99% sure my friend is a (new) abductee. Can you help?

HairlessApe
reply to post by silo13

 

. . . Any implication you draw from his words is a product of your own speculation -. . .

NONSENSE.

That bit of dogmatic blather is just as unscientific and Subjective as saying that the observer has NO input into the dialogue or perceptions whatsoever.

Sheesh.

However, I have observed the OP over the years to be quite objective and relatively non-judgmental. I've never, IIRC, noticed her to inject into her observations some raging bias of her own--certainly not in a dogmatic, arbitrary, insistent manner . . . particularly compared to some . . . skeptics . . .

reply to post by BO XIAN


I wouldn't use those opening lines. They are too obvious it's digging for information. It tends to offend people using that approach. He's not 6 yrs old.

Ok , ask about his hip, how he is feeling and how did he break it anyways. Everyone asked me how I broke it. I explained. If he's not receptive to that, perhaps there is something he wants to hide, but I doubt it's aliens. I wouldn't mention the aliens just yet. Or at all.

reply to post by raymundoko


Sometimes it's good for friends to stand aside etc. etc. as you suggest.

I don't see that as all that fitting in this situation.

1. The OP is a close enough and respected enough friend.
2. The OP is cautious, respectful, mindful of fitting boundaries etc.

3. The OP has good rapport with the man.
4. The OP is likely to be the MOST HELPFUL person in the man's social network.

5. I think it's highly unlikely for the man to seek professional help with his trauma, concerns, images, or whatever related to all this. I think officials of almost any kind would be more likely to result in his clamming up tight--resulting in a worse case of PTSD.

6. I see no significant risk to the OP's involvement in the situation. Her involvement may, actually, be crucial to his working the stuff through in a successful way and a timely way.

reply to post by silo13


You won't find the gravel pit buy-outs online. It's pillow talk.

That's unfortunate your hospitals are so bad.
I'm in Canada, I got wonderful help. The pain meds aren't free but I was given prescriptions to buy them. In hospital they're free. The operation is free as well. I received two weeks of free home care, by caregivers. They helped shower me, cleaned my house etc. I live alone.

reply to post by silo13


The pics would have added an interesting factor to the OP.

However, I don't think they'd have changed skeptic's minds. They are quite dogmatic in their FAITH in their skepticism.

I suspect that you realize, as I do, that such detailed and congruent paintings do NOT arise out of thin air from 0.000000000000000% stimulus.

That's as silly as saying that a group of folks seeing a UFO land and critters exit . . . that the whole group is suffering a "GROUP HALLUCINATION." What silliness.

Hallucinations are BY DEFINITION VERY IDIOSYNCRATIC. No two individuals have the same identical hallucination. Hallucinations are by definition TOTALLY INTERNAL.

A GROUP seeing the same thing--MUST have an EXTERNAL STIMULUS resulting in the same perceptions.

Why would he be drawing ET/fallen angel type critters vs EWOKs from StarWars? etc. etc. etc.

"There is NO such thing as human behavior without a reason" (Dr Murray Banks--see youtube).

His "selection" of such critter images to paint--he says--he can't help it--they are in his head . . .

THAT IS CLASSIC abduction stuff. The critters have the capacity to inject images . . . and now, evidently our black-ops folks do, too. There's a current thread on ATS about memories being able to be injected and erased in the lab regardless of experiences.

However, the critters don't have to INJECT images into his memories--just the intense experiences with them will do such quite well. . . . which is a major factor in the resulting PTSD.

reply to post by HairlessApe


I've never noticed you to have a shred of objectivity on the topic, at all.

I'm skeptical you ever have had.

You have deeply entrenched dogma on the topic--a set of BELIEFS fueled by your FAITH in your DOGMA about the topic.

In my case, I initially was a white slate about the UFO phenomena and the critters. I let the data take me wherever it led. I still do.

THAT's the more objective approach.

And, imho, the OP is far toooo willing to doubt her own best sense and observations. She's a good observer of life and people. I trust her objectivity A LOT. It's fair-minded and above average teachable by the facts and evidence . . . compared to the dogma of many skeptics.

I wouldn't mention anything about "aliens" not that I don't believe that they exist or anything I just wouldn't go there at first. I don't think aliens would leave him there like that without help, I think they woulda fixed him up before retuning him there. Anyway I would tread carefully because he may just be "into" things that are way bigger than you.

reply to post by silo13


I don't think one needs to mystify the brain in this situation.

imho . . . his brain has merely recorded and responded to his EXPERIENCES with intense memories, images etc. No great mystery in that.

THAT'S what BRAINS

DO.

Even flawed brains do that.

Even brains on pain meds do that.

HE's obviously not psychotic, else you'd have picked up on THAT.

You are far from blind about such things!

The worst that can likely be said for his brain functioning is that he may well be on pain meds. If so, he's evidently not on such a high and frequent dosage as to be "out of it." And his PTSD has not evidently resulted in any psychotic episodes.

