On the verge of leaving religion behind as "poison", but where does morality come from then?

I thought for a long time that evidence shows that religion, spirituality and mythology is all about exploitation.

I've tried to expose some of the worst excesses of religion, but I always thought the problem was a mixture of power and religion, rather than religion itself.

By religion I mean anything that has to do with beliefs in a "God", or gods, the soul, prophesies and so forth ...

I still enjoy religious music, although I guess it is all hypnosis.

I feel like I'm on the cusp of becoming an atheist or agnostic.

But something is drawing me back.

For a long time I mixed reborn Christianity with other faiths, like Hinduism or shamanism.
I also questioned many of the gender discriminations in religions, and the bigotries between religions.
That already made me hell-bound according to some popular sects.

So, except for the fact that I like religious music, I have also developed other problems with religion.

But, I also feel that without the holy scriptures (like the Bible, Koran or Bagavad-Gita) we would have no morality.

I see these believers in Godhead causing much bloodshed and problems, but wouldn't it be worse if children had no morality?

What do atheists tell children on morality AND WHY THEY SHOULDN'T DO WRONG THINGS?

halfoldman


What do atheists tell children on morality AND WHY THEY SHOULDN'T DO WRONG THINGS?

I was taought the difference between wrong and right. Why would that have anything to do with God? It has everything to do with human relationships. TRUTH speaks for itself. When you hurt somebody and see them get hurt it makes you feel bad. Other people tell you it's bad. You stop. Pain of not beign accepted Socially breeds morality. (basic morality)


And then when you are older you start imagining being other people. You come to the conclusion you have to be nice to everybody, because they could be you... Morality can not be dogmatic or it will be wrong in many cases. Sometimes you have to fight back. Other times it's good to turn the other cheek. Morality imposed upon you is unchanging.

Morality comes from within. I hear that's where the kingdom of heaven is too eh?

Books and men with robes can go fly a kite. Might do them some good.

Oh and I don't mean any disrespect to christians, I happen to Love Jesus myself. I like to fly solo though.

reply to post by Dustytoad

Hopefully, maybe; perhaps for most people.

I'm not so sure that treating others nicely is such an automatic jump towards "natural empathy".

Popular forms of religion usually don't really ingrain human rights either.
However, I sometimes think they do dampen the worst abuses.

One can possibly talk about global exploitation and abuse, and it seems nobody really cares or is moral.

reply to post by halfoldman


When I began to ponder this issue, these two bits of information were referenced to me and started me on my way. May they also benefit you in some way. Peace


Babies may know good from evil: new study


"Altruism: co-operation increases fitness"

halfoldman
I thought for a long time that evidence shows that religion, spirituality and mythology is all about exploitation.

I've tried to expose some of the worst excesses of religion, but I always thought the problem was a mixture of power and religion, rather than religion itself.

By religion I mean anything that has to do with beliefs in a "God", or gods, the soul, prophesies and so forth ...

I still enjoy religious music, although I guess it is all hypnosis.

I feel like I'm on the cusp of becoming an atheist or agnostic.

But something is drawing me back.

For a long time I mixed reborn Christianity with other faiths, like Hinduism or shamanism.
I also questioned many of the gender discriminations and bigotry between religions.
That already made me hell-bound according to some popular sects.

So, except for the fact that I like religious music, I have also developed other problems with religion.

But, I also feel that without the holy scriptures (like the Bible, Koran or Bagavad-Gita) we would have no morality.

I see these believers in Godhead causing much bloodshed and problems, but wouldn't it be worse if children had no morality?

What do atheists tell children on morality AND WHY THEY SHOULDN'T DO WRONG THINGS?

You don't need religious text to teach children right from wrong. Why do you even think that? We have laws and the basic tenet of all laws is that your rights end where others' rights begin.

reply to post by halfoldman


The Pope said listen to your conscience (higher self). I guess that would depend on your orientation (service to others, or self).

