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I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

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posted on Sep, 20 2013 @ 04:56 AM
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charles1952
You say that pregnancy due to rape should be a reason to justify abortion. You also say that "accidental" pregnancy should not be a reason for abortion, there, adoption is the option. I wonder why rape pregnancies should not be treated the same as accidental abortions. Yes, the mother had no choice in the rape situation, but is that sufficient reason to bump off the kid? Certainly the rapist, state, adoptive parents, or some combination thereof could cover the financial costs. Does abortion relieve the mother's psychological pain of being raped?


I had a friend some years back in that situation. A young, single girl, raped. She got pregnant. She kept the baby. This was a beautiful little girl, very sweet, and very loved. The mother stated simply that she didn't believe punishing a child for the crime of the father was right.


charles1952
I also wonder about abortion in the case of "Pregnant with detectable defect." My difficulty is in the definition and fear of the old "slippery slope." I have a family member with a Down Syndrome child, they chose not to abort. In China, being a female is probably a detectable defect. Even in the Western world there are some reports of abortion for sex selection. Would color blindness qualify? Abortion for a child with one deformed hand? Or does it have to be a defect which will kill the child in a year?


It is also a fact that the tests for these things are often incorrect. There are parents that were told, after amnio, that the baby would be "defective", and abortion was recommended. They refused, and had perfectly healthy children, with NO issues. Even a child with issues is still a human being, too. I have a nephew that has "issues". Serious autism, though he's far more affectionate than most. He is VERY loved, and a real blessing. And, yes, there is that business of what exactly is a "defect", too.

So far in this thread, I think I have agreed with everything you have said. I am a REAL woman, too, for those curious. A mother of five, grandmother of three. So, I don't want comments telling me that my opinion isn't valid, from anyone. The men have every right to comment as well. making a baby takes two.




posted on Sep, 20 2013 @ 07:17 AM
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reply to post by LadyGreenEyes
 





I had a friend some years back in that situation. A young, single girl, raped. She got pregnant. She kept the baby. This was a beautiful little girl, very sweet, and very loved. The mother stated simply that she didn't believe punishing a child for the crime of the father was right.


I hope that this young, single mother and rape survivor doesn't live in a state that give parental rights to her rapist.



It is also a fact that the tests for these things are often incorrect. There are parents that were told, after amnio, that the baby would be "defective", and abortion was recommended. They refused, and had perfectly healthy children, with NO issues.


I seriously doubt that it's a "fact" that medical tests are "often" incorrect. What source, besides one second hand story, verifies you claim? Are you encouraging mother's to be to ignore their doctor's findings?

If a couple is given news that their fetus has a severe medical issue, that will certainly result in a short life filled with unthinkable pain and misery, not to mention certain financial hardship, in your opinion, should they have a right to choose to terminate that pregnancy?

What if the doctor's findings confirm that this fetus poses severe risk to the mother's health? In your opinion, should they have the right to choose to terminate that pregnancy?



posted on Sep, 20 2013 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Regarding your statements: "I seriously doubt that it's a "fact" that medical tests are "often" incorrect. What source, besides one second hand story, verifies you claim? Are you encouraging mother's to be to ignore their doctor's findings? "

I can assure you doctors make mistakes, in this area as well as any other. I read stories on my FB feed from LifeNews.com and it very common to hear stories of people who were told bad information about their child's health, opted to ignore it and dellivered healthy babies.

Fears hundreds of healthy babies are being aborted every year simply because of scan blunders
www.dailymail.co.uk...


Tim Tebow's life, case in point:
Doctors Recommended Football Star Tim Tebow Be Aborted
www.lifenews.com...




edit on 9/20/2013 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2013 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


I'm not saying that mistakes never happen. But I doubt that it's a "fact that often" is true. Doctors wouldn't admit that, in the first place, so.... A few stories on the internet don't make your statement a fact.

Doctors rely on laboratories to test samples of blood, urine, amniotic fluids, etc. I don't think it's responsible to instill a sense of distrust in the relationship between a pregnant woman and her doctor. Get a second opinion, do another round of tests, sure, before making hard decisions. But don't blow off your doctor's findings.

You haven't answered my question. Do you think that a couple should be able to terminate a pregnancy if they find that their fetus has a severe disorder that will cause a short life of pain and misery for all, and financial failure, to boot? What about if the mother's health is a stake?



posted on Sep, 20 2013 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Yes, I agree to get a second opinon.

