Criticizing Western Thought

There was once a businessman who came in to port somewhere in Mexico. Once he got there, he saw a man sitting on the dock and playing guitar. He didn't understand how that man could be so relaxed when he could be working and building a future for himself!

"Hey there," the American said, "How can you be so relaxed? Shouldn't you be working so that you can get more money?"

"Why would I do that?" asked the man. "Tell me, sir, why you work so hard every day?"

The American huffed and puffed and became somewhat pissed - his eyes got lost in his own madness - "I work hard so that one day, I can earn enough money to retire and spend time relaxing and playing my guitar!"

"Ah, but sir, isn't that what I am doing now?"

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The west has absolutely no concept of realistic cause and effect, or any type of realistic values - instead, it is built upon delusions and lies. Everything we do is not based on any kind of outcome that we desire, but instead, based on fitting in and the fear of what will happen if we don't.

Things are actually a lot more simple and a lot more obvious than Westerners think they are, and all you have to do to get there, is get down to the cause and effect without the bull# in between.

It's kind of not that easy to do, though, in Western society because the society itself is set up in such a way as to confuse people about what is a good idea or not by infusing the system with artificial punishments.

For example, if you wish to have corn, well, you could go to the store and buy some seeds and grow them and have a corn garden. But - let's say you live next to a Westerner who thinks that people who grow their own corn are witches!

That Westerner will then call the police, and possible spread rumors about your corn growing prowess, resulting in you losing social status, friends, and all kinds of things! Of course you aren't going to grow corn after this!

But it's not real repercussions that are teaching you this, it is people that are completely insane that are teaching you this due to their incompetence in understanding reality.

So with that out of the way, anyone have any advice on how I can relate to Westerners or get work or friends with the way I think naturally? Cause it's a pain.

Avaidika

Sanskrit term meaning Non Science

Origin,
The term Avaidika originates from a proto Hinduism system related to the Rigveda which is said to have been imported into the Indus region by the Aryan race.

Etymology,
Sanskrit = अवैदिक = avaidika = non-Vedic
Usage traces back to Rigveda scripture, 2nd millennium BC

Usage,
This term is mainly used by practitioners of classical vedic systems,it is also used in Hinduism and Buddhism but the term seems to be limited to Vaisheshika and Samkhya circles within Hinduism and has somewhat been made synonymous with the term Ignorance in Buddhist based Dharma circles.
The usage of the term Non Science in western terminology has a completely different system of verification which is seen as invalid by vedic standards

Term meaning

By Vedic definition Non science is any observation outside the field of sensation. As Vedic Science is defined in terms of observation of enviornmental contact with the sense organs devoid of perception, in contrast contemporary western science would simply be termed Non Science by Vedic standards due to the use of non experiential observations, namely, abstract observation.

reply to post by darkbake


All I'm going to say is THAT is the difference between Mexico and the US.

That story was probably written by an 8 year old. Ohhh americans are suckers!

Give me a break.

FYI : while that mexican is struggling to feed his ten kids..the businessman is living in some expensive place and enjoying it. A product of his hard work. Nothing wrong with that !

darkbake
So with that out of the way, anyone have any advice on how I can relate to Westerners or get work or friends with the way I think naturally? Cause it's a pain.

If you lived in the UK I would say have a pop to Stonehenge on the summer solstice.

I totally get what you mean with your original post though, for instance just look at all those millionaires who lost pretty much everything with the last financial collapse. I bet they thought they were made for life... Nah mate ya just had numbers in a bank.

Too many people hold financial gain as the biggest importance in life, personally I just see it as tender. I find it easiest to relate to people just by talking with them just steer the conversation into places both of you enjoy talking about, as for work or working with westerners I'd say just do it. Work hard but not too hard because a lot of people will take you for granted... it's that capitalist mindset I guess, why do a hard job if Joe would do it

nightstalker78
reply to post by darkbake

 

All I'm going to say is THAT is the difference between Mexico and the US.

That story was probably written by an 8 year old. Ohhh americans are suckers!

Give me a break.

FYI : while that mexican is struggling to feed his ten kids..the businessman is living in some expensive place and enjoying it. A product of his hard work. Nothing wrong with that !

edit on 13-9-2013 by nightstalker78 because: (no reason given)

Nothing wrong with working hard, I can hardly sleep unless I put my back into something that day and I suppose there is nothing wrong with being financially secure and always wanting big luxurious things.

Something wrong with prejudice and stereotyping though, why does the Mexican have to have 10 kids and is struggling to feed them?

