Starbucks becomes latest "gun free zone"

Biigs.

Think about why a company would make a bold move like this, it certainly wont be to loose money, so how might they make more?

That's a funny way to put it. Did you read the letter? It's anything but bold.

Summary: "lip service press release you are not to enforce under any circumstances."

If Starbucks starts to lose too much money over this, I'm sure they'll just expand their Cdn business. We have lots of Starbucks up here, and all our businesses are gun free zones.

On the rare occasion that someone snaps, there's often someone taking the shooter down with with a football style tackle.

If they were to sell more donuts (like Tim Hortons), they'll always be armed cops in there....

DP

I don't understand why you guys keep thinking that "gun free zones" are the reason why these shooters are picking these places.

It's got nothing to do with it being "gun free".

It's to do with the fact that they're picking places that have a lot of people gathered in a confined area... like picking off fish in a barrel.

You can't peg off 20 people in under a minute out on the open street. It's too easy for people to run and escape from.

But in an enclosed area where there are lots of people (ie: a mall, a school room, a movie theatre, an office, etc etc) panicking and bottlenecking trying to get out the doors... ? Easy pickins, for crying out loud.

Obvious is as obvious does, folks.

These sickos know that they have less than 5-10 minutes to wipe out as many people as possible before the posse moves in and takes them out.

THAT is why these bastards are choosing these types of venues to fulfill their sick and twisted fantasies.

Imagine going deer hunting and coming across an entire herd of deer standing around an enclosed open area... eeny meeny miney moe. Most hunters enjoy the challenge of the actual "hunt" aspect of it, but if your goal is to kill as many as possible... then it's a whole different strategy.

More targets crammed into one area... it's the stuff of dreams for these assholes.

reply to post by CranialSponge


Like rifle clubs, gun shows, police stations, etc...

Lots of people at those places too.

It'd be nice if they would start picking busy areas that arent "gun free".

I have 50 people packed into a building for a gun show and 50 people packed into a building where guns are not allowed. Which 50 do I attack? Hmmm.....

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


That is true, never seen a massacre at a gun show?

The fact that it is gun free is definitely a part of it, but its the crowd first are fore most i would imagine.

The lack of guns being a 'bonus' to the crazed moron

reply to post by Biigs


No doubt the first variable considered is where the most people are.

Which is why I find it so funny the government in an effort to keep us all safe corrals us into tight spaces for long periods of time for security checks.

There's literally nowhere to run to at the entrance of a security checkpoint and nobody will be armed since they're trying to pass the checkpoint where people are stacked against the fence like cattle being funneled through the slaughterhouse gate.

But the gov thinks it's a great idea.

One suicide bomber in the mix and scores can be killed. A half dozen pipe bombs tossed into the crowd and total chaos far worse that what happened in Boston.

All while people are waiting to be groped, fondled and wanded.

thisguyrighthere
reply to post by CranialSponge

 

Like rifle clubs, gun shows, police stations, etc...

Lots of people at those places too.

It'd be nice if they would start picking busy areas that arent "gun free".

I have 50 people packed into a building for a gun show and 50 people packed into a building where guns are not allowed. Which 50 do I attack? Hmmm.....

Actually a gun show would be easy pickins too.

None of those guns are loaded. So by the time everyone loaded their guns with ammo, the shooter would get a few good minutes of target practice before the gig was up.

If every single citizen in America carried a gun, these fantasy killers would just simply rig up a new strategy to complete their conquest.

And what's the conquest ?
To kill as many people as possible, in as short of a time as possible, in as confined of an area as possible.

A "gun free zone" gives them a few extra minutes to peg off as many as possible before they get taken out, true enough... but is it the main reason why they're choosing public venues ?

Hell no.

In fact, if you do a study on most of these mass shootings, you'll discover that these guys are choosing the places that have been the source of their "angst". The place where someone(s) had pissed them off.

