Where would we be as a civilization if religion hadn't become doctrine?

Funny, while participating in science fiction quiz on one SF portal, I asked about TV show Tripping the RIft. For those who don't know, it is mature show made by SyFy channel. First episode was God is our Pilot and they explored idea of the world without religion and God. (after they little bit altered history )

IMHO world without religion would be better place.

There would be no oppression of thoughts, there would be no religion wars, expansion of religion through sword and what's not..
Today we know with good accuracy age of universe, and would not be questionable if there is no book that many take for god-given words...

SuperFrog


There would be no oppression of thoughts, there would be no religion wars, expansion of religion through sword and what's not..
Today we know with good accuracy age of universe, and would not be questionable if there is no book that many take for god-given words...

But isn't it the same wrong if you oppress someone's thoughts about religion? Some people view religion as peace, so would it be ok to oppress or deny that?

What you really are saying is the you don't like the Judeo/Christian religion. I wish people would just come out and be specific about what really is bugging them. The sword has been used since mankind invented metal. Before that, they used arrows to advance their ideas. But I don't hear people condemning Alexander the Great for forcing Hellenism onto the rest of his known world. I don't hear people condemning Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun. What I do hear is this.."religion by the sword means Judeo/Christian religion".

Could you be able for a moment to decry human sacrifices by the Aztecs and Mayans?

You are cherry-picking religions.

Now who had books of scripture in the ancient world? The Mayans had the Popol Vuh that was their source of religious writings. Harappa had the Rig Vedas, Zoroastrianism had the Avestas. But you only take issue with Judeo/Christianity. Why?

You would like to think your mind and thoughts are oppressed. Can you tell me who is oppressing you currently? That's a big problem, I don't like to think you are oppressed. No one should be. But consider this, the current oppression in the world since 1918 has been in the most atheist and secular societies.

Communist USSR was doctrinally atheist, and yet the greatest oppression against thoughts were in that time. Red China also oppressed, East Germany was oppressed. And yes, Pol Phot of Cambodia was very oppressive to the point that he killed educated people.

So can you really sit there and tell me that atheistic societies are not oppressive?

First of all, I don't care what people believe, as long as they are not intending to push their believes into public school system or if they are not blocking important research such as tissue engineering and steam cell based on their faith and believes. Selecting officials that believe that world is only 6.5 thousands year old or that Book of Mormon was given to Smith on gold plates.... let's not go there...

Second, when I say that religion was expended by sword, no, I don't just mean judo-cristian religion, but islam and many other older religions. Part that most people don't know about for example egyptian history is what they did for example to prisoners of the war or deceased enemy. While Mayan are for example displayed as savages who used to kill enemy in ceremonial sacrifice, it is little known fact to public (except to researchers) that egyptians did the same, cutting hands and reproduction organs from enemy.

Late Christopher Hitchen while debating if Catholic church is force of good sums it up very nicely...



Dark ages are called that for a reason...

SuperFrog
First of all, I don't care what people believe, as long as they are not intending to push their believes into public school system or if they are not blocking important research such as tissue engineering and steam cell based on their faith and believes. Selecting officials that believe that world is only 6.5 thousands year old or that Book of Mormon was given to Smith on gold plates.... let's not go there...

Second, when I say that religion was expended by sword, no, I don't just mean judo-cristian religion, but islam and many other older religions. Part that most people don't know about for example egyptian history is what they did for example to prisoners of the war or deceased enemy. While Mayan are for example displayed as savages who used to kill enemy in ceremonial sacrifice, it is little known fact to public (except to researchers) that egyptians did the same, cutting hands and reproduction organs from enemy.

Late Christopher Hitchen while debating if Catholic church is force of good sums it up very nicely...

Dark ages are called that for a reason...

But you are still oppressing their religious expression. Let me toss it back to you, ok, why is your worldview more sacred than mine? Why are you forcing against my religious expression? Why do you demand in your world that religious worldviews are to be kept out of school? That's an oppressive attitude coming from your side.

