Mass Shootings and Mental Illness

Maybe what America needs is a base of correct moral values/rules to live by. But not just a base of values/rules but an understanding of some one who is of greater power or higher power to whom they would be accountable too if they violated any of those values/rules.

They would not be called into a court each time but it would be recorded and when their life ended they would stand before this judge and give account and sentenced for each and every violation.

Mankind before the Time of Moses had such a set of rules written in their hearts to which they knew murder was wrong and should be punished with no less than their own life to be taken for the one they took. They knew adultery was wrong and refused to engage in it out of fear of facing this higher power later to be judged and sent to a place they all knew existed Hell.

If we had only the ten commandments and ever man did his best to live by them knowing they would face the God who put that in their hearts and believed he existed as well as hell, people would be a little more caring for what they do.

But it has been removed from society as out dated, superstitious or old wives tails. but those ancient nations who did follow these rules were well functioning and it was not until they were told their god did not exist or had abandoned them did their nations turn for the worse . Just like America today.

And even if there was not higher authority or a God to hold us accountable what harm will it do for people to live my those rules it made for better societies then and it would do so for ours today.

JMHO.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


I'd be really loathe to have a Ministry of Morality type of set up. That would be awfully repressive and dystopian in my book. Besides, such a thing would not stymie mass shooters and may have the opposite effect. The media tends to fixate on what music they listened to, what video game they played or if they had a favorite television show. The problem is, none of these things were the core problem that instigated the shooter. Millions may listen to that same music. 72% of the total US population (91% of children) play video games. Some of the most popular video games would fall under the "violent video game" genre (ie. Halo). If either of these were responsible for creating a mass murderer, then one would expect that there would be a whole lot more of these kind of events. The only pop culture item that has had any direct correlation to the shooters in the 90's was a book titled "Rage". This book was so highly correlated with shootings that the author, Stephen King, removed the book from publishing. He banned it himself because he was concerned that it was promoting a murderous ideation within some students in the schools.

Despite all this, when it's a youth, the media focuses on the music, video games or bullying. In a criminal justice class, they may dismiss the correlation to all but the bullying aspect; however, even that doesn't necessarily bare out in the shooters as much of the supposition came from psychologists who never met the young men. So even that one isn't necessarily true. I have a hypothesis regarding the phenomena but, unfortunately, there is not enough available information for it to be certain and I really want to be certain before opening my trap. It's not music, tv, or video games.

White Alice

I'd be really loathe to have a Ministry of Morality type of set up. That would be awfully repressive and dystopian in my book.

Go on please enlighten us of what is wrong with morality?

Give us, at length, your view on how a set of Moral values for a society to function is repressive?

Tell us how a Morality based system would cause a Dystopian Society? Really what so frightening about a society that cares enough for each other to follow some very heartening moral values to live by? It would be more of a Utopia than dystopian.

Then when your done with that share with us your "hypothesis regarding the phenomena"?

I would tend to think your not even over 26 years of age by the stereotypical remarks you have made in your comment. But I am open to hear what wisdom you have on these subjects. Remember this is one of those threads where rabbit trails are welcomed.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


I never said that morality was wrong. I said that establishing a sort of Ministry of Morality was wrong and could be very repressive. Contrary from what you seem to think, we do actually have a collectively established set of morals to abide by. It's what becomes our laws. Thou shalt not kill. We have laws against the killing of another human being because it is consider immoral and the only time where it is "okay" to kill another is when it is out of clear self defense. Those are the kind of morals that the larger part of society is able to agree upon in a near consensus amount. Establishing an additional layer of moral imposition on social values outside of those clearly consensus driven morals already encoded into law would basically traipse into what would be very subjective. Is nudity amoral? Some would say that nudity is amoral while others would remark that the human body is beautiful and should not be hidden and a whole slew of opinions in between.

The majority of our core written laws within society in regards to morality have been passed in a representative democracy. These laws don't require even require a consensus to pass but instead get passed under the 50+1 majority rule. Those social values that are not codified in a written form are those things that there is not a 50+1 consensus on. If you start enforcing one individual or even a group of individual's opinion that does not reflect the majority of opinion, you invite serious trouble and radicalism.

P.S. I'm in my 40's and have two degrees.

reply to post by WhiteAlice


Well you didn't answer my questions as I had hoped for.

I am 54 and have two degrees also.