Maybe he owns a vast farm and is watching his corn shipment going to the US?
Ok maybe not but still.

I could make a judgement myself and say that business man has only 1 kid and that child is absolutely spoilt rotten and will grow up a deluded money grabbing piece of excrement. I do however loathe stereotyping people.

reply to post by RAY1990


Kind of my point. The OP is stereotyping westerners isn't he?

nightstalker78
reply to post by RAY1990

 

Kind of my point. The OP is stereotyping westerners isn't he?

Agreed he kind of is, the Op's general point though is true although it's stereotyping. So was your post come to think of it.

The one I heard was a little different. It starts with the relaxed guy fishing on a rock.

A rich guy comes alone and asks him "Why aren't you out working? It's only 1pm?"

"I'm a fisherman. I've caught enough fish on my boat today, so I'm relaxing with the rod." the fisherman replied.

"But if you went back out you could get even more for later!" the rich guy insisted.

"So? What for?" the fisherman asked.

"Well, then you could save up to buy a crew for your boat to help you." the rich guy replied.

"And?" the fisherman asked.

And then you could save to buy another boat and double your load." the rich guy explained.

"and... then what?" the fisherman queried.

"Well... youd get more money, and you could buy a whole bunch of boats, and get rich!"

"and then what!" the fisherman asked again.

"and then you could retire, and spend your afternoons fishing!" the rich guy blurted in frustration.

"But I'm already doing that!" the fisherman said, as he cast his hook out into the ocean.

reply to post by RAY1990


I came back on here to say it is stereotyping in that not everyone is going to follow the norm, by any means. What I was going to say, though, is in relation to that comment based on Vedic definition of non science.

I'm really interested in writing about culture, but I usually don't stop at reading about it - I prefer to not only visit somewhere, but become fully immersed in that place in order to get a better understanding of it. I've been immersed in poor society, rich society, liberal society, feminist society, female society, gaming society, and most recently conservative business based society with a libertarian take.

Criticizing western thought may come off as being a bit more critical than I had meant - as what I meant to do was make an accurate assessment of some of its downsides in order to draw a clearer picture.

As for the Vedic definition of non science, I think it applies to using books only and not immersion to study a society. Although I've never been immersed in different middle-Eastern countries, or been to Syria or Russia, if I had lived there as a local, I'm sure it would give me more insight into situations that are easily glossed over by politicians that are less traveled.

As for Mexico, I stayed in Tijuana for two weeks one time. People there built their houses out of scrap metal - I think some of them might have had electricity if someone had ran an extension cord in there? They had to buy bottled water and stuff since the local water was not safe to drink, but the feeling of community and stuff was a lot stronger than I've experienced most of my time in the states.

reply to post by winofiend


Yours is so much more refined than mine was and more extensive, I like it.

Something wrong with prejudice and stereotyping though, why does the Mexican have to have 10 kids and is struggling to feed them?

I don't really know if that would happen too often over there? I'm not sure if it would be struggling, they tend to appreciate their families and love each other a lot... I don't really think it is in their nature over there to be using people to feed their families, even the work they do over here in the U.S. is decent labor for less than minimum wage and they seem to be having a great time with it.

I've heard bad things about the drug cartels and politicians and police over there, but that's more along the lines of people in power abusing their privileges than poor people being a drain on the system or whatnot.

Other than that, some people like working hard, it can actually be fun, like having goals and interacting with people over common activities.

darkbake

For example, if you wish to have corn, well, you could go to the store and buy some seeds and grow them and have a corn garden. But - let's say you live next to a Westerner who thinks that people who grow their own corn are witches!

That Westerner will then call the police, and possible spread rumors about your corn growing prowess, resulting in you losing social status, friends, and all kinds of things! Of course you aren't going to grow corn after this!

But it's not real repercussions that are teaching you this, it is people that are completely insane that are teaching you this due to their incompetence in understanding reality.

It seems that you have very little understanding of the western world, and I do not mean that in an offensive way. This scenario you propose is not one that would happen in the western world. We don't call the police on people because we think they are witches, and we don't spread rumors about our neighbors corn growing prowess. That situation seemed like something from Borat.

What would really happen in the western world:

You want corn, so you go to the supermarket and buy corn. End of story.

But to extend it a bit:

You want corn, so you plant a corn garden.

A few weeks later, a SWAT team breaks into your house and arrests you and destroys your garden. You go to court for growing more corn than you can legally grow on your property. You pay a huge fine, and go home.