AND EVEN IF HE WERE PSYCHOTIC . . . ONE WOULD STILL PLAUSIBLY ASK . . . WHY the selection of ET critters, images of THEM vs images of Alice in the rabbit hole or whatever from Hollyweed etc.

The ET images as related by the OP come across to me as VERY PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED. . . i.e. NOT from some media, movie, video game etc.

HairlessApe
The guy said THE PICTURES ARE IN HIS HEAD.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh gimme a break. Sheesh.

Uhhhhhh WHERE ELSE would IMAGES AND MEMORIES

OF ONE'S EXPERIENCES BE? . . . his toenails?

Sheesh.

If you hear that and assume "aliens have infiltrated his brain" then you're ASSUMING. Assuming waaaaaay too much.

It appears to me

that YOU are

ASSUMING

that the OP ASSUMED that aliens have infiltrated his brain.

Busted.

I read NO EVIDENCE of that in anything the OP posted. The OP never said any such thing. That's YOUR INFERENCE FROM YOUR DOGMA. Sheesh.

And Bo. For the record, the argument from the stance of occam's razor would NEVER be in favor of an alien abduction. Ever. Period.

NONSENSE.

THAT'S merely MORE DOGMA from your BELIEF system.

That appears to be, BTW, a belief system addicted to avoiding a TYPE I ERROR

sooooooooooooooo intensely that you virtually assure you will fall victim to a TYPE II ERROR.

One would THINK that truly objective skeptics would be aware of the SCIENTIFIC FACT that TYPE II ERRORS can be just as deadly as TYPE I ERRORS.

Sigh.

And, sadly, it doesn't show a high degree of perceptive understanding of the application of Ockham's razor.

THOUSANDS of abduction and other UFO type experiences ARE THE SIMPLEST AND BEST FIT of all the puzzle pieces of the evidence.

Evidently you are unaware of the scientifically gathered data on more than 3,000 trace landing cases that would be true for. I think the number is now up beyond 4,000.

I do understand that you chronically appear to be one of the least objective skeptics on ATS.

reply to post by Unity_99


I guess I could go the distance that most destructive stuff comes out of satanic stuff . . . and even that the black ops folks are merely a governmental subset of that under the satanic oligarchy in charge of such stuff on a global basis.

The other assertions you make are uncomfortably close to New Age Eastern mysticism for my taste.

Thanks for your kind reply.

reply to post by silo13


PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, DEAR HEART.

Trust your instincts; your heart; your caring; your objectivity; your finesse; your bright personality in such a context . . . you are doing a list of things quite well, imho.

In terms of images from the net.

I assume you could find some representative samples close to his paintings. I'd certainly be comfortable gently showing him a few such at a time.

Perhaps before I did, I'd make the following sorts of comments looking at his paintings together.

"I'm interested in what memories may have flooded into your consciousness as you began to paint this picture."

"I'm quite keen to understand more about any memories that may have come to the fore when you began to paint these eyes."

"And I'd like to understand more about the earliest week/month or year of such memories."

AFTER I'd drawn him out as much as felt fitting with regard to his own paintings, I MIGHT THEN share some from the net.

Perhaps to say in the process . . .

"You seem to have a stronger response to this one from the net. I'd like to understand more about that stronger response."

Certainly you can use neutral phrases like:

"Please tell me more about that."
"I'd love for you to elaborate more about that point, image, memory regarding ___________."

"This discussion seems to be an emotional experience for you. Perhaps we need to pause and take our breath. If you'd rather I come back later to continue, that's fine, too. If it's better to plow ahead while the iron is hot, that's OK, too."

silo13
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

I have to say your questions gave me the chills. Especially the last one.

They’re reasonable and correct and well thought out, very well... But it still gave me the chills. Probably because I am so unprepared ho to receive the answers.

On the other hand if all I receive his answers with is love and care and understanding? Maybe that will be enough.

peace

Love certainly covers a multitude of sins, flaws, errors, goofs.

It may be important for you to keep in mind that you are THERE FOR HIM--certainly primarily. That if stuff is triggered in you--you may need to put that aside and deal with it with someone else.

IT's not as though there should be NO mutual helpfulness--but be very conservative and wise about his helping you in all this. If it is constructive for him to do so . . . and helps him work his stuff through--great. If it complicates his dealing with his experiences and his PTSD, it'd be better to lay it aside and talk to someone else for your needs that were triggered.

You knew that.

silo13
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

But atheist? OMG - he has not one speck of sand of respect for Catholicism. No regard for the church, the bible

You don't need to be religious to be a shining example of humanity. You simply need empathy.

HairlessApe
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

I'm often hostile towards claims made with no empirical evidence to back them up.

I've not observed a very empirical stance or presentation by you on this thread. I've read dogma after dogma from you.