My point earlier was that a society that abides by a moral law and believes that they must answer to a higher authority for their violations (in addition to earthly govt) tend to be less violent and more caring.

When you remove the higher accountability and make everyone just animals where the might is right and fittest survive you end up with what we have been seeing in these mass shootings, flash mobs, and irrational outbursts of anger resulting in murder and mayhem.

However there are always exceptions to every rule granted.

I was particularly looking forward to you explanation on how a high Moral standard would lead to a Dystopian society, and how they would cause repression.

reply to post by ChesterJohn


I would say the Phiippines was a dystopia with a high moral standard. There is no divorce and no s before marriage. They live by rules of Filial Piety and never put themselves first, it is all about what you give.

There is rampant poverty, disease and oppressions of all kinds. Iwould say it was a fine example of a dystopia.

First comes the mental health 'treatment,' then comes the killing:


8-1-66 U of Texas/Austin Tower Sniper Charles J. Whitman, 25
Whitman had seen at least five doctors between the fall and winter of 1965

4-15-99 LDS Church Family History Library, Salt Lake City, UT, Sergei Babarin, 70
"Salt Lake City Mayor Deedee Corradini said Babarin was schizophrenic and had not been taking his medication"

4-20-99 Columbine
Eric Harris had been seeing a psychologist.

3-21-05 Red Lake HS, Red Lake, MN, Jeff Weise, 17
Weise was taken to a psychiatric ward in Thief River Falls after a suicide scare.

9-13-06 Dawson College, Montreal, Kimveer Gill, 25,
....(his mother) said he had been depressed, and had even sought help for it a while back.

1-19-07 Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School, Princeton Mass, John Odgren, 16
His lawyer said “He’s on a number of medications and he’s under the care of many physicians...”

2-12-07 SLC Trolley Square massacre, Sulejman Talovic, 18
His girlfriend said he had seen a counselor at some point for his problems.

12-15-07 Trevor Lapierre, 22, Kitchener, Ontario
Lapierre had been hospitalized four times in the year and half before the murder for his mental afflictions.

2-14-08 Northern Illinois University, Steven Kazmierczak, 27
Kazmierczak had been seeing a psychiatrist on a monthly basis.

9-23-08 Kauhajoki School of Hospitality(Finland), Matti Juhani Saari, 22
"Saari sought treatment of some kind last summer, and was given tranquilisers."

1-23-09 Fabeltjesland nursery/day care stabbings, Belgium, Kim de Gelder, 20
He had been receiving in-patient treatment at a local clinic.

1-24-09 Portland,OR Niteclub Shooting, Eric Salvador Ayala
"An interview by police with Ayala's mother at the hospital before he died revealed that he had been hospitalized and on medication when he was younger for depression or other mental health problems..."

4-10-09 OAED Vocational College, Athens, Greece, Dimitris Patmanidis, 19
"...the 19-year-old had once tried to strangle a fellow student and had subsequently been placed under the surveillance of a college psychologist."

11-26-09 Pecs University, Hungary
"The university's dean... said there would be a thorough investigation of the suspect's background, including his relationship with psychiatrists..."

6-2-10 Cumbria Rampage
Some sources said that before the shootings started the taxi-driver turned up at a local hospital and requested to be seen or taken in, stating that he was 'mentally ill.'

10-8-10 Kelly Elementary, San Diego, Brendan O’Rourke
He had spent at least one night in a mental ward after displaying bizarre symptoms.

3-20-12 Waller High School, TX Trey Eric Sesler, 22
"Family members said he was under some kind of medical treatment..."

7-20-12 Aurora Batman shooting, CA James Holmes, 24
"James Holmes.... was being treated by a psychiatrist--Dr. Lynne Fenton--at the university where he was enrolled ..."

9-7-12 Normal Community High School, IL Unsub
"The 14 year old student is described... as someone who was "messed up" and had a lot of emotional and educational problems. The boy was receiving some help."

12-14-12 Sandy Hook Elementary School, CT Adam Lanza, 20
"Newtown school officials assigned a permanent psychologist to Mr. Lanza in his freshman year of high school."

4-22-13 Belgorod, Russia, Sergey Pomazun, 31
"...the shooting suspect had undergone treatment at a psychiatric clinic."

6-7-13 Santa Monica Community College, CA John Zawahri, 23
"A law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation told CNN Saturday that the alleged gunman had suffered mental health issues. A couple of years ago, he was hospitalized for treatment after allegedly talking about harming someone, according to the official."