I walked away from organized religion a few years ago. Since then, after much contemplation, study, and less "religio-materialistic" static, I have a deeper appreciation, and sense of thankfulness, for our Creator.

reply to post by RealWoman

Well said, and nothing wrong with that as such.
But is that what really happens?
Is the law always fair, and justice blind?
Would all communities view that the same way?

And besides, where does that law come from?

If the law (wheresoever it comes from) = justice, then why did the US need so many movements from minorities for justice in history?

reply to post by halfoldman



Being spiritual does not have to include a religion. And even the good parts of any religion are about treat another how you wish to be treated. Seems pretty easy to me.

reply to post by halfoldman


reply to post by halfoldman


If you judge this rightly, you can follow the fruit of your decision to the truth. Choosing to disallow God as truth means you have a variety of new choices in life. All of those choices will lead to rotten fruit. Choosing to see God as truth disallows the actions that lead to rotten fruit. There is a passage in John that basically states that a person who follows the will of God will know the truth behind the Gospel. This is the only way to actually see the merit of what Christ came to show us. Ignoring truth means that you have the freedom to choose error, yet that very choice then robs you of what Truth is there to show you. By choosing to restrain the choice of sin, you are anchoring your motive on the goodness of truth itself, therefore engaging the evidence for truth by default. This works in opposite. If you engage sin with no restraint, you are acting against truth. What happens in this case? Truth is still there, but crushes you as a result of poor choices acting against truth.

Break the law and the law breaks you. All actions have a reaction and we recognize morality by the fact that it is founded on truth. Disbelief in God is a licence to break the law, yet the law cannot be disallowed. Belief in God restrains us in life, but engages a fruitful life in exchange. Only positive can come from using the law to your advantage and this advantage comes to those who have faith in the governor of the law. Ultimately, this is the very evidence that scripture promises to show you as proof positive there is a God behind scripture. At no point can the invariable nature of truth be shown to be a lie. It is the same no matter how you look at it. The morality you are referring is simply a higher standard given to us as reflected in nature. In physics, this is the invariant symmetry of the strong nuclear force. It is the guardian of the strong house (Father). In Hebrew, the word Father is Aleph Bet. Aleph is strong and Bet is house. How do you disengage the need for law?

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The thing that draws you back is simple. When you trust your own version of reality you engage the law by choices motivated to take for self. When you trust God and live in His will (to give only), the law is pushed aside with faith and you give to others as a reflection. Where love abides, there is no need for law. There can be no more higher moral standard that this. God's goodness and truth is evident if you are in His will (giving over taking). If you walk away, that truth will become evident by the fire you burn by. Taking as a thief always ends in debt. Either you light the fire you burn by or you use that fire as a light on the path for others. It all depends on which side of truth you decide to walk. Taking makes you a thief. Giving makes you a saint. Test the waters and see how it goes. What are you able to do if God is false? What is the fruit that will follow? What harvest of goodness are you able to reap with restraint and patient endurance? In every case, restraint opens you up to more opportunity for good things in life. Why? You suffer for what you gain at the end.

Here is an easy example: Smoke and you suffer ill health. Why? You took a reward that ended in a debt. Flip this. Suffer a job and you get a paycheck. Work out in the gym and this suffering brings more health. Suffer your paycheck to your family instead of wasting it on cigarettes and booze and your family reaps the reward you give up. In the end, that family is your strong house when you are old. How is this different than being in God's family or walking away for your own selfish desires?

Either way, you'll see the truth of the matter if you know the truth already. It sounds like you do. I can easily make the clam that I know your motivation. How? It's the same for all of us. We desire for God to not be truth so we can have licence to take for self. This is why you know the difference and why morality is evident as a divine origin.

reply to post by abeverage

How can one have spirituality without religion?
I thought I did, but now it seems that was really pan-religious beliefs.
But yes, fair enough, one could have it in some movements.

