It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

page: 39
51
<< 36  37  38    40  41  42 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 08:44 AM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


As I read it, Jesus is speaking of a changed life in this chapter, witnessing to Nicodemus. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Since it is impossible to be born from your mother's womb again, He must be speaking of a spiritual re-birth, therefore your spiritual life.




posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 11:27 AM
link   
reply to post by colbe
 





There you go with the childish "forced" again. Faith is a choice, we all have free will.


Ah, good then. All this time I thought you were anti-choice, and anti free will. I'm so relieved to find that you are actually pro-choice after all!
And that you support free will, including the free choice to use contraception!
edit on 18-12-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 01:16 PM
link   

MOMof3
reply to post by Akragon
 


As I read it, Jesus is speaking of a changed life in this chapter, witnessing to Nicodemus. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Since it is impossible to be born from your mother's womb again, He must be speaking of a spiritual re-birth, therefore your spiritual life.


Not much of a God I guess eh

Yet your book says with God "all things are possible"

And lets not forget Job... perhaps you missed chapter 1

20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Time to break away from what you've been taught and read the book for yourself



Oh and before you bust out Hebrews 9:27 read the whole chapter... it does not refute reincarnation

Preprogramed Christian responses are so predictable
edit on 18-12-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 01:32 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


Yep, pretty simple isn't it? Job came of the womb naked and breathing, a living soul.



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 01:37 PM
link   
reply to post by MOMof3
 


And stated clear as day he will return there...

Being born again isn't something that happens in this life time... The meaning was changed by the early Fathers of the church...

As if they would let you have a second chance... or even know its possible

They'd lose all control if they let that bit of info slip out




posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 02:13 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


Hi Akragon!

I also think that reincarnation is VERY important to the abortion debate!

I have a hard time understanding how people can believe that a "soul", that is an eternal spiritual being, is created from, or arises from the "supposedly sinful" act of carnal sexual intercourse!


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.





posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 03:11 PM
link   

windword
reply to post by Akragon
 


Hi Akragon!

I also think that reincarnation is VERY important to the abortion debate!

I have a hard time understanding how people can believe that a "soul", that is an eternal spiritual being, is created from, or arises from the "supposedly sinful" act of carnal sexual intercourse!


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.




Let say for arguements sake the soul of a person is created within the womb... IF that person or soul is aborted before birth, what happens to it?

God never gives this soul a chance to learn and experience? Perhaps from a tyrants perspective... Which is exactly what the OT god is

Perhaps he just reuturns home? What was the point of coming in the first place if that is the case...

Its obvious that soul would incarnate at another point in time

Then again perhaps theres just tons of immature souls roaming heaven




posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 03:14 PM
link   
reply to post by MOMof3
 


The soul isnt really mentioned much in the bible, from what i've been told by a Jehovah's witness. They dont believe people have souls, in the sense most people mean.



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 05:00 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 





Let say for arguements sake the soul of a person is created within the womb... IF that person or soul is aborted before birth, what happens to it?

God never gives this soul a chance to learn and experience? Perhaps from a tyrants perspective... Which is exactly what the OT god is

Perhaps he just returns home? What was the point of coming in the first place if that is the case...

Its obvious that soul would incarnate at another point in time

Then again perhaps there's just tons of immature souls roaming heaven



If a brand new soul is created as a result of sexual intercourse and fertilization of the ova, then the soul is organic, and arises from the physical, not the spiritual. If the soul is organic, then it isn't eternal, and it dies with the physical, organic body.

There would be no "home" to return to.

If the soul is eternal, and pre-existed in heaven with God, then, in the event of an abortion, the soul would return home, if it had indeed embodied in the embryo. Or, it would remain in heaven, with God, until a suitable body was prepared.



In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.





posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 10:36 PM
link   

WilsonWilson
reply to post by colbe
 


Thanks, i loved the show my name came from!

i disagree, there are plenty of mothers who dont want the babies they find themselves pregnant with, i dont think that makes them a sociopath, that a very harsh view. is that what we call all the men that walk away from these pregnant mothers sociopaths?
I said in my post that pro life groups should do more to futher the research of Male contraception that would PREVENT fertilisation of the egg, and so remove any abortion element to the use of it.
God unfortunately does not provide, or we wouldnt have so many young children starving to death all over the world, so yes economics do come into it.


