I Finally Understand Why Abortion Can't Be Discussed Logically.

Lightseeker77
reply to post by RealWoman

 

I am really trying to understand where you are coming from. I will try one more time to explain myself because it's the only thing I can do because you clearly lack reading comprehension.

A woman is just as responsible as a man for an unwanted pregnancy. Yes, a man should of course be mindful of who he has sex with and how he goes about it. A woman has a greater responsibility because the consequences are harder on her. Psychologically, physically and emotionally. Follow me so far?

I do not think quiver breeding is even relevant, but since you brought it up, if it's a married couple with children and neither wants anymore children, why not get a vasectomy? why not get her tubes tied? Your argument makes no sense.

As far as the other ridiculous stuff you are saying, pressuming you know me, I must say that it is comical. I have been pregnat ONCE in my 36 yrs on this earth. I have one child. I learned very quickly that it was all I could handle, I am not single and enjoy a very healthy sex life. Why do you think that I hate anyone? Why do you think that I have any self-loathing? These are not rhetorical. I am quite interested as to why you would believe this.

I have said more than once that I respect and believe in the right to choose. It was just not something that I would do. My point has been all along(maybe now you will get it) that responsible adults should learn how to have sex, it is not difficult. We choose who we sleep with, we choose how to do it, we are both responsible. Women are NOT idiots. We know how to take care of ourselves.. How is that a bad stance?

No, women are not idiots and they know what's best for their lives. And thousands of times a day, what's best is abortion. You still seem to want to absolve men of all responsibility and "punish the woman for having sex."

aries58
reply to post by charles1952

 

-i've always thought that abortion cannot be discussed logically because....it is a very PRIVATE matter....

Another remark that makes sense.... Abortion is a very, very private matter... yet too many people demand a say in what goes on with a complete stranger's body just because that stranger has a uterus.

reply to post by RealWoman

Dear RealWoman,

No, women are not idiots and they know what's best for their lives. And thousands of times a day, what's best is abortion.

But do they know what is best for their children? Apparently not, thousands of times a day.

With respect,
Charles1952

RealWoman

Quadrivium

RealWoman

Quadrivium

RealWoman

gottaknow
Pro choice and I sympathize for the father in this situation. I have never understood why the decision is up to the mother and that if she chooses to keep it, he is bound to a lifetime of payments.

While I don't agree with the way he went about it, he has little or no choice in today's world.
I believe if a woman conceives and wants to keep it and the man is on the side of abortion/doesn't want to support the baby, there should be a civil understanding that he is without responsibility if she decides to keep it. Too often, women use this power to trap a man and then live off the payments that he works to earn.

The male DOES have a choice... not have sex or personally take responsibility for the use of birth control. Rarely does the male take responsibility to protect himself, but he certainly howls when he has to deal with the result.

True the male often ends up paying child support, but again, it's his decision to whine rather than take responsibility - and look for more options - like 50 / 50 parenting. Try to get a single male to agree to that!

As far as living off of meager child support payments? ROFLMAO. Unless you're a billionaire, it does not happen. It's more misogynistic mythology spouted by the male who willingly threw away his responsibility in the situation.

Several times now I have witnessed you spouting off about the males responsibility. I think you said something like "They made their choice when they dropped their drawers" .
You do understand this applies to the woman as well, don't you? "Biology 101".....right?
I contend that the woman made the choice as well when she "dropped her drawers" and opened her thighs.
Unless raped women have control in any given sex act. It's simple biology. It's the difference between testosterone and estrogen.
You say that the man gave up the right of property by dropping his drawers. Surely you see that the woman did so as well. You can't really be that shallow...........can you?

So what you've just said is that males have no responsibility in preventing an unwanted pregnancy and it's all the woman's fault. And how dare she not march to the male''s orders. LOL! Yeah, women are so over that. And that's what males can't handle. They can't control women anymore.

