanke or his successor (most likely Janet Yellen) doesn't mind accepting coins of any face value as long as the treasury is willing to mint them, US can retire all its debt as it matures and never have to borrow a single dollar ever again, no matter what the revenues and what the expenditures are

putting one trillion more dollars into the system would devalue the dollar further which could also provide a blow to the already unstable economy.


In the end, the only way out of this is tough love and additional gov't cuts. Obamacare will wind up on the cutting room floor. Obama will not want it to happen but it's inevitable and since the passing of obamacare is, apparently, his crowning achievement, he can still talk about that success and the failure of implementation can rest on the shoulders of the economic situation.

Obama will fight it but, as we've learned time and again, Syria being the most recent lesson, this president is a total pushover who's words lack any valid punch.

He's all bluster and, whenever pushed, he takes a few steps back.

1104light

macman
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Bush is gone. The Tyrant 0bama is in charge.

The horse.............................................it's dead.

Oh, everything Bush did is no longer?
The two wars he started both ended in 2008 and all the dead soldiers came back to life, all the debt he put us in went away? All the bills he left for Obama to pay for were wiped out? All the policies he put in place are gone? Really?

And the trillions of dollars of stimulus funds "loaned away" by the federal reserve under obama's watch and executed by ben "helicopter" bernanke? 4-5 trillions of tax payer dollars with absolutely squat to show for it.

Some people have been laughing for an awful long time at your(and my) expense!

The sad reality of the situation is that plenty of imbeciles believe what this liar Obama just said. Surely the illiterate majority who elected the fraud.

Then you have the double talkers, even a few here in this very thread actually, who champion this kind of madness and no accountability whatsoever.

Shillism at it's finest. It's like were living in bizarro world. It's how we got into this mess in the first place. By the actions of excuse makers, lap dogs and yes Men / Women.

It's like a bus full of idiots rolling down a hill without brakes with a lunatic at the wheel named Barak Obama. = They are all stuck on the stupid wagon. ~$heopleNation

Raising the debt ceiling doesn't directly increase debt, it allows for more debt to be accrued, this is the kind of horse apples our leaders spew at us as an excuse to do more damage and stroll away with more of OUR money.

It's commonly referred to by people who have half a brain, as a half truth.

Must all be lawyers or sumpin or udder.

reply to post by Crakeur

putting one trillion more dollars into the system would devalue the dollar further which could also provide a blow to the already unstable economy.

US$ 1 trillion is likely to be only the beginning. Yes, the US$ is likely to be devalued, but not in the near future unless some completely unprepared for event like the emergence of a BRICS bank with a competing currency enters the international stage. All the competing currencies like EUR, JPY and GBP are likely to follow suit and monetise their debts, devaluing their currencies.

It might lead to significant inflation, but that will be the cost of leaving the government with no other legal option.

In the end, the only way out of this is tough love and additional gov't cuts. Obamacare will wind up on the cutting room floor. Obama will not want it to happen but it's inevitable and since the passing of obamacare is, apparently, his crowning achievement, he can still talk about that success and the failure of implementation can rest on the shoulders of the economic situation.

Obama will fight it but, as we've learned time and again, Syria being the most recent lesson, this president is a total pushover who's words lack any valid punch.

He's all bluster and, whenever pushed, he takes a few steps back.

One thing Obama will not do is default on payments while the High Value Platinum Coin Seigniorage option is still on the table. It is legal and allows the government to continue without default and without Congressional support. It is similar to Lincoln's greenbacks, the difference being that Lincoln did so to thwart the bankers and Obama will be doing so to thwart the Congress. Of course Bernanke may refuse to cash a HVPC and Obama may have to wait until the replacement is in before exercising the option. Of course, HVPCS doesn't mean the government can spend as it pleases, but the Congress can when they can agree on a budget. As long as Congress cannot agree on a new budget, the government can continue to run on the last approved budget without defaulting on payments and without getting into any debt.

1104light

macman
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Bush is gone. The Tyrant 0bama is in charge.

The horse.............................................it's dead.

Oh, everything Bush did is no longer?
The two wars he started both ended in 2008 and all the dead soldiers came back to life, all the debt he put us in went away? All the bills he left for Obama to pay for were wiped out? All the policies he put in place are gone? Really?

To 1104light:
This tired argument does not sway the opinions of thinking people. An analogy would be that the kid who drank all of dad's whiskey deserves only a small part of the blame, because his older brother took the first few sips.

For the politically aware, it is even more absurd due to the fact that Obama has continued all of GW Bush's destructive policies and multiplied some to the tenth power. Wars in the MidEast, domestic spying, and gross overspending are obvious examples. If you want more, then do some reading yourself; I have neither the time nor desire to spoon-feed you reality (and you'd probably spit it back out anyways).


To thinking members/lurkers:
The ratio of those who agree with the OP to those who disagree is hopefully representative of educated America. Still, it is disheartening to see that any person with access to the internet can bring themselves to defend the President's statements about the debt ceiling. I urge everyone to ignore posts like that quoted above, in order to preserve intelligent debate and avoid derailing political threads. Who knows how many shills on ATS are in fact paid...

reply to post by xuenchen


He is 100% correct.

It's not his fault you and others don't understand what the "debt ceiling" actually is.

The debt will actually rise faster if the debt ceiling isn't increased because interest will start piling up and compounding.

The "debt ceiling" debate was designed to confuse low intelligent people...it was successful.

reply to post by AlienScience


Interest has been compounding from the inception of the federal reserve fiat currency scheme.

It wont be compounded at a higher or lower rate than it is being compounded at now. They call it a running balance, which is composed of principle plus interest. When you cant even pay the interest it accrues and attaches itself to the principle, thus you pay interest on the interest plus principle.

What an irrellevant and rude post you made!

Here is all the proof one needs..

www.usdebtclock.org...

AlienScience
reply to post by xuenchen

 

He is 100% correct.

It's not his fault you and others don't understand what the "debt ceiling" actually is.

The debt will actually rise faster if the debt ceiling isn't increased because interest will start piling up and compounding.

The "debt ceiling" debate was designed to confuse low intelligent people...it was successful.

Interest piles up by way of Treasury Securities, all of which carry interest in one form or another.

When Congress raises the debt ceiling, it authorizes the Treasury to issue more securities to get money for bills they have racked up beyond the previous limit.

The Treasury has been using what they call 'extraordinary measures' (the Peter/Paul #2 tactic) to keep paying current obligations.

This was explained in prior posts in this thread.

Go 'Reid' it yourself !!

Observor
The treasury cannot spend anything without Congressional authorisation. In addition, the treasury cannot hold back on payments authorised by Congress. If the revenues accrued from authorised avenues fall short of the authorised spending, the treasury has no choice, but to borrow. The debt ceiling simply makes for a combination of inconsistent laws all which, under certain circumstances, are impossible to satisfy. So if the debt ceiling is not raised, the government has to Congressional mandate at least in one case revenues, spending or debt ceiling. Obama is threatening with a default if the debt ceiling is not raised.

However, the treasury has another, hitherto unused, solution, the platinum coin route. The treasury can make a platinum coin of an arbitrarily large (say US$ 1 trillion) face value, deposit it with the Fed and have the Fed credit the amount equal to the face value to the treasury account.

This is exactly correct. The people who are blaming Obama for the deficit and debt are suffering a collective hallucination in which they cannot read the parts of the constitution that give the control of taxing and spending to congress.