Your question about the heartbreaking news that your child has a severe birth defect that causes hardship is one people will have to struggle with and make the decision that they will have to live with and who am I to judge anyone who knows their limits and have to live with a painful choice.

I do not consider Downs Syndrome a reason to abort. These babies are getting adopted by others with the ability to patiently love and care for them.

Sex selection? Sorry I think that is wrong.

In vitro fertiization where mutiple fetuses may cause premature birth, endangerment of the mother's life also are painful choices, but as I said earlier people have to make choices and live with them. Life isn't always fair.

You are reading the words of a retired social worker who worked with pregnant women for three years and did adoption home studies. I worked for a Catholic agency that serves women who keep their babies and women who gave them up for adoption and I also worked at a maternity home. I went to a Catholic University and was the only student in the MSW program that was pro-life. I've listened to people like Norma McCorvey, aka Jane Roe who is now a pro-Life speaker and former abortion doctors who are also pro-life. I have talked to women who had abortions and felt they were exploited and given bad information. I wonder how many times Planned Parenthood workers said "Oh, it is only a clump of cells." I have heard that repeated over and over again.

I imagine they have changed their tune on that in these days.

I never met one woman that said I wish I had an abortion.

My 2 cents.



posted on Sep, 20 2013 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by windword
 




I'm not saying that mistakes never happen. But I doubt that it's a "fact that often" is true. Doctors wouldn't admit that, in the first place, so.... A few stories on the internet don't make your statement a fact. 

On the first page or two I linked a poem about my mother's choice to keep me, regardless of "Doctor's orders".
I think they may be mistaken more than we know. As you said "Doctors wouldn't admit that in the first place".
Add that to the fact that dead babies tell no tales and there is no telling how many are murdered for nothing.



posted on Sep, 20 2013 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 
I whole heartedly agree with your post.
What if women had to get a 3D ultrasound before an abortion, do you think that help change their views?
It would not impede on their right to choose but it might help them see their baby in a different way.
Quad



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 


Very good point. I never had an ultra sound, but I can tell you what a thrill it was when the doctor let me listen to my son's heartbeat with his stethoscope.

A thought I had on imperfections which I think is relavant to this discussion is that we are all imperfect. Some more than others, obviously.

Saint Catherine of Aragon was a rare breed. Some Saints had the gift to communicate with Jesus or His Mother, but Catherine was able to talk to God the Father. She asked Him: "Why did you make us all imperfect, instead of perfect like you?" His response was: "So you would need each other."

Godspeed, Quad.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 11:53 AM
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What a woman does with her own body is her business. Now I would rather they have the baby then give it up for adoption.

So for all those people screaming at those mothers saying that they cant have it, they should be told WHEN to have kids, and see how they like it. Or even told they cant.

So theres the trade off, you tell them to have em, they tell you not to. Lets see how well that works when the tables are turned.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by Tylerdurden1
 


What she does to her own body is her business. The problem lies in the fact that a baby has a body as well.

Edited to add:

I truly admire any woman who can't handle the responsibilities of raising a child and places them for adoption. They not only gave their child the gift of life, they gave the greatest gift to others who could not conceive.

I think the lack of love for the life a woman carries is a prime motivation for choosing abortion.
I saw that the women I worked with who gave up their babies for adoption loved them greatly. It is a tremendous sacrifice.

I cringe when I hear: "I could never give up my child that is why I had an abortion." Easier to destroy your child????

Some people who don't understand why Christian's are so passionate over this issue. They don't realize that the faith professes that man is made in the image and like of God.

No one should ever condemn or scream at anyone leaving an abortion clinic. That is verbal assault and they should be charged with such for it is a crime.

No woman silently praying outside an abortion clinic should have a cop knock the rosary out of her hand either.


edit on 9/21/2013 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


The second the baby says "Hey dont kill me I want to live" is the second I will change my stance on the subject. It cant though, because it doesnt know whats going on and wont feel anything!

Cheers.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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Tylerdurden1
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


The second the baby says "Hey dont kill me I want to live" is the second I will change my stance on the subject. It cant though, because it doesnt know whats going on and wont feel anything!

Cheers.


Ronald Reagan said something to the effect: "I have noticed that everybody who supports abortion has already been born."

Won't feel anything? Please look at this.
FETAL PAIN: THE EVIDENCE
www.doctorsonfetalpain.com...

Partial Birth abortions are excuciatingly painful. I listened to an ex-abortionist describe the procedure in a lecture. The same doctor provided the same testimony on PBA in a congressional hearing. It was video taped, probably banned from youtube. Someone please prove me wrong. Sorry I do not remember his name.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 01:24 PM
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Tylerdurden1
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


The second the baby says "Hey dont kill me I want to live" is the second I will change my stance on the subject. It cant though, because it doesnt know whats going on and wont feel anything!

