Revisiting Thermite

wmd_2008
It's NOT BS the reason the penthouse fell was because the structure below it had FAILED!!!!

Okay, so are you trying to claim that the penthouse was supported by the entire structure of WTC 7? And that because the penthouse fell through the roof, you're claiming the entire structure of the building below had failed.

Is that the claim you're trying to make here?


Well, that is BS. Just because something falls through the roof, does not mean the entire structure is compromised.


You have no idea of what part of the roof or structure below it supported that mechanical penthouse. You have no idea what part of the structure was damaged below it to cause the penthouse to collapse through the roof. You have no idea how much damage was created to the structure as a result of the penthouse collapsing through the roof.

Nobody knows. We only have a shoddy NIST report that has only half-truths, and incompetence as far as scientific and forensic investigations are concerned.

Now I believe beyond any reasonable doubt that the goal is not to prove the government right, but to prove the truth movement wrong. That speaks for itself.

reply to post by whatsecret


I've often wondered if these 9/11 Debunkers who Post on ATS don't have a " Hidden Agenda " when it comes to Truthers trying to present Facts that Refute the Official Goverment Explanation of what happened on 9/11 . Who are these people , and why do they persist in perpetuating the " Big Lie " that by now Most people see it for what it really is , a Deception from Logic ? IMO , they have become irrevenant for the simple Fact that Many of them still probablly think the World is Flat too........

whatsecret
Now I believe beyond any reasonable doubt that the goal is not to prove the government right, but to prove the truth movement wrong. That speaks for itself.

That's been an ongoing theme for a long time now.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Let me start off by saying that I truly welcome responses like yours, because unlike the many of the responses i usually get you have actually put some effort and thought into your response so i can respect that. Its clear you know your topic, so please do not assume that I am out to change your mine with this response.

So you start of by saying the following.

Well, this OP is chock full of misinformation, disinformation, and misdirection. Let's try to clear some of it up, shall we?

I am very clear at the start of this thread that I am not a chemist and this is not my area of expertise and as such i encourage all members to visit the links and watch the videos of the OP. If there are any mistakes they are my own, they were unintentional and thank you for raising them.

You then move on to discuss WTC-7 arguing that the point of collapse does not start when the penthouse collapsed.

I am sorry but this is wrong, the penthouse collapsed because for whatever reason the floors below it must have already collapsed meaning that it did not have anything to hold it up hence it collapsed. So yes that is where the collapse initiated, in fact it was probably a second or two before it actually fell as the floors below it would have been falling first. As such it took longer than 6.6 seconds.

You then make a point about the the building collapsing "mostly into its own footprint" and while this might be true to a extent, Jones does use the word's "completely int its own footprint" this is a factual error on his part.

Yet an error on my part that you do highlight quite rightly is that Jones did not resign but rather he retired, you must forgive me getting this detail wrong. However the main point i was making was that BYU put him on administrative leave over his increasingly speculative work that did not meet academic standards.
Indeed in his documentary on the subject he makes it quite clear that this was a very difficult decision for him but he was essentially forced into it by the university.

The only reason I made mention of his paper regarding Jesus visiting America was to highlight how wacky some of his research had became it was not a personal jibe at his religious beliefs, after all he published the paper.

They went to numerous different media to present their findings. Most mainstream media publications would not entertain any alternate theory concerning 9/11. And most of them still don't to this day.

Well actually several media networks picked up on Jones's work at the time he began publishing, again this is evident in his documentary.

And its not about going to to the media publications that is the issue but not going to a established academic journal to publish their findings.

Also when i say he can't prove where the dust sample's came from i mean he does not have any way of knowing if these people definitely got the dust samples where they claimed to and when they claimed to as they were not collected in a scientific way. Their collection was not documented they were not kept in sterile conditions to ensure they did not become contaminated an so on.

Finally, the issue of Barium Nitrate, Jones research paper did not mention any Barium nitrate and subsequent research has not isolated any Barium nitrate in adequate quantities to support the idea that Thermate was used. Lets not forget Jones talks about thermite or "nano-thermite" but not thermate. The reason for this is because he didn't find any.