It had nothing to do with whether or not the place was "gun free".

Following up on what a few other astute posters have mentioned, in many places this changes nothing. California for instance is no longer an open carry state, so all we have to worry about here is how it affects concealed carry. In short - it doesn't.

First, as always, concealed means concealed. No one should know that you're carrying unless a situation arises wherein lethal force becomes justified. So, what the Starbucks barista and their patrons don't know won't hurt them. Furthermore, corporate rules cannot trump state or federal laws. As long as you are not specifically banned from carrying in a location, you are legal. The banned list is relatively short (secure area of airports, state and federal government offices or facilities, Post Office buildings, court houses) and as such it's pretty easy to stay legal. Heck, our law even allows for concealed carry in schools.

So - a "no guns" sign in a storefront window has no force of law behind it on it's own. That said, if someone does spot your weapon (fail!) and the establishment asks you to leave as a result, you leave. If you don't, you are trespassing. Still no weapon violation, but you really don't want to risk losing that hard-to-obtain carry permit by sticking around, do you?

Keep calm, carry on.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


You have no idea how many dozens of times I have seen this very thing happen in Iraq. Police recruit office lines were major targets back in the mid-2000's when we were rebuilding the infrastructure. One guy in line with a vest laughing and joking, when he is 5-6 from the front of the line, +boom+ takes out 15-25 people depending on the device. And that is in an open air environment I'd hate to see the effects in a confined space.

beezzer

NEW YORK (AP) — Starbucks says guns are no longer welcome in its cafes, though it is stopping short of an outright ban on firearms.

The fine line that the retailer is walking to address the concerns of both gun rights and gun control advocates reflects how heated the issue has become, particularly in light of recent mass shootings.

www.sfgate.com...


I put this here, in political madness, because that's what it is. Madness. I was pondering the recent shooting incident the other day and it occurred to me that a shooting takes place in a "gun free" zone and laws are enacted to create more "gun free" zones.
Then more shootings take place, and more laws are passed, and more "gun free" zones are created, which creates an environment where more mass shootings can take place, then more laws can be passed, and more "gun free" zones can be created, where oppourtunities for more mass shootings can take place, subsequently (then) more laws can be enacted. . . . . .

Point 1. Addressing the gun and not mental illness will not solve these incidents.
Point 2. I realize that Starbucks has not made it a ban, but it comes as close as it can.
Point 3. How long will it be before a mentally unstable person shoots up a Starbucks?


Disclosure;
I don't visit Starbucks. 15 dollars for a "mocha-tofu-half cream-latte-swirl-beverage" is not my drink of choice.


Maybe my tinfoil hat is on too tight these days, but I see a pattern. "Gun free" zones are the next steps in disarming the population.

As always, comment, ignore, donate to your favourite charity, but please, pleasepleaseplease, don't put your hands too close to the cages where they keep the mods. (They bite)

Well the starbucks symbol is a illuminati symbol. so.... doesn't surprise me

reply to post by CranialSponge


Then why don't they ever go into an indoor gun range to take out the people? Why did the Colorado theater shooter skip closer theaters that did not ban guns and chose one that just happened to be a gun free zone? Amazing how that did not keep out the bad guy. I guess criminals don't care about rules and the law.

The evidence is clear that the more armed people are, the less violent crime there is. The more restricted gun ownership and carrying is allowed, the higher violent crimes become.

I wonder if a business could declare itself a "13th Amendment Free" zone. Anyone entering the property is subject to being shanghaied and enslaved.

Biigs
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

That is true, never seen a massacre at a gun show?

The fact that it is gun free is definitely a part of it, but its the crowd first are fore most i would imagine.

The lack of guns being a 'bonus' to the crazed moron

Well in Britain our schools and other gun free crowed places dont get hit (well very rarely) so it dont seem to be that much of a factor. There seem to be something fundmentaly wrong in America and until its worked out what then Arming teachers and putting armed guard everywere is just going to masking the problem.

