I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

reply to post by thesaneone

Thank you, thesaneone. I applaud your perception.

Edited because I believe I might have been getting too personal about XXX777 to comply with the Terms and Conditions.

charles1952
reply to post by tetra50

 

Dear tetra50,

And your reply has saddened me. I had forgotten an important part of this discussion, and you have brought it forward.

For you see, as women, we cannot have sexual realtions without this being a probable consequence of the act of "love." No matter what we do, for there is no fool proof method of birth control, while we are inundated as women and the populus at large, with sexual relations, romantic love and this being a measure of our "normalcy." So, this being the case, there is no other way to live, nor be......

Women are so precious, so valuable. The feminine is the soul to the muscles of the masculine. They are art, beauty, poetry, love, music, and so much more.

I can't find it in my heart to accept what the culture is doing to women. Burying women under images of Victoria's Secret, dozens of magazines with a headline each month on "How to Please Your Man in Bed," the music which tells women that their highest aspiration is to be a "ho." None of that is "normal."

It reminds me a little of children who play realistic shooting games twelve hours a day, then we're surprised when they're not polite and respectful.

Women are made for true Love. When they're constantly being told that true Love is abnormal and sick, how in the world do they stay true? I've heard it said that women want love and men want sex. In the past, men weren't allowed to have their sex and run. Their reputations would be ruined, they might be beat up or killed. Now, it's "If you don't go to bed on the first date, there's something wrong with you."

That is an ugly sickness.

With respect,
Charles1952

Yes it is, Charles1952. We, women, are just looking for someone to love and appreciate us for our life giving and quantitatively loviing ability.....really. I am crying, for it is so far away from where we are, now. And some of us have looked our whole lives for this.....understanding. And we are so far from that now, and it has nothing, whatsoever, to do with who, we really are.....

Just my personal thing: I loved my children, more than anything.....and would have done anything for them....

The reality is far from what we can describe right now, and yet, some of us rest on this truth forever....

XXX777
reply to post by charles1952

 

The baby absolutely is a part of the mother. It is not a tapeworm. It is more like a toe nail. She can trim her toe nails. Girls get sunburned and parts of their skin die and fall off. They cut their hair. They get rid of all sorts of things they no longer need.

In fact, I actually believe in post-birth abortion. I believe a mother should be able to destroy her child at any time. Who are you to deny the creator? God told Abraham to kill his son. God killed his own Son! People send their kids to die in wars. People MUST destroy. Otherwise we would be destroyed.

And you were doing so well till you said that 'God killed His own Son'...
...I am pretty sure it was Romans at the request of Jewish leaders who killed Jesus.

Somethings I want to put of there for reflection.

Parents help your children learn by your mistakes. They need your wisdom to help them to be their personal best.

Many years ago a guy friend of mine told me that in the high school locker room boys would tell the other guys exactly what to say to a girl to get inside her pants. That was over 40 years ago and my son tells me it is still happening.

My son said the jocks were even making bets on who could do it first with this sweet, beautiful girl. I hope she never finds out about that.

Some woman made a thread about how she was empowered by her sexuality. Karma and time can bite you in the rear, honey.

My sister's friend knew a girl whose hobby was seducing priests, so you see I know it isn't just men who play games.

It's sad when there is some truth in the old joke: "The definition of a virgin is an ugly 4th grader."

It get hard to respect yourself when you feel you've been used for sex. How does it feel using someone and lying to them about how you feel? Does it matter at all or did compassion fly out the window?

It may seem like I am straying from the topic, but I'm not. Women get pregnant and daddy hits the road or in the opening post here kills the baby she is carrying. It seems we have lost the sense of responsibilty we have for each other.

OK, I am the lady you might see picking up worms headed down to the storm drain after a rain storm because I think they got a bad deal. I cry when my pet fish die. Silly me, I think life is precious and I love deeply.

Just want everyone on this thread to know I appreciate your sharing what you have. We may be miles apart in our thinking. I don't see myself as any better of any worse than you.