Again Thank you for posting.

_BoneZ_

wmd_2008
It's NOT BS the reason the penthouse fell was because the structure below it had FAILED!!!!

Okay, so are you trying to claim that the penthouse was supported by the entire structure of WTC 7? And that because the penthouse fell through the roof, you're claiming the entire structure of the building below had failed.

Is that the claim you're trying to make here?

I don't believe you are idiotic enough to believe your own statement there, what do you think defines the start of a collapse please enlighten everyone.

OtherSideOfTheCoin
I am sorry but this is wrong, the penthouse collapsed because for whatever reason the floors below it must have already collapsed meaning that it did not have anything to hold it up hence it collapsed.

The penthouse resided on the roof. Whether there were extra supports below the roof to support the penthouse is unclear. However, because the penthouse resided on the roof, the penthouse falling through the roof only indicates that the roof caved in. A roof cave-in does not constitute the start of a building collapse.

Only the building collapsing as a whole constitutes a building collapse.

OtherSideOfTheCoin
The only reason I made mention of his paper regarding Jesus visiting America was to highlight how wacky some of his research had became

As I stated previously, it's only "wacky" to those close-minded individuals who aren't very researched in theology and science. Furthermore, his "Jesus" paper had absolutely nothing to do with his credibility as a physicist, or his being put on paid leave and ultimately retiring.

Sorry, but the relevance just isn't there. It's wacky to you his "Jesus" views and his 9/11 views. It may not be wacky to others.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Bonez
how exactly can one see molten steel beams? I thought they were molten? If its molten, that means liquid, yes? How can it be a beam if its molten?

_BoneZ_

Only the building collapsing as a whole constitutes a building collapse.

So at what point do you start the stopwatch based on that statement above ?

GenRadek
reply to post by _BoneZ_

 

Bonez
how exactly can one see molten steel beams? I thought they were molten? If its molten, that means liquid, yes? How can it be a beam if its molten?

their was plenty liquid beams months later in the basement

geobro

GenRadek
reply to post by _BoneZ_

 

Bonez
how exactly can one see molten steel beams? I thought they were molten? If its molten, that means liquid, yes? How can it be a beam if its molten?

their was plenty liquid beams months later in the basement

You think so ?

reply to post by _BoneZ_

The penthouse resided on the roof. Whether there were extra supports below the roof to support the penthouse is unclear.

Like i have already alluded to in this thread i do have respect for your posts.

But dude, this just is not logical.

The East Penthouse collapsed, this means that what ever was supporting it, what ever was holding it up must have collapsed thus causing the collapse of the mechanical penthouse. As such this is obviously the start of the collapse as it is the start of the structural failure.

Even if you totally ignore NIST then this point still stands.

, his "Jesus" paper had absolutely nothing to do with his credibility as a physicist, or his being put on paid leave and ultimately retiring.

Sorry, but the relevance just isn't there. It's wacky to you his "Jesus" views and his 9/11 views. It may not be wacky to others.

I think this is the problem when the world of academia and conspiracy clash.

It is relevant to look at a authors previous works when discussing and critiquing the authors other works. Jones published this paper regarding Jesus visiting America for public consumption so it is subject to public and academic critique. When critiquing his work on 9/11 a part of that critique is to point out that this author has published previous questionable papers and as such his questionable work regarding 9/11 is not with out precedent.

Sorry but these two points still stand regardless of what you might think of them, the collapse of WTC-7 initiated at the point of collapse of the mechanical penthouse and Jones had written previous questionable research regarding Jesus having visited the America's.

reply to post by geobro

their was plenty liquid beams months later in the basement

What?

How can a beam, something which by implication is in a solid state of matter, at the same time be in a liquid state of matter.

this statement makes no sense.

OtherSideOfTheCoin[
As such this is obviously the start of the collapse as it is the start of the structural failure.