I would say find the cause and treat it rather than just treat the symptom.

Why did the Colorado theater shooter skip closer theaters that did not ban guns and chose one that just happened to be a gun free zone?

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity



You do know that this guy had a weird Batman/Dark Knight fantasy thing going on, right ?

He chose that particular, specific theatre because it was premiering the movie.

Again, a shooter who chose a place that fulfilled the fantasy going on in his head.

The Columbine kids chose their own school.
This Navy guy chose a navy command center.
The kid that did Sandy Hook, mommy worked there.
The other teens that hit up their own middle school.
The disgruntled postal worker.
The Virginia guy that hit up his own university.
The skinhead that chose a mosque.
The Binghamton immigration office shooter that attended classes there.

I could go on and on with a whole slew of these, but you get the point.


So you tell me what's more obvious...
These being "gun free zones" ?
Or the fact that they have some relative connection to the shooter ?

VictorVonDoom
I wonder if a business could declare itself a "13th Amendment Free" zone. Anyone entering the property is subject to being shanghaied and enslaved.

Oh, that's good. You've just given me an idea for a new sign to hang on my back gate. I live inside the proximity to the border area that's been declared a "constitution free zone" anyway so it's worth a try. Might as well declare a ban on the 4th as well so I can keep their stuff.

Just to drive my point home, here's a short list of mass shootings:

Dec. 14, 2012: 20-year-old Adam Lanza fatally shot 20 children and six adult staff members at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. Earlier, he had killed his mother Nancy at their Newtown home.

Dec. 11, 2012: 22-year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts killed two people and himself with a stolen rifle in Clackamas Town Center, Oregon. His motive is unknown.

Sept. 27, 2012: Five were shot to death by 36-year-old Andrew Engeldinger at Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, Minn. Engeldinger ended up killing himself in the rampage over losing his job.

Aug. 5, 2012: Six Sikh temple members were killed when 40-year-old Army veteran Wade Michael Page opened fire in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Page killed himself as cops moved in.

July 20, 2012: During the midnight premiere of “The Dark Knight Rises” in Aurora, Colo., 24-year-old James Holmes killed 12 people and wounded 58.

May 29, 2012: Ian Stawicki opened fire on Cafe Racer Espresso in Seattle, Wash., killing five and himself after a citywide manhunt.

April 6, 2012: Jake England, 19, and Alvin Watts, 32, shot five black men in Tulsa, Okla., in racially motivated shooting spree. Three died.

April 2, 2012: A former student, 43-year-old One L. Goh killed seven people at Oikos University, a Korean Christian college in Oakland, Calif.

Feb. 27, 2012: Three students were killed by Thomas "TJ" Lane in a rampage at Chardon High School in Ohio.

Oct. 14, 2011: Eight people died when 41-year-old Scott Evans Dekraai shot up the Salon Meritage hair salon in Seal Beach, Calif.

Sept. 6, 2011: Eduardo Sencion, 32, entered an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, Nev. and shot 12 people. Five died.

Jan. 8, 2011: Jared Loughner, 22, opened fire at a Safeway market in Tucson, Ariz. Six people died, and then-Rep. Gabby Giffords was badly injured.

Aug. 3, 2010: Omar Thornton, 34, gunned down Hartford Beer Distributor in Manchester, Conn. after getting caught stealing beer. Nine were killed, including Thornton.

Nov. 5, 2009: Forty-three people were shot by Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan at the Fort Hood army base in Texas. Thirteen were killed and 29 were wounded.

April 3, 2009: Jiverly Wong, 41, opened fire at an immigration center in upstate Binghamton before committing suicide. He killed 13 people and wounded 4.

March 29, 2009: Eight people died in a shooting at the Pinelake Health and Rehab nursing home in Carthage, N.C. The gunman, 45-year-old Robert Stewart, was targeting his estranged wife.