As far as abortion discussion goes this has been a fairly decent post. I appreciate that. Guess we ought to thank one of the most civii posters on ATS (Charles)for steering it that way and it is awesome to see calm heads prevail. Hope I'm not talking about just my head.

I am tired and much of what has been shared I need to look closer at, and I will. I really do hope these painful procedures have been made illegal. Yet my thoughts on the sanctity of all life won't be moved.

It would be a dull world if we all thought same way.
It would be an awesome world if we all loved each other.

Let this be you

reply to post by charles1952




You state :- 'But "coat hangers" show up in every abortion discussion I've seen'


"Coat hangers" being a euphemism for *knitting needles, *crochet hooks, or any other household
item that could primitively mimic a 'surgical instrument'
But more often than not it was the septicaemia that resulted in death.

Hmmm...31 pages, I would like to add another verse from Scripture to help those who state a baby
in the womb is not a baby, yes they are a human person created by God.

Luke 1:43-44: “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy."

Elizabeth called Mary "the mother" while Jesus was still in the womb. John the Baptist, while still a "fetus", leapt in Elizabeth's womb for joy, which proves that the unborn can feel emotions, a very human thing indeed. The unborn are therefore not something, but rather, somebody.

charles1952

Women are made for true Love. When they're constantly being told that true Love is abnormal and sick, how in the world do they stay true? I've heard it said that women want love and men want sex. In the past, men weren't allowed to have their sex and run. Their reputations would be ruined, they might be beat up or killed. Now, it's "If you don't go to bed on the first date, there's something wrong with you."

That is an ugly sickness.

With respect,
Charles1952

Just what fantasy land have you lived in? There is nothing new going on now that didn't go on a hundred years ago. The only difference is that now it isn't hidden in a locked closet and out for the world to see. Who made you an authority on what women are made for and what they want? You do not know me, you do not know what goes on in my head. Sometimes I look at a man and want love sometimes I just want sex. That is reality this "true love" you talk about is a fantasy largely perpetuated by Disney and Hollywood to make money. When I was 13 my dad took me out of town for the weekend for the express purpose of explaining how attraction works, and how young boys would try to use my natural emotional and chemical responses against me. I choose my mates they do not choose or manipulate me.

Charles, check you messages. Good news.
From despair to hope.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


That's one of the best posts I've ever read. Thank you for saying all that. This is a multi faceted problem, and you've alluded to the depth of it very well, here, imo.

Our views and actions regarding sexuality are a huge part of this issue.
Tetra50

reply to post by tetra50


Thank you, Tetra.
You made my day.

KeliOnyx

charles1952

Women are made for true Love. When they're constantly being told that true Love is abnormal and sick, how in the world do they stay true? I've heard it said that women want love and men want sex. In the past, men weren't allowed to have their sex and run. Their reputations would be ruined, they might be beat up or killed. Now, it's "If you don't go to bed on the first date, there's something wrong with you."

That is an ugly sickness.

With respect,
Charles1952

Just what fantasy land have you lived in? There is nothing new going on now that didn't go on a hundred years ago. The only difference is that now it isn't hidden in a locked closet and out for the world to see. Who made you an authority on what women are made for and what they want? You do not know me, you do not know what goes on in my head. Sometimes I look at a man and want love sometimes I just want sex. That is reality this "true love" you talk about is a fantasy largely perpetuated by Disney and Hollywood to make money. When I was 13 my dad took me out of town for the weekend for the express purpose of explaining how attraction works, and how young boys would try to use my natural emotional and chemical responses against me. I choose my mates they do not choose or manipulate me.