No what I said was that women and men both have a part to play. It's like YOU said, "biology 101“.
You are the one constantly trying to lay all the blame on the man.
I am not sure what kind of "men" you have been with or been around. But a real man, in my opinion, does not "control women". My wife has a mind of her own and trust me SHE USES IT.
I have brought my three boys up knowing that women should be respected.
It just amazes me that you could twist my post in such a way to fit your own perspective.
Fact: Men have just as much responsibility as women for using birth control. Sex (unless forced) is a mutual act.
Fact: Men produce the sperm, women produce AND CARRY the egg. Biology 101.
Fact: Both parties know their role before engaging in sexual activities and are aware of the possible out come.

My point, in short, is this: The roles have been set from the time you were in the womb. No amount of feminism will change it. If a man and woman have consensual sex then at that moment they BOTH made a choice. They BOTH knew their biological roles. If a pregnancy occurs because of that choice it should not be "offed" because both parties already made their choice and knew the roles they played.

You seem to be very hostile toward women. Why is that?

lol. Not women, I love women. Where would I be without them?
No RL I am not hostile towards women, only little girls trapped in women's bodies. I don't like the double standards that are applied. Most "women" who are very pro abortion want to blame the man for getting them pregnant, when in reality they played an equal roll.
I honestly and sincerely love and respect women. How could anyone who claims to be a man not?
You on the other hand seem VERY, VERY hostile towards men.........why is that?

Morningglory


Safe legal medical practices are always needed in a civilized society. Irresponsibly misusing/abusing them is more about the society and not the procedure.

I think you are so right! Back alley abortions are not a thing we need.

reply to post by Lightseeker77


Please ignore spelling errors and typos.. touch phone.

I don't think any women consider abortion as a forn od birth control. First they generally cost sveral hundred dollara, secondly the options are a potentially dangerous procedure or a pill that makes the woman violently ill. Third and final, a woman isn't supposed to have more than two a year because they can have negative effects and I dont know for sure and maybe a female here can answer, but I thought doctors didn't allow more than two a year dor some health reason, but I xouks be wrong . I was told by a girl that had had one, but I coukd have it wrong.

GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Lightseeker77

 

Please ignore spelling errors and typos.. touch phone.

I don't think any women consider abortion as a forn od birth control. First they generally cost sveral hundred dollara, secondly the options are a potentially dangerous procedure or a pill that makes the woman violently ill. Third and final, a woman isn't supposed to have more than two a year because they can have negative effects and I dont know for sure and maybe a female here can answer, but I thought doctors didn't allow more than two a year dor some health reason, but I xouks be wrong . I was told by a girl that had had one, but I coukd have it wrong.

edit on 15-9-2013 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)

I'v have never, ever heard a doctor say abortion - or pregnancy - should be limited to two a year.

Quadrivium

RealWoman

Quadrivium

RealWoman

Quadrivium

RealWoman

gottaknow
Pro choice and I sympathize for the father in this situation. I have never understood why the decision is up to the mother and that if she chooses to keep it, he is bound to a lifetime of payments.

While I don't agree with the way he went about it, he has little or no choice in today's world.
I believe if a woman conceives and wants to keep it and the man is on the side of abortion/doesn't want to support the baby, there should be a civil understanding that he is without responsibility if she decides to keep it. Too often, women use this power to trap a man and then live off the payments that he works to earn.

The male DOES have a choice... not have sex or personally take responsibility for the use of birth control. Rarely does the male take responsibility to protect himself, but he certainly howls when he has to deal with the result.

True the male often ends up paying child support, but again, it's his decision to whine rather than take responsibility - and look for more options - like 50 / 50 parenting. Try to get a single male to agree to that!

As far as living off of meager child support payments? ROFLMAO. Unless you're a billionaire, it does not happen. It's more misogynistic mythology spouted by the male who willingly threw away his responsibility in the situation.

Several times now I have witnessed you spouting off about the males responsibility. I think you said something like "They made their choice when they dropped their drawers" .
You do understand this applies to the woman as well, don't you? "Biology 101".....right?
I contend that the woman made the choice as well when she "dropped her drawers" and opened her thighs.
Unless raped women have control in any given sex act. It's simple biology. It's the difference between testosterone and estrogen.
You say that the man gave up the right of property by dropping his drawers. Surely you see that the woman did so as well. You can't really be that shallow...........can you?