Feb. 14, 2008: Steven Kazmierczak, 27, opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing six and wounding 21.

Feb. 7, 2008: Six people died and two were injured in a shooting spree at the City Hall in Kirkwood, Missouri. The gunman, Charles Lee Thornton, opened fire during a public meeting after being denied construction contracts he believed he deserved. Thornton was killed by police.

Dec. 5, 2007: A 19-year-old boy, Robert Hawkins, shot up a department store in Omaha, Neb. Hawkins killed nine people and wounded four before killing himself.

April 16, 2007: Virginia Tech became the site of the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history when a student, Seung-Hui Choi, gunned down 56 people. Thirty-two people died.

Feb. 12, 2007: Five people were shot to death in Salt Lake City by 18-year-old gunman Sulejman Talovic.

Oct. 2, 2006: An Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster, Penn. was gunned down by 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts, who separated the students by gender before killing five girls. Roberts committed suicide afterward.

March 25, 2006: Seven died and two were injured by 28-year-old Kyle Aaron Huff in a shooting spree through Seattle, Wash.

March 21, 2005: Teenager Jeffrey Weise killed his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend before opening fire on Red Lake Senior High School, killing nine people on campus, plus himself.

March 12, 2005: Terry Michael Ratzmann, a member of the Living Church of God, shot up a service at a hotel in Brookfield, Wisc. Ratzmann killed himself after executing the pastor, the pastor’s 16-year-old son, and seven others.

July 8, 2003: Doug Williams shot up a Lockheed plant in Meridian, Miss. in a racially motivated rampage, killing seven before taking his own life.

Dec. 26, 2000: Edgewater Technology employee Michael McDermott shot and killed seven of his coworkers at the office in Wakefield, Mass. McDermott claimed he had “traveled back in time and killed Hitler and the last six Nazis.”

Sept. 15, 1999: Larry Gene Ashbrook opened fire on a Christian rock concert and teen prayer rally in Fort Worth, Tex. He killed seven people and wounded seven others, almost all teenagers. Ashbrook committed suicide.

July 29, 1999: Mark Orrin Barton, 44, murdered his wife and two children with a hammer before shooting up two Atlanta day trading firms. Barton was believed to be motivated by huge monetary losses. He killed 12 including his family and injured 13 before killing himself.

April 20, 1999: Teenagers Eric Harris and Dylan Kiebold shot up Columbine High School in Colorado. They killed 13 people and wounded 21 others. They killed themselves after the massacre.

Link


Damn near every one of those are places that had some sort of connection with the shooter(s).

And that list only goes back to 1999. There's a bunch more prior to that.


The "gun-free zone" thing is just a friggin bonus for these nutjobs.

It's obvious that they would've gone through with their rampage come hell or high water. The driving need to fulfill a fantasy at a specific target place trumps any common sense for "staying alive by choosing a gun-free zone".

reply to post by CranialSponge


You're right. But you dont see any advantage to being able to put one of these maniacs down within seconds rather than waiting 10 minutes or more for somebody else to show up and do it?

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

You're right.

But you dont see any advantage to being able to put one of these maniacs down within seconds rather than waiting 10 minutes or more for somebody else to show up and do it?

Of course I see the advantage.

But...

How long would that advantage last before these nutjobs figure out a new strategy that gives them those precious few extra minutes ?

Then you're right back to square one trying to figure out how to stop the insanity.

If we don't get to the root of it, all we're ever going to be doing is working to react to something that's already happened rather than putting a stop to it (or at least greatly reducing the problem).

I think its important to remember that the right to bare arms came before house hold telephones, mobiles internet police helicopters etc etc etc.

It came about at a time when you would have to have someone, physically go get more people before a crime could be stopped - thus the gun was prevention and protection and remember that guns not everyone owned they wernt exactly cheap.

Im not saying ban guns and im not saying leave guns alone - simply saying its not the wild west any more.