It's an appropriate stance to take as a rational human being, especially when the points I'm attempting to counter are given in a "matter-of-fact" manner but utterly lack fact.

According to you in light of your intensely held dogmatic BELIEFS AND FAITH.

Just like all of your Bible research. Human beings don't have all of the answers. I certainly don't. But I do know one thing - human beings who claim to have all of the answers are usually the most incorrect of them all.

Certainly that's frequently true. Human nature tends to be that way.

I don't have all the answers either and have never pretended I did.

Nevertheless, I also don't feel compelled to hide whatever answers I've stumbled across in my 66+ years.

Folks can try them; take them or leave them; try them and then leave them; try them and find them useful or whatever. I freely offer them without coercion, on the smorgasbord of ideas, perceptions, beliefs, constructions on reality.

BTW, it's been said that a fanatic is someone who believes something more strongly than you do.

It's no crime to have more answers than someone who has less answers.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Except she or he is not a qualified Psycologist . It would be weird to ask about the paintings in that manner.

I don't think you need to be close to a person to have them open up, quite the contrary.

If you must ask about the paintings then do it with compliments. Ask general questions.
It's ok to comment you notice a particular theme or ask if they represent anything.
Or do the paintings have names, titles.
Artists often name their work.
That could give a clue, if he has named them.
Don't mention aliens at this point.

reply to post by silo13

Hi silo,just sent you a pm.Also,you may want to ask your friend's wife if she is aware of strange dreams he has had before,or are having now-insomnia maybe,if it is a new thing.Any unusual fears or phobias suddenly appearing in his mind? Any instances of "high strangeness'-inexplicable weird things happening lately,or even a while before this event where he broke his hip? Things that would normally be ascribed to paranormal activity?Any weird animal behavior or deaths/mutilations in the area?
Strange lights/phenomena seen in the area? Pardon the many questions please:-)
I wish you a good week,you are a wonderful friend to this couple.

reply to post by silo13


OK, warning, conjecture big time on my part in this post.

Given his Christlike habits, values, behaviors . . .

And

Given his ?intense? atheism

it may well be that God is allowing this set of experiences . . . to rock his assumptions--to rock his boat on his construction on reality that excludes the spiritual and particularly that excludes God.

God has a real . . . value, desire, to draw all good hearted folks to Himself--even those who reject Him otherwise. He'd like to have everyone choose Him. But particularly those who are loving toward others selflessly.

I will be praying that God makes Himself REAL to the man in terms that the man can wrap his understanding around.

Part of his anxiety, fears may be that the critters are an overwhelming and overwhelmingly powerful force that he feels helpless up against. . . . all the more so since there's no God in his construction on reality.

It could be a huge relief in coping with such for him to discover that there is a God who can help with such critters and goings on.

imho.

reply to post by silo13


Sounds like domestic abuse or he was doing something he shouldn't have. I doubt aliens were involved, much more likely he is hiding something. Humans aren't perfect, and being a friend of his you don't see this, but it's something realistic in nature.

BO XIAN

HairlessApe
The guy said THE PICTURES ARE IN HIS HEAD.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh gimme a break. Sheesh.

Uhhhhhh WHERE ELSE would IMAGES AND MEMORIES

OF ONE'S EXPERIENCES BE? . . . his toenails?

Sheesh.

If you hear that and assume "aliens have infiltrated his brain" then you're ASSUMING. Assuming waaaaaay too much.

It appears to me

that YOU are

ASSUMING

that the OP ASSUMED that aliens have infiltrated his brain.

Busted.

Most artists create thisngs which don't directly relate to their own personal experiences. One is not forced to depict their memories. He could easily be drawing emotionally, or could be interested in things that provoke eerie feelings. Quite honestly, I think the assumption that what he creates must be related to reality is.... silly. Yea, we'll go with that term.

Furthermore, the OP had insinuated several times that he/she thinks the 58 year old guy was abducted. So no, I'm not assuming.

I also don't hold any dogma, and you're completely wrong about occam's razor.

Occam's razor states that the most simple and practical theory holds the most weight. Secret Alien abduction without any evidence is neither simple nor practical by any stretch of the terms.

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

There is no authority in my life which lays down principles that I find incontrovertibly true.

reply to post by HairlessApe

That is very true-empathy and kindness can stand on it's own,without religion-in fact i would go so far as to say,certain religions seem to act as a hindrance to empathy,humanity and kindness.Also it lets a lot of people "off the hook" in their own minds-how much easier to say to a starving hobo "I will pray for you" than to open your wallet+just Give the poor guy a measly buck or 2,or to quickly nip into the supermarket and buy him a bread.

There's this old adage of the man who cried out to God:"Why is the world in this awful state-so much suffering! why don't you send help?"
And God replied: "I DID send help.I sent YOU"

Pity so many of his followers can't be arsed.