So what you've just said is that males have no responsibility in preventing an unwanted pregnancy and it's all the woman's fault. And how dare she not march to the male''s orders. LOL! Yeah, women are so over that. And that's what males can't handle. They can't control women anymore.

No what I said was that women and men both have a part to play. It's like YOU said, "biology 101“.
You are the one constantly trying to lay all the blame on the man.
I am not sure what kind of "men" you have been with or been around. But a real man, in my opinion, does not "control women". My wife has a mind of her own and trust me SHE USES IT.
I have brought my three boys up knowing that women should be respected.
It just amazes me that you could twist my post in such a way to fit your own perspective.
Fact: Men have just as much responsibility as women for using birth control. Sex (unless forced) is a mutual act.
Fact: Men produce the sperm, women produce AND CARRY the egg. Biology 101.
Fact: Both parties know their role before engaging in sexual activities and are aware of the possible out come.

My point, in short, is this: The roles have been set from the time you were in the womb. No amount of feminism will change it. If a man and woman have consensual sex then at that moment they BOTH made a choice. They BOTH knew their biological roles. If a pregnancy occurs because of that choice it should not be "offed" because both parties already made their choice and knew the roles they played.

You seem to be very hostile toward women. Why is that?

lol. Not women, I love women. Where would I be without them?
No RL I am not hostile towards women, only little girls trapped in women's bodies. I don't like the double standards that are applied. Most "women" who are very pro abortion want to blame the man for getting them pregnant, when in reality they played an equal roll.
I honestly and sincerely love and respect women. How could anyone who claims to be a man not?
You on the other hand seem VERY, VERY hostile towards men.........why is that?

Do you call holding the male accountable for his actions hostile? Do you call not bowing to patriarchal control hostile? If so, then yes, I'm hostile.

charles1952
reply to post by RealWoman

 

Dear RealWoman,

No, women are not idiots and they know what's best for their lives. And thousands of times a day, what's best is abortion.

But do they know what is best for their children? Apparently not, thousands of times a day.

With respect,
Charles1952

I don't even know how to respond to such patriarchal nonsense. Yes, women do know what's best for their children. That's one of the reasons women DO have abortions.

Evanzsayz

RealWoman

Happy1
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

I think that people your age - the age where your mother could have easily had an abortion due to her circumstances - but choose not to - to choose the harder choice of giving her "child/fetus" a chance -

I think that's why (thank God) we have more people choosing anti-abortions more than pro-abortion.

Most women do feel guilty for abortions - I am 50 years old - the number of women my age that has had abortions is incredible - and they do feel guilty.

Yes, there are women who couldn't care less - but that is the minority.

How can a woman go through a pregnancy and not understand that the fetus is a being - not a "bag of cells"?

I won't even comment on the "rights that a father" should have in this event.

I absolutely disagree. I am 50 years old. I had an abortion 19 years ago and have zero remorse; zero guilt. It was the right choice for me then, and time has not changed my mind. In fact, as time passes, I see exactly how correct that decision was for many reasons.

Further, I know many women who've had abortions and not one regretted the decision. Not one. Therefore is highly presumptuous on your part to say most women feel guilty.

And I'm glad you're not commenting on father's "rights" - because they don't have any until the child is born.

Sounds like something a pathetic excuse for a human would say.

Do you really think anyone cares what you would say? LOL! I certainly do not. I would say that since you've stooped to name calling and insults, you've got nothing. And I win.

Again, this is just another thread where the pro-lifers dont quite grasp the fact that a baby isnt just for Christmas, it takes a life time to raise.

Stop being so emotional over something you couldn't care less about once its viable outside the womb.

reply to post by RealWoman


That is not what I am trying to do at all, RL. I have said that I respect a woman's right to choose.

Let's agree to disagree.