Cheers.


Well, maybe you will get their opinion in the next life, eh?



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


The next life? The after life or rencarnation?



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 02:14 PM
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Dr. Levatino testimony on 2nd tri-mester abortion procedureWell, duh. The reason I couldn't find the Dr. Levatino congressional testimony was that I incorrectly thought is was about partial-birth. My bad memory, please excuse. His testimony is about the procedure used in 2nd tri-mester abortions. Hope you can watch in to the end.





edit on 9/21/2013 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 03:02 PM
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Tylerdurden1
reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


The next life? The after life or rencarnation?


Everybody has their own beliefs. I personally expect to meet my maker.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 08:24 PM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


Every thing that lives experiences some kind of pain. However, what we consider pain is an intellectual concept. I don't believe that a fetus feels pain the same way we do, They certainly don't internalize and get introspective over pain.

We can't avoid pain, labor and birth are painful. Should we anesthetize a fetus before labor, or force women to have C Sections, so the fetus will feel less pain?

Life is full of pain. Of course parents want to protect their children from pain, but the truth is, we can't. The fact that every thing that lives experiences pain, at some point, is no reason to ban legal, safe and accessible abortion.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Yes, every creature experiences pain. I know most people on ATS are compassionate and caring about the needs of others and wouldn't consciously chose to inflict pain on anyone or any creature.

That you suggest anesthetizing the child show compassion and your heart is certainly in the right place.

I saw this video John Elefante, the former leader singer of Kansas, made that tells the story of his adopted daughter’s birthmother. I hope you watch it. Why? Because I know that the choice of life can bring great happiness and love, which is an awesome thing.

John Elefante "This Time"

Love to all.



posted on Sep, 21 2013 @ 10:39 PM
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Things are what they are, whether we call them something different or not.

Abortion is taking a life of another.

Calling abortion by a different name doesn’t change what has occurred.

According to "Earthquake" Kelley, who went to heaven during an NDE, Jesus' heart really hurts over the condition of these abortions.

While in Heaven, he had a heart wrenching conversation with Jesus about children who have been aborted (@ 19min.).


And as he was leaving he saw three groups of children. The first group of children were those who had died through things like war, the second group of children died through abortion, murder in the womb. Did he have anything to say about those abortions, with that second group of children?

EARTHQUAKE: Yes, he said he sent, had a purpose that they were going to change a lot of things on this earth for the good. And his voice started changing as if it hurt him through his heart and it started trembling as if he were starting to cry. And that’s when I said, “God, you being God I didn’t know that you had this kind of emotion.” You can stop yourself from crying, but it’s not like that, he really, really hurts over the condition of these abortions. And when I saw, as I saw, actually I heard his voice change, and how he was saying I had a purpose for them, I had something that they were supposed to do, and because of sin and the hardness of man’s heart, and not taking me seriously, he said this is serious, he kept saying, this is serious, and as I saw that second group.

www.sidroth.us...

And he said you see that group over there playing? I had an awesome job for them also to do and because of abortion and because of evil and because of things of that nature, and then it was like tears were about to drop out of his eyes and I felt like if one of those tears came out, I thought it would be as big as an Olympic sized swimming pool, I couldn’t deal with it, I said God I didn’t know you hurt like that. And he said, Do you see that group over there running and playing.” And I said “Yes Lord, who are those?” And he said, “Those are the groups that I sent to so called church people, to so called Christian homes who secretly went and had an abortion, who did not trust me, who believed in the ways of the world, who did not believe that I would take care of them and another mouth to feed. So instead of trusting Me they went and they had an abortion.”

And there is even people now who is in the churches and I’m talking to somebody now that may be in a church right now who feels like God has abandoned you, left you he has put you down or whatever and you are listening to the voices, those voices, and I know about voices, trust me, and there is only one voice you need to listen to and that’s the voice of God. Do not destroy that life, because God has placed that, allowed that life to be in you so that life could be nurtured through the things of God so it can grow up and be a great man or woman of God. And God is telling me to tell you, don’t do it, don’t do it, because I’m here as an example of what can happen to a person’s life.

Bishop Earthquake Kelley on Sid Roth



posted on Sep, 22 2013 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


And, what makes her gift so beautiful, so gracious, is the fact that it was a choice.

I am pro-choice!



edit on 22-9-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)




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