"I like" "I think my worldview is better" and "don't force your worldview onto me" is really just arrogant idealism. How about you don't force me to not express my religious faith? Is that fair?

You can't say "Oh I don't like that, so don't force me to accept it" if you don't want me to say the same thing. YOU are oppressing my religious worldview. Maybe I don't to think like you do, maybe I don't want your worldview. Did you ever think that you are being a hypocrite when you talk about oppression? You are objecting to someone elses worldview and trying to shut them up. And you have enough nerve to call us hypocrites. Pot, meet kettle.

reply to post by truthofnitrous


The key to understanding resides thusly:

Mankind's religions and God's spiritual laws and eternal truth revealed in scripture are not the same thing.

Mankind made God in their own image through the creation of religion. The world you are living in now and the chaos all around you is the result of mankind determining for themseves what is right (of God) and what is wrong (not of God), rather then simply believing God and submitting to His ways that produce peace and joy among men.

However God's laws and eternal truth remain consistant and in place forever.

God Bless,

reply to post by WarminIndy

Please don't tell me you will play on 'oppresion' card, as that is exactly what we, non-believers were ever since those on power used religion to control mases, decide what is good/bad, moral/unmoral...

Belive what you want, just as I said, but don't act as oppresed, especially in country like USA.

We humans are past dark age, we know that for example slavery is bad, and even as instructed in Bible or qur'an we are not practcing it. Same withsexes inequality and many other things.

Just like with kids, some sooner finds out that Santa is just fairy talle, while other will take a bit more time... Same is happening with wold... We are waking....
Ps. Sorry for ruff typing, ipad without kyboard is not very frindly...

reply to post by RedParrotHead


By expanding the idea of god they allowed for the few who could truly use it to begin a truthful search for such a presence in their lives to actually become introduced to the idea in the first place.

Its probably evolving into something we haven't been able to see yet.

reply to post by SuperFrog

Dark ages are called that for a reason...

Hitchens is (well, was,) an idiot.

The Dark Ages came about with the sacking of Rome, which was not sacked by the Roman Catholic church.

Instead, the Catholic church did what it could do to preserve some level of civilization -- hospitals? the modern system of education? modern scientific methods? All from the Roman Catholic church and its activities during "the Dark Ages."

reply to post by SuperFrog


Excuse me, but you can't just go around saying "You are oppressing me so shut up" then accuse someone else of doing the same thing.

Still, it makes you a hypocrite when you demand that religious expression should not be in certain places. You can't dictate the oppression card then accuse someone else of it. Either you can be willing to see that people have a worldview different than yours (which you are doing the same thing), or you can just admit that you are desiring to oppress someone's worldview about faith and religion.

You blow your whole position by taking the position you accuse others of.

Would you care to say to me "Shut up about your religious expression"? Why is it not as valid as your worldview? Can you honestly tell me why you feel my worldview should be invalidated? So by invalidation, you have simply denied my right to freedom of speech and religious expression.

Am I telling you that your opinions and worldview are not important? Show me where I did that. Hmm, can you show me how you are oppressed psychologically by me.

reply to post by WarminIndy


It is not me who is telling 'you are oppressing me'. That would be you.

And no, your free speech has nothing to do with teaching kids non-sense in school such as intelligent design. That is more abuse of kids with teaching them unproven religious believes, don't you think so?

And that is assuming that all kids are either believers or christian, so very racist.

How many gods do theists not believe in? There have been thousands of gods throughout man's existence on this planet. Just because a person is born into a family with a history of unquestioned religious loyalty and involvement doesn't mean kids in school have to be subjected to it. If you want to foist that upon your own kids go ahead. Religion has outlived any purpose. It should well be classified a philosophy, and debate it's merit or value in current times. I mean ALL religions.

Conspiracies in religion? Since the beginning-it was suppression of knowledge. Oz behind the curtain. When WASN'T it a conspiracy?

