Desire / attachment IS the cause of suffering... as told from the Bhavachakra

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posted on Sep, 19 2013 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness
 


You've spent the majority of the thread insulting me by pretending I'm some kind of depressed emo. I don't call that agreement, I call it provocative.




posted on Sep, 20 2013 @ 03:36 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor ~Albert Einstein



posted on Sep, 22 2013 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness
 


I didn't start this thread. You did. Perhaps you should have found a tailor first.



posted on Sep, 22 2013 @ 01:25 PM
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AfterInfinity
reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness
 


I didn't start this thread. You did. Perhaps you should have found a tailor first.


I put forth that the OP is the cause of suffering.
2nd that motion?



posted on Sep, 22 2013 @ 01:49 PM
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Perhaps I have missed it, I am on my phone and also on the edge of sleep- but from the op I got the idea that suffering, in this view, is refering only to emotional sense of lack or something?
- not real literal suffering- like having your hand smashed in a door, or hunger pain?

The word seems so strong, I would call emotional stuff more like "sadness" or "attachment"... but "suffering"?? Doesn't that sound like a melodramatic term, that could only come from the most rich and over-protected peoples?


Is that perhaps a slight mistranslation from sanskrit?



posted on Sep, 22 2013 @ 09:51 PM
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AfterInfinity
reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness
 


I didn't start this thread. You did. Perhaps you should have found a tailor first.


Afterinfinity you might as well have, started it you've posted in it just as much. So apparently it means something to you.

The 12 links on the outter rim of Bhavachakra, are all links in the chain of suffering and causation, presenting it to the philoshopical forum is not "whinning" about it. Starting a rant thread would have been whinning about it.

I am not a new age type that talks softly and coddles you with a cute little helmet for your precious head and tells you you're special. The truth is reality not some ideological rainbows and unicorns, it is real, coddling works for some personality types, a slap to snap out of it works for other personality types.

It's interesting when threads like these are on ATS everyone is an expert. So fine everyone is fully enlightened and clarification of the path someone may be on is utterly useless, because they have already arrived... but quick to anger, or feel insulted. So they want just pretty words and a sticker for their helmet, they don't want the truth they don't want to come to the end of the path they'd rather roll around in the idealistic sty filled with the mud of their choosing.

I have compassion for those wallowing, so I point. I don't have any empathy for the excuses to continuing to wallow however... he beat me he said cross things to me and I'm the one whinning? You are not a child so why should you be coddled? Do you feel entitled to soft words on the path? It is a disservice, to give you soft words and coddle you because it does not suit your demeanor. You rage when you feel wronged... quick to anger. Is soft words going to help you see the hole you've stepped into? No you'll just deny you're in a hole and describe how wonderful the hole is.

Whatever the case, if walking the path interests you more than hanging out under a bridge on it does, demanding stisfaction so others may cross that is your choice, but since I am already across that bridge I don't mind popping you in the back of the head when you or any other troll asks for a toll to cross.

Sure this angers you I am sure, if the path you guard against means anything to you ask yourself why you are becoming so angry. It is not I that is the cause, I would be pretty busy if I were the cause of anger and suffering, it exists in you it is not out there somewhere to guard against, it is the same place as happiness is inside, but happiness has no room to grow because it is squeezed in by pent up anger that has it's root inside of you.

All I did was bring it out and show it to yourself, to point that that you are dragging along with you is why you continue to have pain and suffering, the attachment you have to this ego that says this is this and that is that, when it is coming from a place of ignorance then it is obvious you do not, getting called out on it angers this ego that states "I am right" and demands satisfaction or coddling.

I am presenting a Buddhist teaching tool with the OP, you can wallow and say it's wrong all you want. Coming from a place of ignorance who is going to believe you? You lose yourself in emotions, so emotions are contolling you... a sure sign you are wallowing just as bad as anyone else with nothing to add to others for liberation. I have however donned a monks robe, in the Thai Forrest tradition, I was also confirmed by my abbot Chao Khun, and left the monastery. While I have life, I have vowed to simply point the way. If you wish to argue why the path itself is better while standing in a hole while I hold out my hand to raise you out of it, tht's your choice as said I have compassion not empathy, you create your own suffering from attachment, I am not going to empathize with your attachment because it is self inflicted, and my compassion for your predicment has been pointing to it.

But as said before how much poison and how many lifetimes do you need? Life is short I hope you reach clarity, if that is what you earnstly seek, and if you seek to continue to wallow may it be many years of happy wallowing and I wish you luck in the next life.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 10:17 AM
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reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness
 



Afterinfinity you might as well have, started it you've posted in it just as much. So apparently it means something to you.


