Possibility of nuclear chain reaction if rods get too close together in pool

Gundersen: They’ve admitted that all the boron has disintegrated in between spent fuel at Fukushima — It can cause a nuclear chain reaction if rods get too close together in pool

Published: September 17th, 2013 at 10:06 am ET

(AUDIO) media.kzyx.org...

Arnie Gundersen, Chief Engineer at Fairewinds Energy Education:

Tokyo Electric has admitted that the boron between these fuel cells — there’s a boron wafer in between the fuel to prevent something called an inadvertent criticality, you can have a nuclear chain reaction in the fuel pool, and that’s not a good thing — but they’ve admitted that all the boron has disintegrated.

So the only thing preventing a chain reaction from occurring […] in the fuel racks themselves, is the fact they put all sorts of boron in the water.

But if the rods get too close to each other, they can still fire up again and create a chain reaction in the nuclear fuel pool.

enenews.com...

reply to post by MariaLida

There can be surprise accidental criticalities that release unexpectedly large amounts of energy. They aren't fun but they aren't nuclear detonations.

There is no possibility of a super critical chain reaction.

There was a thread posing the open question of how we free thinkers might attempt to handle this situation if we could. I suggested firing boron rods into the now melted core but, mere BBs might do as well. Anything to introduce a neutron absorbing material would help even if it burns and has to be replaced.

Report: Fukushima radioactive plume will continue to hit shores of U.S. and Canada for many decades — Impossible to remove molten cores for hundreds of years, if ever

Published: September 15th, 2013 at 12:34 pm ET

[...] Scientific estimates predict that the radioactive plume travelling east across the Pacific will likely hit the shores of Oregon, Washington State and Canada early next year. California will probably be impacted later that year. Because the ongoing flow of water from the reactor site will be virtually impossible to stop, a radioactive plume will continue to migrate across the Pacific affecting Hawaii, North America, South America and eventually Australia for many decades. [...]

As I contemplate the future at Fukushima, it seems that the escape of radiation is virtually unstoppable. The levels of radiation in buildings 1, 2 and 3 are now so high that no human can enter or get close to the molten cores. It will therefore be impossible to remove these cores for hundreds of years if ever. [...]

[...] the EPA should immediately start monitoring the fish routinely caught off the west coast and it must also, as a matter of urgency, establish many effective airborne monitors up and down the west coast and across the US continent, so that if there is another large release of radiation it will be effectively measured and the information rapidly passed on to the public. The same holds true for Canada. [...]

enenews.com... ndreds-of-years-if-ever-flow-of-contamination-from-plant-will

reply to post by MariaLida

Translated to layman terms, nuclear explosion?

Whatever you do, don't downplay the danger of an uncontrolled reaction of spent fuel rods. You could have radioactive material blasted kms away from the site and a mini-volcano spewing deadly steam and dust. It's a potential world changing event.

I'll say this and I know it sounds wrong, but I hope the wind blows straight towards Tokyo. The reason Japan isn't doing squat is because the prevailing wind blows out to sea 97/100 days.

Why don't they just replace the boron wafers? Why just pour it into the water?

Couldn't they figure out a way to use a thorium molten salt reactor to eat up the spend fuel rods?

In theory it should be able to do it.

Dianec
Why don't they just replace the boron wafers? Why just pour it into the water?

The rods are hot enough that they are boiling off the water that is put on them to keep them cool. They are hot because they are radioactive. So radioactivity is the main reason they aren't able to work on the stored rods.
There is chain reaction going on, I believe, it is the water and boron that makes it a controlled reaction. Water is a neutron moderator, and keeps the reaction slowed down. Boron added to the water increases the neutron moderation.

I think. I'm no nuclear physicist.

reply to post by MariaLida


i was ready to post the web page you just did


Fukushima is definitely in the china syndrome mode....
where the core is melted & fused radioactive metals in a sustained chain reaction that will continue to sink deeper into the Earth crust as the years go by..

hopefully the molton core is hot enough to 'burn' its way down below the water tables and aquifers

then all that needs concern is Ocean waters penetrating the hot/china syndrome core and creating a geyser of radiation tainted steam

butcherguy

Dianec
Why don't they just replace the boron wafers? Why just pour it into the water?

The rods are hot enough that they are boiling off the water that is put on them to keep them cool. They are hot because they are radioactive. So radioactivity is the main reason they aren't able to work on the stored rods.
There is chain reaction going on, I believe, it is the water and boron that makes it a controlled reaction. Water is a neutron moderator, and keeps the reaction slowed down. Boron added to the water increases the neutron moderation.

I think. I'm no nuclear physicist.

edit on 17-9-2013 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)

Thank you for answering that for me. You made it easy to understand, and were polite about it. Appreciate that. It would seem if these things are melting through in spite of their efforts then there isn't enough boron and water to keep ahead of what they are doing. I read somewhere just the other day - a female nuclear physicist professor said if it went into the earth and made it to lava it would sit on top of it. I'll try to find that. It truly made no sense to me but I'm not an expert. If these rods can blow at anytime I truly want to know why people around me say they never see it in MSM, and even those in Japan don't seem too concerned. It has got to be a coping mechanism. I find myself practically holding my breath when I see a typhoon blow through or a new quake on the map. Others are not even aware it exists.

reply to post by InverseLookingGlass


To Tokyo?