SuperFrog
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

It is not me who is telling 'you are oppressing me'. That would be you.

And no, your free speech has nothing to do with teaching kids non-sense in school such as intelligent design. That is more abuse of kids with teaching them unproven religious believes, don't you think so?

And that is assuming that all kids are either believers or christian, so very racist.

My point is this dude, don't cry oppression then turn around and attempt to limit someone else's opinion or thoughts. That's the same thing.

I don't care if you agree with my religious expression or not. I simply don't care if you want to believe in the flying spaghetti monstor, that Red Bull gives you wings, your own self, a bottle of Jack Daniels will make you cool, that Nike will make you shoot better hoops. I don't care if that's how you believe. What I will do is say that if you believe Jack Daniels will make you cool, just don't drink and drive. That's not an oppressive statement, that's simply saying that you might like to consider not harming someone else by your expression.

But at the same time, you are going to have to respect that Christians in the world believe in Jesus Christ. You are going to have to accept that they think differently than you do about the world. And you are going to have to acknowledge that they have the right to be respected in their expression. I didn't say you had to agree with it, just that you are going to have to accept they have the right to their expression.

And you are going to have to realize that Christianity isn't necessarily about war or doing all the things you accuse us all of doing. You have managed to lump us all together. We all have our own individual expressions of our faith.

I would never say all atheists are evil, immoral agents of the dark side. But I also would never say "shut up, I don't want to hear your evil language".

So let me ask this again of you, do you think the atheist doctrine of the state of the USSR was oppressive or not?

reply to post by eggman90


Atheism in the USSR was state endorsed doctrine. Your take on that?

The STATE became the god. Your take on that?

Well, let's see, maybe if people were not convinced there was something more after death, they would maybe try to fix things here and now, while they are alive.

I see religion as a "capitalist" kind of thing, a business that keeps many in an exploitable position out of fear, guilt and ignorance.

I saw this when I was a child being fed to my parent's religion, it was like being on a little league team, being at odds with imaginary entities that I was supposed to believe in because I was supposed to just "believe" those evil things I was supposed to fight were there.

The very act of fighting things makes those things real, even if they are imaginary, if energy is aimed at fighting good, good will come out of it. I know that didn't make so much sense as it is hard to explain.

What one actively avoids, one will be pursed by, what one actively pursues will flee from them.

The world would be so much nicer without religion, we are all the same really, but religion does a real fine job of driving a wedge between us.

They had it closer to right in the beginning: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

And along came "Game theory".........................

reply to post by WarminIndy

Where do people get the impression that another expressing their contradicting opinion or view of things causes harm somehow?.

A big problem in today's society is people crying about having their feelings hurt by something someone says that contradicts what they believe.

If you're so sensitive about things, maybe you shouldn't ask for the opinion of others regarding anything, just in case they have a view which is at odds with your beliefs.

It was inevitable,and like it or not it propelled us forward as a species.
en.wikipedia.org...
Setting the stage for human religion
Development of language
Morality and group living
Evolutionary psychology of religion
Origins of organized religion
'verisimilitude' – a stage on the human journey to truth.

For those interested ...

ATS Thread - a few Near Death Experiences to Consider - it's all about LOVE

According to more than a few NDEs ... organized religions get it wrong.

IMHO ... lots of what is in organized religions drag people down instead of lift them up.

MyHappyDogShiner
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Where do people get the impression that another expressing their contradicting opinion or view of things causes harm somehow?.

A big problem in today's society is people crying about having their feelings hurt by something someone says that contradicts what they believe.

If you're so sensitive about things, maybe you shouldn't ask for the opinion of others regarding anything, just in case they have a view which is at odds with your beliefs.

Aaaaaand...that's where you are wrong about me. I am just pointing out that one side cannot say "SHUT UP, your worldview bugs me" and then complain about the other side doing the same thing.