Wilson, Wilson,

I said, I asked whoever heard of a woman who HAD a baby not wanting it? Do you understand? I wasn't speaking of the people who do not want a child and find away to remove/kill a baby in the womb before it is born.

You have been brought up in this time accepting Contraception. The world now accepts contraception because sex is for selfish pleasure over it's real purpose, procreation. No way. Contraception is a grave SIN to God. Roman Catholicism stands ALONE proclaiming this in our time. This is a big hint to prove it is the faith, the one and only that Christ established.

Here, briefly, why Contraception is a grave SIN...


Blessings to you and thanks for discussing
,


colbe

_ _ _

Few realize that up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.

Evidence that contraception is in conflict with God’s laws comes from a variety of sources that will be examined in this tract.



Nature

Contraception is wrong because it’s a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation.



Scripture

Is contraception a modern invention? Hardly! Birth control has been around for millennia. Scrolls found in Egypt, dating to 1900 B.C., describe ancient methods of birth control that were later practiced in the Roman empire during the apostolic age. Wool that absorbed sperm, poisons that fumigated the uterus, potions, and other methods were used to prevent conception. In some centuries, even condoms were used (though made out of animal skin rather than latex).

The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one’s dead brother. "Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

The biblical penalty for not giving your brother’s widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). But Onan received death as punishment for his crime. This means his crime was more than simply not fulfilling the duty of a brother-in-law. He lost his life because he violated natural law, as Jewish and Christian commentators have always understood. For this reason, certain forms of contraception have historically been known as "Onanism," after the man who practiced it, just as homosexuality has historically been known as "Sodomy," after the men of Sodom, who practiced that vice (cf. Gen. 19).

Contraception was so far outside the biblical mindset and so obviously wrong that it did not need the frequent condemnations other sins did. Scripture condemns the practice when it mentions it. Once a moral principle has been established in the Bible, every possible application of it need not be mentioned. For example, the general principle that theft is wrong was clearly established in Scripture; but there’s no need to provide an exhaustive list of every kind of theft. Similarly, since the principle that contraception is wrong has been established by being condemned when it’s mentioned in the Bible, every particular form of contraception does not need to be dealt with in Scripture in order for us to see that it is condemned.



Apostolic Tradition

The biblical teaching that birth control is wrong is found even more explicitly among the Church Fathers, who recognized the biblical and natural law principles underlying the condemnation.

In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).

Hippolytus of Rome wrote in 255 that "on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful [certain Christian women who had affairs with male servants] want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered" (Refutation of All Heresies9:12).

Around 307 Lactantius explained that some "complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20).

The First Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical council and the one that defined Christ’s divinity, declared in 325, "If anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy" (Canon 1). ...

www.catholic.com...



posted on Dec, 18 2013 @ 10:45 PM
link   

windword
reply to post by colbe
 





There you go with the childish "forced" again. Faith is a choice, we all have free will.


Ah, good then. All this time I thought you were anti-choice, and anti free will. I'm so relieved to find that you are actually pro-choice after all!
And that you support free will, including the free choice to use contraception!
edit on 18-12-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)


Lamo comparison sister.

God gave humanity the gift of free will because He is like us, He wants our love to be true. Our free will choices are black and white, good vs evil. Choose for God. Ask His help to follow the good, to follow Him.

How come with your approval of abortion, you do not see that everyone must make an accounting for their free will choices before God? Abortion a grave mortal sin, this sin is serious, an "intrinsic evil."

I have inquired because I care, I pray it ISN'T because you yourself committed this grave sin? If you did, God loves you, repent and confess it now!!!!! God's greatest attribute is His mercy.



posted on Dec, 19 2013 @ 10:54 AM
link   
reply to post by colbe
 





Abortion a grave mortal sin, this sin is serious, an "intrinsic evil."