I never said a man is absolved of responsability. I never said abortions should be illegal. I never said that women should be punished for having sex. I did say that both human beings involved share equal responsability and that both should have a say in the outcome, that sex should be taken for what it is. A great responsability...

charles1952
reply to post by aries58

 

Dear aries58,

To some extent, you're quite right. In part it is a private matter.

But consider, is it private to the father? Is it private to society that we've lost, what, 50 - 60 million lives? Does it affect society that we have diminished the right to life for a segment of our population, indeed even changed the idea of what lives are worth saving? And what about the parents waiting two years to adopt?

I'm afraid that the effects of abortion extend further than just the mother and child.

With respect,
Charles1952

Actually studies show that the decline in violent crime in America correlates to the increase in abortion. scholar.harvard.edu...

One can only hope that the effects of abortion extend further than mother and child.

As far as parents waiting to adopt goes, there are thousands of children waiting to be adopted. But I guess they're already here, those lives aren't worth saving. Also, It's insulting to even imply that women should be brood mares for anyone.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Hello, Gogo.

I really didn't mean it in that way. I was responding to a fellow poster and was trying to convey that abortions are a serious issue, and while I am sure that it is not something that most women would do without giving it serious thought, there are some that are not careful with their bodies. Instead of practicing safe sex, abortion would be the first option if an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy occured.

I hope that I helped clarify my point of view.

PS..no worries about the typos and mispellings.

reply to post by RealWoman

Dear RealWoman,

Would you help me out a little, I'm unclear about something.

Do you call holding the male accountable for his actions hostile?

I assume you mean, but I'm not sure, that a male's action is having sex with a woman. His accountability would be child support, or prison if the sex was not consensual.

The woman's action would be allowing sex, and her accountability would be what, exactly? If abortion is an option, she's accountable for making an appointment and having the procedure done, is that about it?

Do you call not bowing to patriarchal control hostile? If so, then yes, I'm hostile.

Your use of "patriarchal" also confuses me. If you're saying no male should have a say in society's laws on the subject, I have no sympathy for you, as I've explained earlier. Will you also say that straights should not have a voice in gay marriage issues? I suppose you would, but that's not what happens.

Why is it patriarchal to want to save the lives of millions of female children? Why does patriarchal even come into the discussion? We have a mechanism for passing laws, and we've had it for a long time. Why is it now, suddenly, proper to resist that law-making mechanism? Because it doesn't give you the results you want?

If I'm misinterpreting you, please clear it up for me. I don't want to have an erroneous understanding.

With respect,
Charles1952

Abortions are performed on women covering a varied age range from say 14 years to 50 years

and I would hazard a guess that the reasons for having the procedure are just as varied and

change with every age grouping.


One thing no one has brought up on this thread yet is the cavalier attitude of the newest

generation.I have a lovely granddaughter just over 16 years of age and I'm blown away

by her maturity and sense. I was with her yesterday and she was researching for her

latest subject to be discussed in RE. and guess what!! It was the very subject we are

discussing on here ...

However that is not the point of my post which is :-

She has been to the school 'nurse' three times that I know of in the last 18 months in

support of fellow students/friends for the 'morning after' pill, not withstanding that they

are also under the age of consent.

Does the 'morning after' pill equate to contraption or abortion ?? and the 'cavalier attitude'

I referred to is these 'youngsters' have not even considered consequences before actions!

RealWoman

charles1952
reply to post by RealWoman

 

Dear RealWoman,

No, women are not idiots and they know what's best for their lives. And thousands of times a day, what's best is abortion.

But do they know what is best for their children? Apparently not, thousands of times a day.

With respect,
Charles1952

I don't even know how to respond to such patriarchal nonsense. Yes, women do know what's best for their children. That's one of the reasons women DO have abortions.

Death is what's best for a child? You're a serial killer.. I honestly can't imagine people like you actually exist. You've shown me today the world is in much worse a state than I previously thought. Disgraceful.. All abortion advocates and planned parenthood should be charged with murder for each innocent child they've murdered. It's indefensible the horrific and evil nature of people who support the killing of babies out of inconvenience.. You read about people like this when they leave babies in dumpsters because it's too much work.