Something is not right with you and i think you are just angry!

The People here are the same like you and to punish them
for Fukushima is wrong or you should start to punish yourself first!

@ Topic.

i call it Fear-mongering, this is Arnies speciality since 3/11.

I know it is difficult for you to believe but the People who work
for TEPCO are not that Stupid and the run many different Scenarios already!

Do anybody of you saw the real Planning of this Operation
or do you just repeat what Enenews & Friends tell you?

reply to post by zilebeliveunknown


Not explosion...think of it more as an uncontrolled irradiated forest fire with no way of putting it out until it exhausts itself since it is its own fuel.

Just where is Gunderson getting his information?
From what I understand, he's not on site, nor is he working directly with them.

M.

Maybe People here have a wrong Imagination about a Fire in the Fuel Pool,
they do not "suddenly" start to burn,
first they need to be "active" (Critical) again,
this need Time and in this Time our good Guys from TEPCO
(who dedicated their Life for all of us) are able
to increase the Amount of Boron, Nitrogen and/ or Whatever!

grey580
Couldn't they figure out a way to use a thorium molten salt reactor to eat up the spend fuel rods?

In theory it should be able to do it.

Great train of thought, I certainly like liquid and gas fuel cycles and they can 'digest' the material but, it doesn't pass the simplicity test. That would be a lot more complicated (probably impossible considering the heat and concentration) than some sort of brute force reintroduction of neutron absorbing material. Probably good for making use of it if it could be brought down to manageable levels and reprocessed.

Groovy thinkin!

MariaLida
Report: Fukushima radioactive plume will continue to hit shores of U.S. and Canada for many decades — Impossible to remove molten cores for hundreds of years, if ever

Published: September 15th, 2013 at 12:34 pm ET

[...] Scientific estimates predict that the radioactive plume travelling east across the Pacific will likely hit the shores of Oregon, Washington State and Canada early next year. California will probably be impacted later that year. Because the ongoing flow of water from the reactor site will be virtually impossible to stop, a radioactive plume will continue to migrate across the Pacific affecting Hawaii, North America, South America and eventually Australia for many decades. [...]

As I contemplate the future at Fukushima, it seems that the escape of radiation is virtually unstoppable. The levels of radiation in buildings 1, 2 and 3 are now so high that no human can enter or get close to the molten cores. It will therefore be impossible to remove these cores for hundreds of years if ever. [...]

[...] the EPA should immediately start monitoring the fish routinely caught off the west coast and it must also, as a matter of urgency, establish many effective airborne monitors up and down the west coast and across the US continent, so that if there is another large release of radiation it will be effectively measured and the information rapidly passed on to the public. The same holds true for Canada. [...]

enenews.com... ndreds-of-years-if-ever-flow-of-contamination-from-plant-will

I wouldn't trust the EPA to monitor my pimple. If it all possible if the average guy/ armature scientist can some how test the fish ect and let people know whats up... Then we would all know " watz up!!"

InverseLookingGlass
Whatever you do, don't downplay the danger of an uncontrolled reaction of spent fuel rods. You could have radioactive material blasted kms away from the site and a mini-volcano spewing deadly steam and dust. It's a potential world changing event.

I'll say this and I know it sounds wrong, but I hope the wind blows straight towards Tokyo. The reason Japan isn't doing squat is because the prevailing wind blows out to sea 97/100 days.

I am not poo-pooing nuclear excursion or the danger to humans exposed to the exponential increase in neutron radiation, gamma and x-rays but, the nuclear reaction will heat up the core and expand it. The resulting increased distance between the uranium atoms will cause a return to subcritical activity very quickly. Again, no explosion.

You can see how they done it in 2012:
Tepco Source Fuel Rod

Human0815
Maybe People here have a wrong Imagination about a Fire in the Fuel Pool,
they do not "suddenly" start to burn,
first they need to be "active" (Critical) again,
this need Time and in this Time our good Guys from TEPCO
(who dedicated their Life for all of us) are able
to increase the Amount of Boron, Nitrogen and/ or Whatever!

You're dealing with lunatics, while it's a serious event and needs to be handled the extremity of responses makes a free discussion of "how" nearly impossible. The fellow who wishes it blows on Tokyo is obviously going to pop up on the news one day in a Navy Yard with a gun or something...

It is disturbing, people criticize Japan for it's attitude to Gaijin, but I recently heard a politician from Japan state he had "concerns" that Gaijin would panic in a disaster. That fools comments reminded me of that.

Not long ago there was a discussion here in regards to the possible event of a Nuclear meltdown in America, many people talked about "getting their guns" "fighting back against martial law" I brought up the point that in the event of a disaster we'd have under a week (I believe an emp strike was discussion) to get Diesel fuel to the back up generators... which I pointed out would be very difficult to do...if everyone was shooting each other and packing the highways.

I think Japan is doing great, far better than we would. Panic... is NOT an option ever.

grey580
Couldn't they figure out a way to use a thorium molten salt reactor to eat up the spend fuel rods?

In theory it should be able to do it.

Yes, it is possible, but because there is so much potential energy in the 'waste' fuel, it would cut hugely into carbon energy corporations profits, and they will continue to drive the nuclear scare scam in order to prevent that energy coming online. There are those like Peter Ottensmeyer, who speak with reason and logic about the subject.
How to re-use nuclear waste
www.thestar.com...