HOW Pope Francis can say that atheists can go to heaven

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by UnaChispa

 

You're right, I should have read it in context before replying. Apologies.

This brings up a question though, did god purposely curse the Hebrews and Israelites by giving them the law to follow? Paul says that those under the law are under a curse, so why did god give them something to follow that he knew they couldn't? Did he condemn them on purpose?

Excellent question. Scripture says that it is God's will that none should perish (2Peter 3:9). I would also say to you that the Israelites were able to follow the law. Yes, the Israelites had there trials and hardships, but they were still blessed immensely by God. God gave them the Mosaic Law to purify themselves. They were set apart from the world through the Law.

If you are referring to Galatians 3:10...

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

You must remember that Paul was upset when he wrote Galatians, because the Galatians were getting circumcised (doing works) in order to obtain salvation. He wrote that letter to correct their thinking that they were under the law.

reply to post by UnaChispa


So what Paul said in Galatians was not true? If the Israelites and Hebrews could follow the law and uphold it, why does he say that ALL who are under the law are cursed without setting the Israelites/Hebrews apart from this curse?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Sorry. I probably didn't explain it properly.

I like reading The Message bible version when I have a hard time following what the passage says.

Here is how The Message translates this passage...

So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith—this is no new doctrine! And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: “Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law.”

All who rely on works of the law are under a curse now that the Messiah has torn the veil (literally and spiritually). Jesus Christ is the ultimate sacrifice (blood atonement).

reply to post by UnaChispa


Well, that's entirely changing the meaning of the verse to fit with preconceived notions in my opinion. This has gone off topic, so I think I'll leave it there.

Those who love others unconditionally, regardless of faith, are saved. Jesus said so and now the Pope has said so, so I'll leave it up to the Christians to figure out where the contradiction between that and the Christian doctrine of faith is.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I agree with you but many will not because they want only themselves to goto heaven..people already in their little club.
I once had an argument with a Christian who told me that even If I was a decent good person I would not goto heaven because Iam not a christian, I asked what about the Dali Llama , Ghandi and other decent folk who followed another path different from christianity and she told me they will burn in hell.
I know she is wrong.

Hard core fundamentalist protestants, because of their hatred against the Catholic Church, keep passing over this part of what the pope said -

that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart.

When that part is kept in mind, what the pope said is just fine and doesn't conflict with any part of Christianity. The atheist has to acknowledge God and ask forgiveness ... then he/she can go to heaven because God doesn't turn anyone away who comes to Him and asks for forgiveness.

Common sense Christianity.
He said what has been said by Christianity for 2,000 years.

reply to post by boymonkey74


If Christians admit that not only Christians make it to heaven, they would admit to believing a lie. If they admit to that lie, where is the next lie at and where do they end? Instead of falling down that hill, they put up their guard and continue to believe in the first lie. It's hard for people to admit to being gullible, especially with something as touchy as religion.

reply to post by adjensen

Right there, we can see, scripturally, a basis for what Pope Francis is saying -- it doesn't say "All of these people who professed belief get in, and all these people who didn't are excluded", it says that, irrespective of anything else, loving your fellow man, doing good, is what will separate the goats from the sheep.

First of all, the sheep and goat judgment doesn't have anything to do with Heaven, but it's a judgment that is rendered to see who will enter into the Millennial Kingdom here on earth. We can tell this by mention of earthly "nations" and mention of the "inheritance". The inheritance is the land that God promised to Abraham and that's where Jesus will reign during the earthly Millennial Kingdom period that takes place before the final Great White Throne Judgment.

We already know that those martyred for Christ during the Great Tribulation period will automatically enter into the Millennial Kingdom. The sheep and the goats are the remaining survivors that are judged to see if they get to enter. The rest of the dead aren't judged until after the Millennium is over. The Millennial Kingdom will be the last chance for people to multiply, live in peace, and come to faith, if they haven't already.

There's nothing like the classics for effective point-proving...

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

I believe that trumps anything ol' Francis can come up with. If you don't believe Jesus was God's son, you're doomed... and if you do believe it, you automatically also believe in God the Father. How can the Pope claim otherwise?

There are numerous scriptures that clearly state Yahoshua (God is salvation) is saving/delivering everyone.Salvation is not an event it is an infinite process of God repenting (changing ) mankind from death (hades ...the grave,the realm of the dead,the realm of impercption) to life(spirit).

The fact is common sense is all that is needed to perceive that God is saving not destroying man.It is in Gods nature(name) to save create life/spirit (God is spirit ...not "a" spirit) not destroy it.

Christianity is very wrong about "their" rules for salvation.First.. EVERY knee WILL bow and tongue confess(metaphors) that Yahoshua is God.....there are no exceptions.Physical death is not the cutoff period.That is very fortunate for many of the many are called religious because they will not be forgiven in this age(present physical realm) nor the one to come of their blasphemy against Spirit for believing in the eternal punishment of hell.The have been blown up by the own petard as Yahoshua clearly states in Matthew 7:1.

Forgiveness is not pardoning guilt as the many are called religious believe.Everyone is 100% accountable for ALL of their guilt and will be judge justly by God.Forgiveness is being freed from bondage.That's the process of salvation/deliverance where the first stage is being set free from the captivity of religion...the doctrines of men that make void the LIVING word of God.

Yahoshua came to save ALL and has done just that or has failed miserably as so many of the many are called believe who don't have faith in the Gods salvation.The Truth is ..mans will does not trump Gods will ...ever.... no matter what anyone believes .....including a pope.

reply to post by k21968

There is no grey area as far as going to heaven or hell

Hell is a myth. I'm getting prepared to make a(nother) thread about how it became part of various denominations' "doctrine" - it's a pagan fable used to control the ignorant masses that was (re)used by Dante Alighieri and John Milton and therefore "resurrected" in the middle ages -

but it is NOWHERE in the original Bible. The words have been mistranslated (making the entire English version of ANY faith suspect).
30ce.com...

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


No, that was part of their covenant. They knew the terms before agreeing. Their first term was "have no other gods before me". That's kind of straightforward.

But with man, he is always looking for loopholes. Even under the New Covenant, man is still looking for loopholes. They have used the concept of grace to live a life of immorality and justified their actions by saying they are no longer under the law. They don't even know what the law is. The Bible makes it plain that the law is for the lawless. Therefore, if we are lawless, then we are under the punishment of the law. Grace can only be extended when we recognize the need for grace.

You have people who say "I'm under grace". Well, if you are under grace, does that give you the right to continue in sin that you should have turned away from? The loophole here is..."it's not sin if my pastor or denomination says it's not sin". Regardless of grace, a sin is still a sin. If you murder someone, no matter how much grace you you are shown afterwards, they are still dead.

Good works go hand-in-hand with faith. And I think people don't understand the concept of works, they think that works means you do sacrifices to bring about your salvation. That's simply not what it means. You do have to do good. Doing good is not a work we take on just to get brownie points with God, doing good is what we should have in our hearts.

That's what Paul was talking about, the continual offerings of sacrifice that didn't change their hearts or actions. You must have faith in God that He is able to change your heart so that you don't have to keep sacrificing dumb animals.

Micah 6

6 Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? 9 The Lord's voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.

This is for the Christian. He says here "Hear the rod and who appointed it". Who is the rod? Jesus Christ. And if Micah is talking to Christians, therefore God has shown us what is good and what is required of us.

It is REQUIRED for the Christian to do good, love mercy and walk humbly with God. Even the prophet under the law got that one, works based salvation is nothing but an endless cycle. But after salvation, after we hear the rod, there is now a requirement to doing good.