It does, actually. Taoist philosophy comprises a significant portion of my beliefs, and your argument rejects Taoist philosophy and the principles therein. So I am defending those principles. It wouldn't be a problem if you could defend your attack of those principles, but it seems you aren't prepared to do so.


I am not a new age type that talks softly and coddles you with a cute little helmet for your precious head and tells you you're special. The truth is reality not some ideological rainbows and unicorns, it is real, coddling works for some personality types, a slap to snap out of it works for other personality types.


That's a blanket statement. For someone who portrays themselves as well-informed, you generalize a lot.


It's interesting when threads like these are on ATS everyone is an expert. So fine everyone is fully enlightened and clarification of the path someone may be on is utterly useless, because they have already arrived... but quick to anger, or feel insulted. So they want just pretty words and a sticker for their helmet, they don't want the truth they don't want to come to the end of the path they'd rather roll around in the idealistic sty filled with the mud of their choosing.


I have never claimed to be an expert. I have only demonstrated my willingness to assist you in refining your premise. The difficulty arises when you insist that your premise cannot be improved, only distributed.


I have compassion for those wallowing, so I point. I don't have any empathy for the excuses to continuing to wallow however... he beat me he said cross things to me and I'm the one whinning? You are not a child so why should you be coddled? Do you feel entitled to soft words on the path? It is a disservice, to give you soft words and coddle you because it does not suit your demeanor. You rage when you feel wronged... quick to anger. Is soft words going to help you see the hole you've stepped into? No you'll just deny you're in a hole and describe how wonderful the hole is.


I am not the topic, so stop making this about me personally.


Whatever the case, if walking the path interests you more than hanging out under a bridge on it does, demanding stisfaction so others may cross that is your choice, but since I am already across that bridge I don't mind popping you in the back of the head when you or any other troll asks for a toll to cross.


You're not making any sense. Can we get back to the topic please?


I am presenting a Buddhist teaching tool with the OP, you can wallow and say it's wrong all you want. Coming from a place of ignorance who is going to believe you? You lose yourself in emotions, so emotions are contolling you... a sure sign you are wallowing just as bad as anyone else with nothing to add to others for liberation. I have however donned a monks robe, in the Thai Forrest tradition, I was also confirmed by my abbot Chao Khun, and left the monastery. While I have life, I have vowed to simply point the way. If you wish to argue why the path itself is better while standing in a hole while I hold out my hand to raise you out of it, tht's your choice as said I have compassion not empathy, you create your own suffering from attachment, I am not going to empathize with your attachment because it is self inflicted, and my compassion for your predicment has been pointing to it.


Surely such arrogance cannot come from a true practitioner of the Buddhist philosophy. I have met true Buddhists, and they are some of the most insightful and powerful people I have met. You don't remind me of them.


But as said before how much poison and how many lifetimes do you need? Life is short I hope you reach clarity, if that is what you earnstly seek, and if you seek to continue to wallow may it be many years of happy wallowing and I wish you luck in the next life.


Wallow in what? How many times must I explain to you? I merely claim that attachment leads to suffering leads to experience leads to preparedness for more effective attachments. Suffering is only as useless as those who experience it. Some of the most powerful, influential, visionary people in the world only feel and see as they do because of the suffering they have experienced. It has made them wise, compassionate, and strong. Had they not suffered, they might have turned out otherwise. It takes pain to understand pain. It takes fear to understand fear. If you wish to be of service to the suffering, you must first know what suffering is. If you wish to avoid suffering, you can help no one. Not even yourself.

That is my argument. I'm sorry if you feel this makes me ignorant, but I would love to see you refute my case. If I am so ignorant, it will not be difficult for someone as enlightened as yourself, I'm sure.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


The bare bones of the matter has finally arrived. The Buddhist concept of suffering (dukkha) conflicts with your core understanding of Taoism or insults it. So like water you rise up like a wave to crash against it, nullifying it's impact.

The Taoist path resonated with myself once up on a time. All is perfect as it should be in and of itself, without ugly there can be no concept of beauty, without hate there cannot be love... the world as it is; is in perfect harmony and it is only when we fight against hearing the symphony is when it becomes an unbearable cacophony.