When did God change his mind about this? Because the God of Bible has no problem with the murder of pregnant women and the ripping of children from the wombs of the mothers of Israel's enemies. The God of the Bible has no problem with the murder of innocent children. And as we've already discussed in this thread, God actually commands and causes abortions to the women whose husbands are jealous.




God gave humanity the gift of free will because He is like us, He wants our love to be true. Our free will choices are black and white, good vs evil. Choose for God. Ask His help to follow the good, to follow Him.


This doesn't sound like a "gift" at all! It sounds like a sick game that your God plays, betting against his enemy, Satan, using our souls as poker chips. Needless to say, I don't believe in your God. I don't believe in a God that has unfulfilled wants and needs.

However, if you truly believe that your God gave us free will, then who are you, or anyone else, to interfere and tell us how to use our free will or that that free will choices are wrong? You either respect free will, or you don't. But, if you choose to disrespect free will, and try to take away one's ability to choose, and take away free will, then you are disrespecting your own God's plan, and the "gift bestowed on us all.



edit on 19-12-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2013 @ 11:14 AM
link   

windword
reply to post by colbe
 





Abortion a grave mortal sin, this sin is serious, an "intrinsic evil."


When did God change his mind about this? Because the God of Bible has no problem with the murder of pregnant women and the ripping of children from the wombs of the mothers of Israel's enemies. The God of the Bible has no problem with the murder of innocent children. And as we've already discussed in this thread, God actually commands and causes abortions to the women whose husbands are jealous.




God gave humanity the gift of free will because He is like us, He wants our love to be true. Our free will choices are black and white, good vs evil. Choose for God. Ask His help to follow the good, to follow Him.


This doesn't sound like a "gift at all! It sounds like a sick game that your God plays, betting against his enemy, Satan, using our souls as poker chips. Needless to say, I don't believe in your God. I don't believe in a God that has unfulfilled wants and needs.

However, if you truly believe that your God gave us free will, then who are you, or anyone else, to interfere and tell us how to use our free will or that that free will choices are wrong? You either respect free will, or you don't. But, if you choose to disrespect free will, and try to take away one's ability to choose, and take away free will, then you are disrespecting your own God's plan, and the "gift bestowed on us all.


Why don't you love God for loving you first, creating you windword instead of always accusing Him?

What happened to your free will comments in your last post to defend choosing abortion? Now you're
singing something else. Silly. Following the good, choosing for life doesn't take away your free will choice to do the opposite.

This is a thread about abortion, no one is "interfering" with your speaking out for abortion.



posted on Dec, 19 2013 @ 11:21 AM
link   
reply to post by colbe
 


Im pretty sure shes just stating a fact...

Here...


When did God change his mind about this? Because the God of Bible has no problem with the murder of pregnant women and the ripping of children from the wombs of the mothers of Israel's enemies.



that's one of those passages the church doesn't like to chat about...




posted on Dec, 19 2013 @ 11:34 AM
link   
reply to post by colbe
 





Why don't you love God for loving you first, creating you windword instead of always accusing Him?


I don't believe in your God. I don't believe that your God created me or that your God loves me.


What happened to your free will comments in your last post to defend choosing abortion? Now you're
singing something else. Silly. Following the good, choosing for life doesn't take away your free will choice to do the opposite.


I believe that choice and free will is sacred, more sacred than a potential life that contraception and abortion prevents. I don't believe in "black and white", "right and wrong" choices when it comes to self determinations and autonomy.


This is a thread about abortion, no one is "interfering" with your speaking out for abortion.


The Catholic Church and the religious right are making every effort to interfere with a woman's choice when it come to contraception and abortion. There is no question about it.

I'm speaking out against those who want to redefine what abortion is, and stop women from choosing when and if they become pregnant. I'm speaking out against those who want to force women to give birth to unwanted babies as a punishment for having sex. I'm speaking out against those who hold their religious beliefs as more important and above the autonomy of woman's choice.


edit on 19-12-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 19 2013 @ 11:58 AM
link   
reply to post by colbe
 





Following the good, choosing for life doesn't take away your free will choice to do the opposite.


How is bringing forth children in sorrow "good"?


16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee.



And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!


Here's what your church said about women, from the get go!


