I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

windword
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

 

Life begins at conception and ends at death. When you are living you exist (per definition).

Simple biology negates that. The ovum exists and is alive, the sperm exists and is alive.

Ovum and egg are not individual human beings complete with a full set of DNA, are they?

Skin cells are alive too, but they are not human beings.

reply to post by TheWrightWing

Skin cells are alive too, but they are not human beings.

That's right. And, a fertilized, single cell haploid ovum isn't an "human being" either.

windword
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

 

Life begins at conception and ends at death. When you are living you exist (per definition).

Simple biology negates that. The ovum exists and is alive, the sperm exists and is alive. Their meeting does NOT create life, it transforms it and the life, that already existed, EVOLVES into a "human being" over a period of time. The potential life of a human being begins at conception, but there is much that HAS to happen before a human being emerges from the womb.

I have no problem with this statement until you say "EVOLVES into a human being" over a period of time." It IS A HUMAN BEING FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION.

You ask earlier about my beliefs on embryonic stem cell research. "Use things and not people.'

Adult Stem Cell Treatments Move Ahead, Embryonic Stem Cells Fall Farther Behind

Embryonic stem cells continue to receive the majority of news coverage, yet remain the least likely stem cell to help patients. In fact, even the embryonic stem cell advocates are beginning to admit failure.

reply to post by colbe


Thanks for sharing, coble. It is nice to see somehow around here who is aware of the reality of demons. Your story was very interesting. I never heard it before. Don't worry about my shortage of crucifixes. My favorite is the beautiful St. Benedict crucifix. If you didn't know about it and the Saint Benedict medal, both are used for protection from demonic attack.


THE SAINT BENEDICT CROSS / CRUCIFIX

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

It IS A HUMAN BEING FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION.

THIS IS YOUR OPINION.

windword
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

 

It IS A HUMAN BEING FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION.

THIS IS YOUR OPINION.

My opinion is also a fact.

I hope you take 3 minutes and read the credentials and words of the Doctors who shared this belief/opinion/fact at senate hearing and other experts not in attendance.

Scientists Attest To Life Beginning At Conception

A prominent physician points out that at these Senate hearings, “Pro-abortionists, though invited to do so, failed to produce even a single expert witness who would specifically testify that life begins at any point other than conception or implantation.

Hey, if this doctor can call it a fact. I feel that I am not out of line doing the same:

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.”

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


There have been doctors testify at these hearing who have been known to have lied. Fetal pain is a good example. Another good example of lying doctors are those who assert that "Life begins at conception" is a fact.

The fact is that life doesn't "begin" at all. Life is transformed, and it metamorphs or evolves from egg, to zygote, to embryo, to fetus, to baby.

reply to post by windword



Show me some doctors who put their reputation on the line and agree with your opinion.
Hope they aren't all abortionists.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

More simply, one can see that the idea that life begins at fertilization can’t predate the discovery of fertilization (1840s) and the genetic part of the argument can’t predate 1915. So this claim can not be the basis for a longstanding religious opposition to abortion.

In short, the idea that life begins at fertilization is a modern idea. The idea that the “final genetic constitution” of the individual is set at sperm entry is false. The genetic details are complex. You can find them in the appendix at the end of this section.

So, when does life begin? To a scientist, the only possible answer to that question is:
~3.5 Billion years ago when the first cells appeared.

BIOLOGY OF ABORTION: Open Yale Courses



Your claim is dismissed within the first 5 minutes.

windword
reply to post by TheWrightWing

 

Skin cells are alive too, but they are not human beings.

That's right. And, a fertilized, single cell haploid ovum isn't an "human being" either.

Your opinion, which basic biology refutes.

The human life cycle begins at conception.

Abortion kills that living human being.

windword
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

 

The fact is that life doesn't "begin" at all. Life is transformed, and it metamorphs or evolves from egg, to zygote, to embryo, to fetus, to baby.

edit on 9-12-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Zygote, embryo, fetus.

Those are not species, they are stages of life. As in a living being, in a human's case, a living human being.

Which are killed by abortion.

reply to post by TheWrightWing

The human life cycle begins at conception.

The human life cycle begins way before conception.

Abortion kills that living human being.

You have to have a pregnancy to have an abortion. Fertilization does NOT equate pregnancy.

Zygote, embryo, fetus.

Those are not species, they are stages of life. As in a living being, in a human's case, a living human being.

These are stages of human evolution from egg and sperm, to a living, breathing human being.

Which are killed by abortion.

In your world, hundreds of thousands of human beings are being naturally aborted monthly by sexually active women who fail to get pregnant! Every sexually active woman using hormonal contraception or an IUD is murdering a person, possible every month!

Just think of all the women walking around around where you work, on the subway, ringing up your groceries or handing you your cash at the bank, all on their periods, all having an abortion, right in front of you!

Oh, the humanity!

reply to post by windword

In your world, hundreds of thousands of human beings are being naturally aborted monthly by sexually active women who fail to get pregnant! Every sexually active woman using hormonal contraception or an IUD is murdering a person, possible every month! Just think of all the women walking around around where you work, on the subway, ringing up your groceries or handing you your cash at the bank, all on their periods, all having an abortion, right in front of you!

Oh, you are way too much. By the logic your evolution of the human being hypothesis this is the case.

I don't know a soul on the planet that considers an egg or a sperm to be a human being. Women release an egg a month, I won't even venture a guess on the sperms that are suicided by a man in a month. Oh, the tragedy of it all.

reply to post by windword


So much ignorance in a single post.

By human life cycle, science refers to the individual human being, not the entire species as a whole.

Sperm are not human beings, again, to believe what you do, you must accept things that are not true.

When you have conceived, you have a pregnancy. I find it interesting how little pro abortion advocates know about basic human biology.