Some people do terrible things to themselves.
They even kill themselves.
Not to judge, but I'd like to be treated better than many people like to treat themselves.
Many people don't respect themselves at all.
How can they respect others?

However, it is a thought exercise really, and that is the basis.
Who thought of it first?
Not sure, some say it already existed in Chinese philosophy (religion) and so forth.
But that is also one basis of Christianity.
As such it kinda begs the question.

reply to post by halfoldman


Follow your conscious. That is what I do. My brother once told me that if it weren't for the bible he would not know right from wrong. I never felt like I needed the bible to tell me what is right and wrong. Besides, things that are right and wrong for you, others may see differently, so follow your conscious.

A verse that stood out to me as I was challenging my religion was "He who knows to do right and does it not, to him it is sin. To me that did not mean just being told, or reading it. It mean those things that had become a part of who I am as a person and were right and wrong for me and my conscious, regardless what a religion or society says.

The rules in the bible were for a people who were just learning how to behave in a just way. Most of us come endowed with these values. You do as well or you wouldn't be questioning.

Best wishes on your journey.

reply to post by halfoldman


I have raised my children without religion, however I don't shelter them from it either. I believe religion teaches morality through an overwhelming sense of guilt. Like god ( and Santa) teach the same morals through babysitter mentality. I taught my kids that its the decisions you make when no ones looking that matter.
I think the difference between spirituality and religion is the former has no deities...kind of like Taoism, thats where I found some solace. Start with the Tao of Pooh. Its a good read it explains Taoism through the exploits of Winnie the Pooh.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Well, that's all coming from a religious point of view, and it is well put.

There's a reap as you sow trope (very similar to Eastern concepts of "karma", although in that paradigm it is tied to reincarnation).

The danger here is that it makes certain assumptions of causality, as if only the morally wicked get certain diseases and die.

I've heard of young people dying of lung cancer that never smoked, and people who got HIV/AIDS that made one mistake, or even caught it in marriage.

Why does God give even innocent people the death sentence, when others live sinful lives to a ripe old age?
I know of people in their 80s who are merrily smoking, and others who only eat sweets and junk, and people who are immune to HIV.

Why would God be so inconsistent?

halfoldman
reply to post by abeverage

 

How can one have spirituality without religion?
I thought I did, but now it seems that was really pan-religious beliefs.
But yes, fair enough, one could have it in some movements.

Some people do terrible things to themselves.
They even kill themselves.
Not to judge, but I'd like to be treated better than many people like to treat themselves.
Many people don't respect themselves at all.
How can they respect others?

However, it is a thought exercise really, and that is the basis.
Who thought of it first?
Not sure, some say it already existed in Chinese philosophy (religion) and so forth.
But that is also one basis of Christianity.
As such it kinda begs the question.

edit on 13-9-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

I know have a spirit or a soul or if you like consciousness this part of me is damaged by hurting others, complete selfishness and other petty things.

You are correct that some people do indeed kill and other horrible acts but this does not affect your actions unless of course you are in danger. Do you believe that hurting others is ok? Do you wish to be like that? People who find little or no remorse are spiritual stunted or do not wish to grow. You decide your motivations and feeling not other people or the observations of other people although you can learn that way. If you do not, you are just playing games with yourself. So how would best like to see yourself?

To me spirituality comes from making this part of me better regardless of an afterlife, because I wish it. To learn and grow hopefully seeing my potential but also accepting failure as a learning experience.

You already know who has the answers you are seeking and who holds the keys to contentment or happiness, if not take a good look in the mirror.

reply to post by halfoldman


I never understood why a lack of religion implied a lack of morality. Like instinctively we as human beings are some how immoral. This is a product of religion that teaches you that you aren't anything important or special, that you are born of SIN and must spend your life repenting for a chance at eternal happiness.

When I thought about this when I was figuring out my own quams with religion, I came to the conclusion that these things are mostly inherent.

