Undeniable logic proving that god created the universe.

Cedik
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

Time is part of the universe, if God created the universe then he created time. Form this we assume (and also told in scriptures but we will leave the religion bit out for now) that God exists outside of time. If there is no time how can he have a beginning?

Ok. So many people are asking about the god thing that I am going to be drawn on it but please remember, this is not the point of the thread. I stated that in the op.

We only have access to the things we experience. From this we can make assumptions about things like the nature of god or where we go when we die. Many people talk about these assumptions as if they are reality yet to the third party, they have no way of telling one from the next. This scares me. The vast majority of religions have elements of this.

I do not think that I am aware enough of god to make a punt at what he/she/it is. I do not see that that is particularly beneficial. I do not rule out the fact that this may be a matrix simulation. I do not rule anything out. You could say that god was a pea cartoon living in a house made from cheese in ron jeremy's anus.

I choose to live my life in the best way I can. Helping those around me and supporting my family. I choose to believe that god is the creator of life and love. I follow this principal. I send out love and try to spread (non cheesy) positivity every day. Our world can be pretty #ty, there are many people trying to make it better and I will continue to do so until the day that I return to wherehence I came. This for me is god.

Altruism doesn't require faith. Don't you feel like you're peeing into the wind though? If God is the creator of life and love then surely he is also the creator of all the cruelty and suffering in the world. Aren't you undoing all his hard work by helping others he has put good time and effort into hexing?

reply to post by Wertdagf


You are being too simplistic. Just as I was in the thread title. There are many positive affects of religion as well as negative. There are people who are drawn to 'bad' deeds and just the opposite. Life is ambivalent, sometimes appearing fortunate and others disastrous.

If people want to get together and celebrate their beliefs. who is to tell them not to. Indeed freedom of speech and expression is incredibly important to the human being. You would deny someone that?

reply to post by dragonridr

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

I would love to think that god helps me everyday. In fact I do not rule it out.

I think that the world is ambivalent in it's nature and can easily be a cruel and wicked place. There is no way to get around this.

The world to me is a mass of interrelating elements. Most people are cast adrift in this churning mass with a tiny outboard motor trying to control their progress. To cut a long story short, I dont attribute the ambivalent nature of life on earth to god.

Cedik
I would love to think that god helps me everyday. In fact I do not rule it out.

I think that the world is ambivalent in it's nature and can easily be a cruel and wicked place. There is no way to get around this.

The world to me is a mass of interrelating elements. Most people are cast adrift in this churning mass with a tiny outboard motor trying to control their progress. To cut a long story short, I dont attribute the ambivalent nature of life on earth to god.

So what would be the point of a/your God in an ambivalent world?

He just sits back arms folded, watching all the horrific acts being carried out, ignores all the prayers and pleas for help and mercy?

Unless of course you're right and in this ambivalent world your god does indeed help you personally on a daily basis, which would indicate the help was often small, mundane and largely irrelevant. But chooses not to help all of the millions of people suffering grievously right now throughout the world?

You attribute everything else in existence to this 'god', just not the ambivalence found here on earth, just a little convenient no?

reply to post by peter vlar


So there is no test to prove life, just a series or criteria that must be met.

What about Cyanobacteria that was mentioned in a previous post. That would fail your criteria. Is it still alive?

reply to post by iterationzero


I believe that humans and all living things have an energy field (maybe called chi or universal energy or whatever). If an amino acid has an energy field, then it is alive.

reply to post by helldiver

My point is exactly like you said (see above). You're harping on about "life begets life" but apparently you've only just been introduced to abiogenesis. How can you debate something effectively if you haven't the foggiest about the subject.

Seriously man you might as well believe in Darth Vader, that's how ridiculous your argument is. All the time and effort you contribute to this creation fallacy is such a waste.

It is quite apparent now that the op was flawed in it's logic. Things like abiogenesis prove this. If you just sat at home thinking 'oh no I wont do that or say that because i may not know the answer' it would be a ridiculous situation. I put my opinion on the line.