You replant your corn garden, this time making sure it's small enough to be OK.

A few weeks later, a SWAT team breaks into your house and arrests you, and destroys your garden. Evidently some Monsanto corn contaminated your garden, and you are now illegally growing Monstanto's trademarked corn. You not only pay a huge fine, but Monsanto has financially blackmailed you into signing a contract where you can only use their trademarked products.

You go home, replant your corn garden, this time with Monsanto name brand trademarked corn. For the rest of your life you are enslaved by monsanto.

A few weeks later, a SWAT team breaks into your house, destroys your garden, and arrests you. You had been selling a few ears of corn here and there in order to help pay for all the fines you incurred previously. You are charged with some crazy charge for selling food without a license or something along those lines. You pay a huge fine and go home.

You go replant your corn garden.

A few weeks later, a SWAT team breaks into your house, destroys your garden, and shoots your dog for good measure. You couldn't afford your water bill due to all the fines, so you have been collecting rainwater on your property. Big no-no. You pay another huge fine and go home.

You get home, go to your bedroom nightstand, pull out your pistol, and shoot yourself in the head.

A few weeks later a SWAT team breaks into your house, and arrests your dead body. Suicide is illegal, so they throw your corpse into a cell and leave it there until you turn to dust.

THAT is how things go down in the western world.

(Just to clarify, that was a fictional story that incorporated many things that have been going on in the west, it may be fictional as written, but each and every one of those things actually did happen to someone, except the throwing a corpse into jail part)

reply to post by darkbake

Well this is a little welcome Serendipity.

I was looking for the same type of story earlier today.

The version I heard? An American who's car had broken down was passing a villa where a man sat outside under a carob tree sipping wine and eating bread.

The American saw vast fields some planted with grapes, some fallow. His eyes sprung with tears of Capitalism.

“Why sir! You should hire many men! Till those open fields! Plant more vines and have more wine to sell!’

‘What would I want to do that?’

....Ok, so you know the rest of the story...

Why I was looking for the story is what I have not said - but you have very well.

Where I live? I’m a peasant. A popper. I work the earth every day and I take what I can from her and I am content. I have no car I have no security beyond what I can dry and salt away. I live from hand to mouth and any little monies I make selling mushrooms, hazel nuts or chestnuts? Goes to pay my small land tax.

It’s hell and bliss. It would be even more bliss if people would stop telling me I’m ‘going nowhere’. That I should doing something ‘successful’. That I should be doing ‘more’.

Why the hell can’t people see this is all there is? But no! They want me to go back to the States where I will have to:

Get a job, to get a car, to pay insurance on the car, to be able to drive to buy clothes for the new job that will requite I have a cell phone to keep the job that will pay for the car and the clothes and the insurance so I can work to pay for the...

What the hell.

Stop the mind set people. I know, I know - not all of you can ‘go back to living on the land’ but you can still apply the same mind set.

Do what you need to do to be content and only that.

Stop ‘keeping up with the Joneses’. That new cell phone, car, whatever? It’s old news the second you walk it or drive it out of the store. Those clothes and the ‘scene’ with 20 pairs a shoes? You‘ve only got two feet. LOL. What the hell is all the STOOF really doing for you? Nothing but raping you of your own sense, your own self - who you really are.

If you can - downsize to NOTHING. Nothing but what you absofreakintootely cannot do without. Then step back and live that life.

If you can - get the hell OUT. Find yourself a small plot. Start getting your hands dirty. Eat what you grow and you’ll be healthier and happier for it.

If we both die tomorrow - for whatever reason? We were going to die anyway. So die SUCCESSFUL. And that means each night you lay your head down on your pillow - silk or cotton? You smile. And you’re content. THAT is what living is all about. It is. Trust me.

peace

reply to post by James1982

Dear God James, I just read your post.

I hear you. I just can’t believe it’s that bad.

You’re telling me there’s NO WAY you can have a small piece of land, grow your own food and care for yourself, humbly, anywhere in America anymore?

You’re either exaggerating or I’m luckier than I ever knew not to be there anymore.

I hope you find a way out of your helplessness. Whatever the truth is in what you’ve said - I hope and pray you find a way out.

peace

reply to post by darkbake


Maybe you should stop the criticism of western thought? Haven't you heard the phrase "How to make friends and influence people".
Generalising western people is why you find it hard to make friends with them. Not all of us are the same.

silo13
reply to post by James1982

 

Dear God James, I just read your post.

I hear you. I just can’t believe it’s that bad.