Children for example, who have no real concept of religion or God, aren't murdering little heathens up until the point they can read a religious text are they? Children display behavior that is typical of the adults around them. The adults around them chose this behavior and set of morals and ideals based on the small group of people in their lives they respected.

Morality is subjective, in a lot of it's different applications, but then very straight forward in others.

Drinking and Smoking? Subjective.

Murder? Not Subjective

See what I'm getting at? There is absolutely no need for divine intervention or worship in order to live a life that is both rewarding and moral, according to your own standards. It's not about what other people think and it's not about how they want you to act, because they've deemed it appropriate.

Until you start violating the rights of others, than your morality is entirely up to you and how you chose to define it.

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Tenth, I am curious do you believe an afterlife is possible given your belief?

abeverage
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Tenth, I am curious do you believe an afterlife is possible given your belief?

The afterlife also does not require God

~Tenth

tothetenthpower
reply to post by halfoldman

 

I never understood why a lack of religion implied a lack of morality. Like instinctively we as human beings are some how immoral. This is a product of religion that teaches you that you aren't anything important or special, that you are born of SIN and must spend your life repenting for a chance at eternal happiness.

Great post, but I'm focusing on this paragraph at the moment, because currently "origins" is what a lot of the debate between atheists and Christians in the US seems to be about.

The fundamentalist (for lack of a better word) Christians say that evolution and communism, and hence somehow the whole of modern academia, teaches that humans come from "pond slime".

Atheists tend to say (or add) that religion says we are born into "Original Sin" (and hence, until we accept a Savior, we are lower than bat-pooh).

Either way, we don't seem to have a positive attitude to our species or origin.

I don't think you should lump spirituality in with religion when talking about negative aspects and abuse. There is an overlap between religion and spirituality but they are very different. When talking about Christianity, even Jesus railed against organized religion, in the bible he strongly admonishes various leaders of the Jewish temples for their corruption and rigid enforcement of rituals and rules, for greed and condemnation of people not following their idea of how God should be worshipped or approached. It would be ridiculous for me to claim what Jesus would think of the Christian faith (a faith created after his death), but based on what he says in the bible about the organized Jewish faith of the time, I think he would view a lot of the organized Christian faith today the same way.

Organized religion can certainly help people with their spirituality, but like all things.. power corrupts, and unfortunately religion today (and back then) gets in the way of and hinders spirituality. I haven't attended church in a long while for this reason, but still believe in the Judeo-Christian God.

Even all of this is irrelevant to spiritual health as a concept though. There are three aspects of overall human health: Physical, Mental, Spiritual. They influence each other greatly, and it's obviously ideal for all three to be healthy. Many people might find it silly, but the statistics and studies show that people who practice a faith seriously or are spiritual have much less rates of divorce, depression, are more likely to succeed in school and work..etc..

I would recommend anyone to explore spirituality, what you conceive as a higher power can be as abstract as nature or the universe itself.. anything you can gain support, comfort, or peace of mind from and feel connected to. Define your own God, or formless entity that you can pray to or derive strength from a relationship to.

(and this post isn't directed at the OP himself but really anyone)

I think it says.... "he who endureth til the end shall be saved". Quit dropping the ball dude, what other hope do you have? That some atheist will be able to explain away existence to you. Get real. Ya that sure will help a person sleep well at night having no hope at all. Even if you're a Christian life is going to be hard. It's designed to be hard, on everyone. That doesn't mean you give up your faith. It's on the one piece of information and insight that you have that actually is worth anything. Give that up and what do you got? Nothing. I think I've felt at times that God was either being too hard on me or wasn't listening at all, and maybe had forgotten about me. But I realized later that he maybe had to allow me to learn to tackle some problems on my own otherwise if he was always making life easy I'd never grow. But I think he's always there always watching and always listening to our prayers and our thoughts. But if you wanna go hang with the monkeys be my guest. lol ..Anyway that's my 2 cents