Though the odd thing is that this shrink is never identified or interviewed in the subsequent investigation, despite motive always being a mystery. Why do they not try to find out from the person perhaps best qualified to know? And this is also true if the shooter has not survived, in which case doctor/patient privilege no longer applies.

One may well say that it is not unusual for a nutcase shooter to have had contact with the mental health system. On the other hand, if there is mind-control at work, what better cover for the mind-controller than as the shooter's shrink?


/

reply to post by ChesterJohn


You asked a question and I answered it. It would be dystopian in that, when it traipsed outside of the near consensus social morals (ie. thou shalt not kill), then it would be infringing upon the liberty of the individual to have their own thoughts and appreciations. Now, if you had included the "believes that they must answer to a higher authority for their violations (in addition to earthly govt)", then I would've answered the question differently. I would've stated the above in regards to the differences of opinion and what is "good" and what is "bad" (subjectivity without clear consensus). However, I would've included the fact that, currently in the US, 83.1% of the population practices some sort of religious faith and 78.4% are Christians complete with the concepts of heaven, hell and redemption. Would you enforce your belief in a god on people who have done no harm and have firm moral values simply because you thought it would fix things? I'm an atheist but I have ever lived my life under two simple rules. !. I shall not intentionally harm another (this includes all forms of harm--physical, emotional, mental, property). 2. The only time that I may harm another is to prevent grievous harm from occurring to myself or another person. That pretty much covers nearly all 10 Commandments but I don't even take the lord's name in vain to be absolutely clear because that would be causing harm to someone who placed deep value that name.

However, I agree with your sentiments in that we are more closely packed in today than we have ever been. Have you ever read about Calhoun's rats? That human society could eventually eat itself is without a doubt but I don't think we're quite there yet. Close but not there. As far as the past goes, there were murderers, spree killers and serial killers back then, too. We do have an sharp increase since the 80's but I sincerely doubt it's media related. I'd say look to the educational system and its usage of pop psychology for that one.

There is one thing that I misrepresented. "Rage" was not the only thing that was strongly correlated amongst the school shooters of the 90's. A high number of them also were prone to quoting Shakespeare in their journals. Should we add Shakespeare to the double plus ungood pile? Or should we see teenage boys quoting Shakespeare as an anomaly pointing to another factor.

They were all very smart.

The key is moderation.

But the extremist gun freaks and the extremists “FREEDOM” folks who don’t care that our kids are swamped with immoral music, over sexed and excessive violence on TV and computer games.

Where is the moderation?

Morality has to evolve to a general understanding that there is no such thing as unlimited freedom, and human nature needs degrees of control ( moral based ) for the common good. Of course that control should be within a framework of responsible freedom.

Onami
reply to post by ChesterJohn

 

I would say the Philippines was a dystopia with a high moral standard. There is no divorce and no s before marriage. They live by rules of Filial Piety and never put themselves first, it is all about what you give.

There is rampant poverty, disease and oppressions of all kinds. I would say it was a fine example of a dystopia.

I have lived in the Philippines for 15 years, currently here in the US. However the dystopia that you describe is not caused by the Catholic churches iron fist imposing catholic morals. those laws not allowing divorce were established by the Spanish regime. Currently it is now legal to divorce

Filipino's have great amount of freedom and their poverty is not caused by morals being forced on them by the Catholic church it is caused by greedy political families (10% that control most of the nation). If those families that are many Roman Catholic would fallow the ten Moral commands of the Bible then it would be more of an Utopia. but they do not follow any moral standards either.

You put the blame on a moral standard that is really non existent in that country. It is more a crab mentality or every man for himself.

reply to post by Willtell


Moderation is a key factor for all to live by.

reply to post by Willtell


I think most people do embody that moderate view. Populations tend to fall on a bell curve of normalcy. The extreme viewed tend to be only a very small fraction of society. I totally agree, though, that pushing the envelope on all of those things has gotten to the point of ridiculousness and the grotesque. However, even with that in mind, the question of what formed these mass murderers doesn't get neatly answered in that. Instead, I'd look to see what was being done with these particular boys in the schooling system. There was a program in the schools that encouraged or may have even induced positive disintegration for some students of a certain IQ. What was precisely done and what wasn't done is either lost in time or removed from public access but the downsides of this particular thing were schizophrenia and psychotic breaks.