If you take a look around the internet, you'll find many houses and buildings where the roof collapsed or caved in, but the house or building itself did not collapse.

Therefore, when the roof collapsed causing the penthouse to fall through the roof, that only indicated the roof collapsing, not the start of the building collapsing. People who think they can debunk alternate 9/11 conspiracy theories desperately try to cling onto that extra collapse time and count the time from when the penthouse collapses, so they can claim that the building didn't collapse at or near free-fall speeds.

And that is deception on the part of the person who's acting as the "debunker". As I stated earlier, if the penthouse had collapsed 5 minutes, or 20 minutes before the rest of the building collapsed, I wonder of OCT proponents would claim that 5 minutes or 20 minutes into the collapse time. It just doesn't work that way.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You can add as much time onto the collapse of WTC 7 as you wish, but the building came down in ~6 seconds, and NIST even admits that for at least 1/3 of that time, the building fell at free-fall speed. Which is impossible in a building collapse that is not from controlled demolition.

Controlled demolitions remove the resistance below, normal building collapses can not and do not.

OtherSideOfTheCoin[
Jones had written previous questionable research regarding Jesus having visited the America's.

Dr. Jones is a Mormon. The Mormon faith believes that Jesus visited the Americas. What you're then implying is that if you're a Mormon, you shouldn't be a scientist or a physicist because somebody might not take your science too seriously.

That's just absolutely absurd. His Mormon faith had no bearing on his work for the Department of Energy for almost 10 years, and his faith should have no bearing on anything else in his life.

What you're trying to do is make it a point that because of his religious faith and what his faith believes in, that makes his scientific research questionable. The ignorance of that just baffles my comprehension.



So much for freedom of religion. If you believe in certain faiths, then your scientific credibility will suffer. Unbelievable.........

_BoneZ_

OtherSideOfTheCoin[
As such this is obviously the start of the collapse as it is the start of the structural failure.

If you take a look around the internet, you'll find many houses and buildings where the roof collapsed or caved in, but the house or building itself did not collapse.

Therefore, when the roof collapsed causing the penthouse to fall through the roof, that only indicated the roof collapsing, not the start of the building collapsing.

The building DID collapse so at what point do YOU start the stop watch.

_BoneZ_


Jones had written previous questionable research regarding Jesus having visited the America's
Dr. Jones is a Mormon. The Mormon faith believes that Jesus visited the Americas. What you're then implying is that if you're a Mormon, you shouldn't be a scientist or a physicist because somebody might not take your science too seriously.

That's just absolutely absurd. His Mormon faith had no bearing on his work for the Department of Energy for almost 10 years, and his faith should have no bearing on anything else in his life.

What you're trying to do is make it a point that because of his religious faith and what his faith believes in, that makes his scientific research questionable. The ignorance of that just baffles my comprehension.



So much for freedom of religion. If you believe in certain faiths, then your scientific credibility will suffer. Unbelievable.........

He is NO structural engineer is he

reply to post by the2ofusr1
I just finished listening to Guns and Butter "9/11 and the Politics of War" with Christopher Bollyn as a guest ..He brings up his part in uncovering the thermite issue as well as some other information I had not heard before ..Its a audio and is a hour or so long ...peace www.kpfa.org...

reply to post by geobro
In the link above the liquid beams are mentioned and were reported .....peace

reply to post by the2ofusr1
This is another interview that is talking about the molten steel...thermite anyone ...
Re-Think 9/11: Richard Gage and Pam Senzee on Building 7 and Need for New Investigation www.peterbcollins.com... its also a audio podcast ..Peter B Collins

reply to post by _BoneZ_


The fact of the matter is that the collapse of the mechanical penthouse signifies the start of the collapse of the building its really very simple i cant quite understand why you contest this point.

And in addition to this yes Jones is a Mormon but he also published a paper regarding Christ having visited America as such this is open to criticism because he is a academic who published this paper. I am not having a dig at his religious beliefs in anyway he published this paper for public consumption and it is therefore open to public criticism.