You’re telling me there’s NO WAY you can have a small piece of land, grow your own food and care for yourself, humbly, anywhere in America anymore?

You’re either exaggerating or I’m luckier than I ever knew not to be there anymore.

I hope you find a way out of your helplessness. Whatever the truth is in what you’ve said - I hope and pray you find a way out.

peace

Oh that was a made up story! Just a collage of all the wonderful things happening across the country, luckily not things that happened to me or happened to one single person. Sorry if I misled ya! I'll put a disclaimer at the end if it's not too late to edit it. Thank you for your well wishes anyway

But yes it is exaggerated, there are still plenty of places where you can life somewhat independent, although all the rules and regulations are definitely still increasing. I'm sure you remember the story posted here on ATS awhile back about the community food garden that was ordered destroyed by the city or something like that. Total ridiculousness.

But I figured I'd just give the OP an exaggerated feel for what the western world is like, since corn growing prowess and witch neighbors was presented as something having to do with the western world. I might have misunderstood the intent of the OP.

To be honest I'm just very confused, but that's OK. Anyway, after reading your previous post, I got curious, where did you move to (if it isn't a secret) that you are able to live so independently? How long have you been there?

I've got to ask a question to the OP as well, OP, what was the corn prowess and witch neighbor thing all about? It made me chuckle a little bit, but I'm not sure if you think that's what goes on, or....? Where are you from originally, I'm assuming somewhere non-western?

reply to post by darkbake

It's not just Western thinking. I can tell you it's just like that in the Asian countries I've lived in. The hardest-working people I've ever seen are the Chinese — just about any Chinese at any level of society — and South Asian migrant labourers in the Middle East who work for a pittance under appalling conditions, live fifteen to a room and send all their money home to buy land, build houses, marry off their daughters and educate their sons. If those good folk aren't taking a mortgage out on the future, I don't know who is.

Besides, when I hear the words 'Western thought', I imagine it means Plato, Euripides, Aristotle, Jesus, Mohammad, Dante, Macchiavelli, Leonardo, Galileo, Shakespeare, Nietzsche, Mozart, Darwin, Freud, Einstein... to pick a few names at random. That's a pretty grand tradition — there's really nothing else to match it in any other epoch of human history.

What is particularly interesting is how Western thought picks up ideas that have been lying around for ever in other cultures without exciting any particular interest, and uses them in game-changing ways. The Chinese had gunpowder and printing presses for generations and pretty much all they got out of them was fireworks and artworks. Westerners got their hands on those two inventions. Gunpowder has given us the terrifying destructive power of modern ballastic weapons as well as the incredible adventure of space exploration; the printing press has given us scandal-sheets, political pamphlets and pornography as well as the Protestant Reformation and modern democracy.

It might be crazy, it might be dangerous but you have to admit it makes life interesting.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... The idea that hapiness is out there somewhere to be chased, hunted down and obtained is a major part of what Western society is founded on. Cradle to the grave cog in the machine of materialism and living in excess, out of want instead of need. Chasing happiness will not lead to liberation, nor is it any kind of life that brings any lasting happiness. Usually by the time anyone figures this out, they have trapped themselves in with so much responibility, all they can seem to do is; keep trudging along unhappy and unfulfilled.

It is a virtual impossibility to live any other way in Western society. To live any kind of life money has to be involved, can't squat legally without taxes, can't go fish a stream without a permit. It's getting pretty hard to do damn near anything, without some hand out looking for scratch first to before you're able to do it.

This is my personal beef with Western ideals and society, if you wanted to live "primitive" or off the land, and work for a pure self sustaining lifestyle without a job or a hand out wanting dues... I believe it is a natural human right to be able too so. Trying force everyone to live in monkey hives as a neccesity for living is pretty rediculous.

While no culture should be denigrated, so far much that I've seen from "Eastern culture" (including various purveyors of "Vedic culture") were a bunch of racists, classicists, sexists, homophobes, child abusers and money-grabbing gurus.

Even some of the material from well-known gurus in the West is so offensive that I couldn't even repeat it here.

I don't think any of them are any better than other religions, and it would break my heart with worry if anyone I knew had to get involved with 90 percent of them, or their corrupt organizations.

reply to post by darkbake


I think this is a fair critique. Unfortunately, though, this is becoming less "Western thought" and more "Human thought". Capitalism and the pursuit of happiness in material wealth will soon bleed this planet dry, but not before the entirety of humanity is psychologically alienated from their roots and lose all existential understanding of who they are and where they belong.