As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.
-- Thomas Aquinas, Saint, Doctor of the Church, 13th century

Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. ... Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good.
-- St. Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian and Doctor of the Church, 13th century

In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die... Woman, you are the gate to hell.
-- Tertullian, 2nd-3rd century Churchfather


In this "New Age" of self determinism, there is no longer any reason for women to submit to church authority or to remain victims to this biblical mindset of physical and emotional female punishment.



edit on 19-12-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 21 2013 @ 01:42 PM
link   
reply to post by MEPAnna
 


Dear Mep Anna, thank you for your comment. This is what we actually wanted to convey to the readers – that discussing such topic, we should put our emotions aside to be objective. However, you mentioned that we might pay more attention to “…special social/psychological programs which may help mothers to accept and raise their children in appropriate conditions”

Yes, that is true. We still have to take into account the awfulness of the situation and the hardness of a decision for a possible mother to have such an operation – she still has motherly instincts. Whatever the circumstances are she has to kill her child, her own creature. That is why, of course, the government has to do as much as possible to help mothers to raise their children. Suggesting that, we suppose only the cases of women who actually would like to have a child, but just are in despair because of poverty or the fear that they are lonely and won’t manage to bring up a child. There is no doubt, that such women need help, they need finance help as well as psychological one.

However, this only supports the idea of legalization of abortions. Making them legal the government has more opportunities to determine women who need help, and actually prevent abortions when they really and objectively are not so indispensable to life. Moreover it can lead statistics and correctly estimate the current situation to plan this or that concerned law or measure.



posted on Dec, 21 2013 @ 01:45 PM
link   
reply to post by tjk1253279
 


Good evening, tjk1253279!
To begin with, thank you for the comment. We appreciate your argument about that people should not have to pay taxes for things that they personally strongly do not support and even consider as abusive to their religious believes. However, though we do not want to abuse anyone’s feelings, our point is that government mainly should subsidize the social programs which aim is to help people to rethink about their decision by providing them with the support to bring up a child. So, actually, the programs’ essence is to prevent abortions in some cases. Moreover, your argument is mainly about people who cannot afford to do an abortion. But the fact is that people who decided that they want to have an abort are usually in despair and they will use any chances to get money for it (these can be not legal and moral ones) and would choose the cheapest offer to have an operation not thinking enough about the quality of an operation. This means, that they have a high risk to have unqualified and really dangerous operation. The consequences can be, as we mentioned, “anemia, chronic inflammation of the reproductive tract and even secondary infertility” or even the death. Moreover, according to facts, if abortion is illegal, the average price will be much higher. Hence, making it legal a government, not spending money of its tax-payers make the operation available for more people.



posted on Dec, 21 2013 @ 01:46 PM
link   
reply to post by MOMof3
 


Dear MomOf3, thank your comment. Your comment seems to be very reasonable and we agree with the point. Still, we would like to add something to it. We are speaking about legalizing abortions making them cheaper and safer, but we do not speaking about PROPAGANDIZING the abortion. Yes, there is statistics that proves, that the amount of abortions is much increased after making the operation legal, but these is all about the freedom of choice and not about the attempt to abuse significance of the problem from the religious point of view. If a person has such moral principles and believes that she cannot commit such a crime – to kill fetus, the legalization of abortions would not affect her. The legalization would only concern the women who in any case decides to have an operation. The argument would be that legalization increases the amount of the operations made. That is true, but think about the amount of killed because of unqualified operations women and moreover, about that unwanted children who were born but died in a very childhood. Isn’t awful too? We do not state that legalization is a panacea. But we have to get the world with all of its imperfectness and to choose chose the lesser of two evils. Of course, everyone would like that there were not any situations when the abort is needed. But these are only our dreams.



posted on Dec, 21 2013 @ 01:48 PM
link   
reply to post by cornflakes20
 


Thank you for the comment. Yes, that is a real point. There are situations when the necessity of abortions seems to be absolute, so it is clear, that such women must have a chance to so it. And do it legal and to be supposed a kind of criminal.



new topics

top topics



 
51
<< 36  37  38    40  41  42 >>

log in

join