Stages of a human life is not 'evolution'.

I notice how pro abortions types will use every bit of desperate ignorance to make their dodgy points.

Does it not worry you that to assert your point of view you must knowingly, and with deliberate purpose, parrot easily refuted falsehood?

Human life begins at conception. Abortion kills that living human.

There are some people who think an adult human isn't really human unless they are part of their group and have absolutely no concerns with killing those not in their group.

So is the point of contention REALLY about at what point a person is human?

No.

It is about at what point each person is comfortable with the deliberate cessation of a life in progress.

There will never be a "right" answer, for all can think of times when ending a life is something they support, times where it is something they won't.

But to continue lying to ourselves and pretending it's about finding a "line" where they are human is absurd. That's only ever opinion. There can be no "scientific conclusion" on at what point a human is a human.

There is one question that can really be asked to answer the question of "IS IT HUMAN?"

If *we* don't interfere... what is the outcome?

Whether it's a fertilized egg... an unfamiliar racial type... a murderer... an ill and suffering patient... the outcome is human. Finding a point in time to cut it off is as arbitrary as drinking age limits.

We may call them seeds, but we full know when we plant them it is the start of an entire life called "tree".

A life is not defined by a single moment.

I prefer a culture that works very hard to ensure females are only getting pregnant and consenting to sexual relations where a child is possible when they actually intend to carry it. But that's not the world we are in... those are not my bodies... the decisions are not mine to carry... and I can't speak for all people in all circumstances.

There are times I will support a death. There are times I will not. I will never claim they are founded in anything except my opinion based on the information.

Trying to prove a zygote, etc. is human is foolish.
Trying to pretend DELIBERATELY terminating a pregnancy isn't terminating a human is also foolish.

It is very clearly terminating a human life.

The only question a person has to answer... and this is true of every decision of course but these in particular... is "Is it worth it?"

windword
These are stages of human evolution from egg and sperm, to a living, breathing human being.

Your stance is equivalent to saying that a paint stroke doesn't start when the first bristle hits.

Healthy humans walk on two legs.
Until you are walking on two legs, you aren't developed enough for me to call you human.

Developed healthy humans don't wear diapers.
Until you don't need diapers, you aren't developed enough for me to call you human.

Healthy humans communicate.
Until you can communicate with me, you aren't developed enough for me to call you human.

Healthy humans grow wrinkles.
If you don't have wrinkles, you aren't developed enough for me to call you human.

Healthy humans have heartbeats.
If you have no heartbeat, why revive? No longer human.

Healthy humans die.
If you haven't died yet, you aren't developed enough for me to call you human.

At what point is the mind ready to be called human as opposed to "prep-work" for the "real" human mind?

We're just chasing our own tales... I mean tails.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


No one here is asserting that a fertilized egg isn't a human Zygote.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

Fertilized eggs take between six to 12 days to implant in the uterine lining. There simply is no pregnancy until this happens, which is why any method that prevents fertilization or implantation can not cause an abortion. A large share of fertilized eggs never successfully implant to establish a pregnancy: Between 50 and 80 percent of fertilized eggs never successfully implant and end in spontaneous miscarriage (and before a woman even knows she is pregnant) because of insufficient hormone levels or an non-viable egg or for some other reason.
rhrealitycheck.org...

Between 50 and 80 percent of the time, a sexually active women will be flushing a fertilized egg with her period.

reply to post by TheWrightWing

When you have conceived, you have a pregnancy.

No, you have a the beginning of a potential pregnancy and a potential human being. The American Medical Association and The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists define implantation as the beginning of pregnancy.

I find it interesting how little pro abortion advocates know about basic human biology. Stages of a human life is not 'evolution'.

A fertilized egg is NOT a person. A zygote will, given the right circumstances, EVOLVE into a realized, autonomous human being.

Simple biological cell division, implantation and actual pregnancy, and personhood are all very different things.

Human life begins at conception. Abortion kills that living human.

Sigh, no one is denying that egg, sperm and zygote are living organisms and human. But a zygote is a not a person and an abortion can't happen until there is a pregnancy. Pregnancy begins at implantation. Birth control, that expels a fertilize egg before implantation is not the same thing, in scientific medical terms, as an abortion.

Does it not worry you that to assert your point of view you must knowingly, and with deliberate purpose, parrot easily refuted falsehood?

Actually, the obvious desperation, intellectual dishonesty, falsehoods and shameless lies come from the anti-choice, forced birth, so called, pro-life community.

reply to post by BardingTheBard

I prefer a culture that works very hard to ensure females are only getting pregnant and consenting to sexual relations where a child is possible when they actually intend to carry it.

'Nough said! I got your number.

windword

I prefer a culture that works very hard to ensure females are only getting pregnant and consenting to sexual relations where a child is possible when they actually intend to carry it.

'Nough said! I got your number.

I'm sure you think you do.

Two people meet. Prior to having sex they discuss nothing of children, abortion, or anything else. No agreements or understandings have been reached.

When the man does this and a pregnancy results and does not want to support the child... demonized and legally bound.

When the woman does this and a pregnancy results... options! Freedom!

Mind you... I support people's right to an abortion. I also support the right to suicide, wasting away on drugs, etc. That is not to compare to two, but to paint what the nature of supporting people's rights mean to me.

I'm just not going to pretend like the current social approach to it isn't highly hypocritical. Gentle toward calling out the irresponsibility by women while shouting about the irresponsibility of men. For identical behavior but completely opposite repercussions.

I've got someone's number too... yours is one digit.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


Oh okay, this is about unfair it is that women demonize dead beat dads, but can go get get an abortion whenever they feel like it. So, life is unfair.

I've got someone's number too... yours is one digit.

Hmm. Yours is zero. Zero is neither negative nor positive. It's zero.