I would love to see a law that requires a name to be given to a child as soon as a person finds out they're pregnant. That way when you go to get an abortion the doctor can ask you to say goodbye to Chris or they might say Jennifer is no longer alive and you're free to go.

Death is what's best for a child? You're a serial killer..

But there is not even a child present in the first several months at least. So abortion at that stage does not kill a child, it prevents one from developing. And that certainly can be what is best for a child, if the parents are not ready yet. In the same way as using a condom or abstaining from sex is wise when they are not ready.

reply to post by charles1952



HI Charles, I was avoiding this topic like the plague.


Abortion Clinics Closing at Record Rate
www.bpnews.net...

None was more telling for Johnson than the mid-July closing of the Planned Parenthood center in Bryan, Texas. It came less than four years after Johnson, burdened by her involvement with abortion, walked out of that clinic as its director and into the offices of the Coalition for Life.

"Knowing that the former abortion clinic I once ran is now closing is the biggest personal victory of my life," Johnson said in a written statement after the announcement of the shutdown. "From running that facility, to then advocating for its closure, and now celebrating that dream ... it shows that my life has indeed come full circle."

Since her celebrated conversion from Planned Parenthood director, Johnson has started a ministry to help workers leave the abortion industry. She has pledged, as she said in July, to "fight until every abortion clinic in this country has shut its doors."

Is it possible women are finally waking up?

Some measures have targeted making the procedure and clinics safer for women, and have helped escalate the number of clinic shutdowns. This year, states such as Alabama, North Carolina and Texas passed varied laws either requiring abortion clinics to meet the same health and safety standards as outpatient surgical centers, or authorizing the state to enforce such requirements. Also, in 2013, North Dakota and Wisconsin joined Alabama and Texas in mandating abortion doctors have admitting privileges at local hospitals.

So for person thinking the abortion industry isn't full of abuses, and is a safe way to terminate a pregnancy think again.


I have said time and again it made no sense to claim abortion is murder under one set of circumstances and not murder if the women wanted it , so which is it?
Abby Johnson

www.sba-list.org...
Delaware – Complete Failure to Regulate Abortion Clinics and Practitioners
Maryland – Death at the Hands of Notorious Late-Term Abortionist Leroy Carhart, Clinic Shut- Downs, Unlicensed Abortionist Operating Out-of-State
Pennsylvania – Gosnell’s House of Horrors and Clinic Shut Downs
Virginia – 80 Violations Even with Notice of Inspection
New Jersey – License Suspended in Bi-State Abortions, Planned Parenthood Sex-Trafficking Scandal
West Virginia- Abortionist Forcibly Aborts, Leave Fetal Remains Inside Mother
North Carolina – Dead Insects, Dirty Instruments and Improper Drug Use
Illinois – The Death of Tonya Reaves

2012

On July 20, 24-year-old Tonya Reaves died following a second-trimester abortion at a Chicago Planned Parenthood.[58]
Autopsy results reveal that Ms. Reaves died as a result of a hemorrhage following a botched surgical abortion.
Michigan – Decrepit Clinics Shut Down, Criminal Abortionist Covered by Board of Medicine
Ohio – More Clinic Shutdowns and Staff Failure
Louisiana – More Connections to Gosnell

the list goes on and on and on

www.sba-list.org...

One day science will prove abortion was barbaric.
www.abbyjohnson.org...

www.sba-list.org...

Planned Parenthood has prospered under the façade that it serves women’s health. But we’ve seen from their annual reports over time that abortion is their top concern. According to their most recent annual report:

Over the past three reported years (2009-2011), Planned Parenthood has performed nearly one million abortions (995,687).
Cancer screening & prevention services and contraceptive services provided by Planned Parenthood continue to drop. Contraceptive services have dropped by 12% since 2009, and cancer screening & prevention services have dropped by 29%.