No one hurt my feelings but I think maybe someone else got their feelings hurt. Do I need to apologize now? I never said for anyone else to shut up, I am just defending my position the same as the other side. Are they allowed to defend their position but not me? No, they can attack and attack and attack again with videos and debates and blah, blah, blah, but then get bent out of shape when someone else responds.

Let's get an understanding about me, ok. First of all, I am not sensitive. ATS isn't the first time I have ever talked to atheists. What you need to understand is that if you want meaningful and productive dialogue, you don't first say "Before we start dialogue, you shut up and listen to my side only". That's being incredibly sensitive when someone responds with "Why tell me to shut up?"

So the question is "Why must I shut up to listen to you?" We want honest and open discussion, right? So let's discuss it.

Dialogue is not about flying off the handle when someone disagrees, it's about considering what the other side has to say. Apparently your side is so conditioned to subjecting others to "shut up" that it makes you feel like we are attacking when we say "I disagree".

I disagree with your position. Now what?

Well there's this:

Though honestly I'm not going to stand by that. I guess I think the question is wrong. It's like asking what would have happened if humans hadn't bothered to think of anything ever.

Religion, myths and oral tradition were our first attempts at understanding the world and sharing common ground. 'We're nice because we're nice' isn't exactly a memorable oral tradition, but a flying cat on a flaming chariot who is best friends with the moon who came down and said, 'yo, yo imma the best cat evar be nice to one another!' then ran off ... that's pretty memorable. The cat also has a coconut for a helmet.

We knew these things anyway. Philosophers have had these thoughts and ideas without any belief in the supernatural, but the flaming cat thing is way more interesting. It's why people think Christianity invented the golden rule and just about everything else when no, it just remarketed old ideas in most cases.

I'd explain that more buuuut ... I think it's a thread on its own. >.<

SuperFrog
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

It is not me who is telling 'you are oppressing me'. That would be you.

And no, your free speech has nothing to do with teaching kids non-sense in school such as intelligent design. That is more abuse of kids with teaching them unproven religious believes, don't you think so?

And that is assuming that all kids are either believers or christian, so very racist.

Here is a classic example.

your free speech has nothing to do with teaching kids non-sense in school such as intelligent design

So what you are telling me is that my children do not have the freedom of religious expression? You have just violated their First Amendment rights. Let's go again over exactly what the First Amendment says...

Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress CANNOT prohibit the FREE EXERCISE thereof in RELIGION. That is placed BEFORE freedom of speech. That means that by the Bill of Rights, CONGRESS itself cannot establish a religion, but NEITHER can it PROHIBIT the exercise of religion. Therefore, by CONSTITUTIONAL amendment, Congress CANNOT prohibit Intelligent Design being taught in schools along with evolution.

You then, as a citizen, needs to recognize that religious people are GUARANTEED their rights to religious expression AND freedom of speech. So who are you that can't defend the rights of religious people? Are you American? If your rights are to be respected and defended, then expect that you should defend their rights as well.

You have no concept of what "establishment of religion" means. That means that the government cannot enforce or build one particular religious view above another, all are guaranteed the right to exercise freely.

So who is the oppressive on in this discussion? You have said

And no, your free speech has nothing to do with teaching kids non-sense in school such as intelligent design. That is more abuse of kids with teaching them unproven religious believes, don't you think so?

Oh no, my right to express my religion comes before my right to free speech. Like it or not, religious people have the Constitutional right to have Intelligent Design in schools and they have the right to talk about it.

Would you still like to defend your position about what my Constitutional rights are? I am an American, I was born as a United States citizen. I don't care what governments around the world say to their citizens, their laws do not govern me here. As an American, I have these fundamental rights to say Intelligent Design should be taught in American schools.

And if we want to go on to say the founding fathers were against separation of church and state, let's examine that as well...

Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

To secure the rights given by our CREATOR, the government is instituted to protect the rights of religious people.

So please, if you are American, respect my rights also as your rights are to be as well.