The two paths share much, this can especially be seen in early Chinese Buddhism called Chan, when Taoist masters left Taoism to become Buddhists and wrote discourses after becoming Buddhist masters, many bridges of clarity between the two are found. In my early teens I saw these bridges, it was a major influence that lead me from Taoism exploring into Buddhism myself.

Yes, when describing the path I do generalize a lot. Suffering is suffering... whether rich or poor, happiness is happiness whether young or old. Rich, poor, young and old are extraneous details. The root issue is the root, covering it up with the dirt of feelings or other labels does not clearly expose it so it can be fully seen and understood. I point at the root, is it as clear as it could be? No, if it was possible then it would be possible to enlighten another being.

What you see as arrogance is compassion for you, I took up the path and donned the robe to arrive to the end of the path and enter final para-nirvana in this very life, there are many branches of Buddhism the one I chose is Theravada, it is direct and to the point a straight arrow to the end of the path. If I had taken the Mahayana path then, I would not be so firm and direct in my pointing, you would have experienced from me what you have experienced from other Buddhists. I would be kinder and gentler because I would have to maintain a certain level of kama to ensure an positive incarnation to come back as a Bodhisattva to do more pointing; and continue this "until every blade of grass is liberated"

Before, I left the monastic order there were two paths I could walk. One stay and help those already on the path seeking liberation; other bhikkhu and laity. Or the one I chose, to live out in the world with a vow to point directly at the truth by any means necessary that fits the others temperament and the situation. If I were concerned with more incarnations I would couple empathy with compassion. Empathy is important for a positive rebirth, letting go and entering into para-nirvana, empathy with others self inflicted suffering when I do not have more incarnations nor desire to grasp for more of them as a Bodhisattva, is a disservice to my vow of pointing. I point gently, I point forcefully, I point just like water filling the situation. I can be calm and point, I can be still and not point at all, I can rise up like a wave crashing into the rocks and point.

In this pointing, I will do whatever it takes for one to stop looking at the finger and see the root in the chain of causation that breaking it and pulling this root out leads to liberation. The root is not out there somewhere, it is within. Liberation, happiness, greed, suffering, empathy, hate, compassion all of those and more are within oneself, we create them we develop them, we attach to them, we mistake them for the self, we take them to extremes. In pointing to a large group you cannot be specific hence generalization. You demanded center stage so the pointing was focused on you fitting the situation and your demeanor.

Not many like a direct pointing, they like a round about pointing so they can extrapolate the meaning to fit it into their delusion... oh this piece seems to fit that spot in my puzzle I was looking for. A little Wicca here, a little Yoga there, a smidgen of Taoist and a sprinkle of Buddhism or Christianity there eventually, the whole puzzle will complete. Sure it will, but how many lifetimes is that going to take If liberation is the goal? Stick to one, and all paths become clear in the end, stick to Wicca and at the end the Buddhist puzzle solves itself. Stick to Taoism and the Christianity puzzle solves itself. All complete in a perfect picture of the whole, the colors of the different paths on top of the pieces do not solve the puzzle. Peel the descriptive labels all off and the pieces still fit in the end.

All have have been pointing to is the attachment to the colored paper stuck on top of the puzzle. " It takes pain to understand pain. It takes fear to understand fear." It also takes their opposite to overcome them. Being enamored with the path is attachment to the path, the colors adorning the top of the puzzle, by them self? They solve nothing.



posted on Sep, 23 2013 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness
 



The bare bones of the matter has finally arrived. The Buddhist concept of suffering (dukkha) conflicts with your core understanding of Taoism or insults it. So like water you rise up like a wave to crash against it, nullifying it's impact.



To the Buddha the entire teaching is just the understanding of dukkha, the unsatisfactory nature of all phenomenal existence, and the understanding of the way out of this unsatisfactoriness.


Dukkha

It can be compared to swimming against the current. You are talking about climbing out of the river, and I am talking about learning to swim better.


All have have been pointing to is the attachment to the colored paper stuck on top of the puzzle. " It takes pain to understand pain. It takes fear to understand fear." It also takes their opposite to overcome them. Being enamored with the path is attachment to the path, the colors adorning the top of the puzzle, by them self? They solve nothing.


When fire meets water, neither is destroyed. The heat of fire transforms the water, revealing its nature. The water absorbs the fire, revealing its nature. The interactivity of all things is a process of education. So when pain meets pleasure, it doesn't destroy it, it defines it. Opposites are the essence of definition. What something is, and what something is not. We require suffering to understand the mechanics of success, whether that be success in attachment or other areas. The candle is defined by the shadow, and vice versa.
edit on 23-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)





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