We (men and woman) are all made for true love. Glad your Dad helped you to keep from getting burned, honestly. One thought I had was if you choose your mates and they don't choose you then they aren't your mates. If by mates you mean sex partners and love isn't part of the equation. IMHO sex aint worth spit if you don't feel love for your partner and you've missed the best sex one could ever have. I have to wonder if your mates aren't choosing are you are you using them? Sounds like the pot called the kettle black or having a double standard. You bashed a gentle soul. Did I do the same? If so, take it as constructive critcism.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


The people who are pro abortion are already born.
The people who were pro slavery were already free.
That is how oppression works.

KeliOnyx

charles1952

Women are made for true Love. When they're constantly being told that true Love is abnormal and sick, how in the world do they stay true? I've heard it said that women want love and men want sex. In the past, men weren't allowed to have their sex and run. Their reputations would be ruined, they might be beat up or killed. Now, it's "If you don't go to bed on the first date, there's something wrong with you."

That is an ugly sickness.

With respect,
Charles1952

Just what fantasy land have you lived in? There is nothing new going on now that didn't go on a hundred years ago. The only difference is that now it isn't hidden in a locked closet and out for the world to see. Who made you an authority on what women are made for and what they want? You do not know me, you do not know what goes on in my head. Sometimes I look at a man and want love sometimes I just want sex. That is reality this "true love" you talk about is a fantasy largely perpetuated by Disney and Hollywood to make money. When I was 13 my dad took me out of town for the weekend for the express purpose of explaining how attraction works, and how young boys would try to use my natural emotional and chemical responses against me. I choose my mates they do not choose or manipulate me.

Ah Keli,
I can guarantee that true love is not a fantacy.
When I was in seventh grade I went to a school dance and knew that one day I would marry the girl I went with.
We were young and of course our childhood relationship didn't last much longer after that dance..........yet that feeling never left me.
And time went by.
We went our separate ways, had different friends but she was always in the back of my mind.
I was considered a kind of "bad boy" in those days because of the people I kept company with.
A buddy and I were on our way to my house when she passed us going the other way.
Something overcame me and I asked him to turn around. We flagged her down and I asked her out.
To make a long story short........
We dated for 3 years. As of Sept. 10TH we have been married for 20 years. We have 3 beautiful children, all young men now.
She is my everything and I honestly believe that I am hers. I still open doors for her, wait for her to be seated before sitting, all the things that you probably think of as fantacy.
True love really does exist and I truly hope that one day you will find it or it will find you.

She is my best friend, my lover and my world.
The only regrets either of us have is that we were not each others "first".
Quad

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


Where to start on this. It is no secret we have nothing but contempt for one another, yet I don't totally disagree with you here. First no I am no sleep around Sally, the simple fact is my relationship status is a bit bizarre. The man I am with is the man I was once married to and after 13 years I couldn't be happier. But is it "true love"? No I wouldn't use those fictional words to describe it. We both truly love and respect each other and put a great deal of effort into our relationship. But there is no special magic going on there that gets us through difficult times other than us and our commitment to do so.

When I say I choose my mates they don't choose me. I am referring to the fact that I do not let men use my natural involuntary responses against me. I am well aware of my emotional states when dealing with men and how they work. So back when I was dating, when I was approached I was not prone to getting caught up in the moment. It left me free to date men that were going to be stable and not just trying to get between my legs. I understand that if I have intimate conversations with other men besides my guy, we will become attracted to one another.

The entirety of my issue with what Charles has said, is that women do in fact have the same desires as men. Always have and always will. Sometimes you see a guy and just want sex, that is reality. And this seems to be a trend among older men who yearn for days that never existed. Women are not and never have been mystical creatures that never think about attractiveness and sex until some "prince" comes along.

reply to post by KeliOnyx

Dear KeliOnyx,

Though you were responding to someone else, I've been thinking about what you said and it deserves some comment from me.

But is it "true love"? No I wouldn't use those fictional words to describe it. We both truly love and respect each other and put a great deal of effort into our relationship. But there is no special magic going on there that gets us through difficult times other than us and our commitment to do so.

Isn't that pretty much what true love is? I'm not talking about infatuation or lust, maybe I'm just getting snarled in words.

The entirety of my issue with what Charles has said, is that women do in fact have the same desires as men. Always have and always will. Sometimes you see a guy and just want sex, that is reality.

Of course, women do. if they didn't, I can't see how we'd ever have children. I expect that kind of feeling in women.

Women are not and never have been mystical creatures that never think about attractiveness and sex until some "prince" comes along.

I never suspected that for a moment. Of course they think about attractiveness. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that cave women put flowers in their hair.

I am well aware of my emotional states when dealing with men and how they work. So back when I was dating, when I was approached I was not prone to getting caught up in the moment.

Compare that to men who are dating. During a certain period in their lives, men are hoping to get caught up in the moment, they are not, shall we say, terribly selective.

You were not caught up. In some circumstances, you might have been seen as aloof, or formal, or dignified, or untouchable, or something. And that something, separates men from women.

This is hard to explain. I'm not looking for women to control a guy's desire or use it as a plaything, but to say, perhaps by her demeanor "You will not be an animal around me. We will talk, share some experiences, I will get to know what kind of person you are. I will control my emotions and you will control yours, or you will leave."

I hope this makes a little more sense than the other things I wrote.

With respect,
Charles1952

You'll never be able to have a logical discussion about one group trying to control another groups life choices.

Abortion is a private and personal decision that can only be made by the person who will or will not have the abortion.

reply to post by Sookiechacha

Dear Sookiechacha (fascinating name),

I think you may be overgeneralizing in the interest of brevity. I have trouble with brevity myself, so maybe I'm just jealous.

You'll never be able to have a logical discussion about one group trying to control another groups life choices.

Depending what you mean by "life choices," we are controlled in many of our actions every day.

Shopkeepers may not discriminate, we may not legally marry our sister, we may not use certain substances, own certain weapons, drive certain speeds, camp in city parks, etc., etc., etc.

Abortion is a private and personal decision that can only be made by the person who will or will not have the abortion.

I can understand that position, but surely, it's just a conclusion, and not an argument. For those who believe that another life is involved, it's not so private and personal.

I'm glad to meet you, and hope to hear more from you.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Sookie and Cha Cha are my cats names. Well, Cha Cha's name is really Charles, teehee, but he's way to silly to carry his name, so Cha Cha is what sticks.

Shop keepers and their employees will find polite ways to discriminate. It used to be illegal for a white man and black women to marry, but that didn't stop them from having sex. You can outlaw something, to make you feel powerful and in control, but you can't stop people from doing them anyway.

eletheia

HairlessApe
I think the parents should have the right to choose, within a reasonable timeframe, whether or not they want to have an abortion. I think ultimately it should be the woman's choice, but the father should also have his opinion heard and seriously considered.

I know, I'm the worst kind of person.

Hmmmnn...... I see all these posts of the lack of Fathers rights, and the Father taking an interest in
the life to be. But realistically how many Fathers are around when a woman has an abortion?


I'd like to know the statics of how many men are still with the pregnant woman when she goes for an abortion? Mostly if they are still together they would both be making that kind of decision together?


In the OP it was the "Father to be" who exercised his rights without the consent
of the Mother to be to procure an abortion ... makes me wonder about the sincerity of
all the bleeding heart Fathers to be crying over not being consulted!!

I think that's a pretty nasty generalization about men. And I think it's ignorant.

I would not abandon a woman who I had gotten pregnant if she chose to get an abortion. I think that's something a religious person might do, but not a human being with a natural worldview.

reply to post by HairlessApe




Well if the 'truth' is a 'nasty generalisation' ... so be it!

I know of quite a few single parents ... and would you believe it they are

all mothers!! Where do you recon the fathers are? Some (a few) are shared

parenting, the others have simply 'disappeared'


I think a 'religious person' (unless they were a hypocrite) would:-

# Likely save sex till after they were married

# Stick around so the female would most likely not abort

# Be there regardless, for his progeny

Doing anything else would make them a 'hypocrite' ....