Your next statement is an attempt to humiliate me. I have seen a number of posts of this type through the thread and this concerns me greatly. I can take it but there are many who would be hurt by your callous attitude and it is just this I want to tackle.

There is no more likelihood that any of the theories expounded in this thread created the universe than 'god'. Therefore you ridiculing me for my beliefs is actively encouraging ignorance as opposed to informed debate.

Many people have remained civil in this thread, I would ask you to do the same in the future.

Cedik
reply to post by peter vlar

 

So there is no test to prove life, just a series or criteria that must be met.

What about Cyanobacteria that was mentioned in a previous post. That would fail your criteria. Is it still alive?

Ahhh semantics how I love thee... Tell me, is not a test composed of criteria that must be satisfied in order to pass?oh and how does Cyanobacteria NOT. Qualify as alive under what I posted? Does it reproduce? Yup. Does it grow? Check. Des it require food? Sure does! Do they reproduce? Yes again... Are they made up of cells? Ding ding ding we have a winner!!!

reply to post by Cedik


I'm not trying to humiliate you at all, I genuinely don't understand your 'logic'.

For example;

You're saying that everything alive has an energy. Yes but produced by chemical reactions, action potentials spring to mind here.

You could describe a single amino acid as having energy but only in the sense of covalent bonds, it is certainly not alive though.

I'm sorry if the Darth Vader thing insults but this analogy goes both ways. Should I feel insulted when some of the most powerful politicians in the world end a speech by saying "God willing"? I can honestly say this wouldn't insult me but it would send a shiver up my back.

Would it have offended you less if I used a fairy, sprite or wizard instead of Darth Vader?

And anyway, why not Darth Vader? Going by your logic it should be perfectly acceptable to have a religious belief system based on the Jedi. Or one step further, or one which embraces the Dark Side.

There's no more proof that the Jedi are real than there is of ANY god or creator (in the deity sense).

The OP is right. Just like I know everything, because I do. No further explaination is needed. You don't believe me? Prove that I'm wrong!

(Hey, OP, that's they way to make a point, right?)

reply to post by Cedik

I believe that humans and all living things have an energy field (maybe called chi or universal energy or whatever). If an amino acid has an energy field, then it is alive.

How would you objectively measure that "energy field" for a given object?

Cedik
reply to post by iterationzero

 

I believe that humans and all living things have an energy field (maybe called chi or universal energy or whatever). If an amino acid has an energy field, then it is alive.

One of the silliest things human beings do is being demonstrated right here.

Saying "I believe" followed by a fallacy.

You have no grounds for an opinion about the definition of a word, Miss Palin.

Yup the OP has gone from

'Undeniable logic proving.....'

to

'I believe.....'

Stick a fork in this thread...it's done

reply to post by Cedik


meeeee!!! explain more i missed the logic part

reply to post by helldiver

Altruism doesn't require faith. Don't you feel like you're peeing into the wind though? If God is the creator of life and love then surely he is also the creator of all the cruelty and suffering in the world. Aren't you undoing all his hard work by helping others he has put good time and effort into hexing?

Like, I have said. The world is ambivalent. Mother Nature can be very cruel and we live in her grasp as much as we like to fool ourselves that we don't. All you have in your life are the choices you make and this is your agency.

Your statement is full of your prejudices about religion. You assume that god deliberately 'hex's' people. You assume that god creates cruelty.

What do you believe? In science? What of the many theories do you attribute to the creation of the universe? You could not even venture into the idea of the nature of god. It is obvious to me that we live in an ambivalent objective balance where the subjective thought processes of the individual are able to manifest change in the world. This balance can be altered. I for one want to change that balance for the better. I can see the lure of many things but I choose different. I choose to think that my god is not nature.

reply to post by Cedik


How is any of that an assumption when it's in black and white all throughout the Old Testament? Either the bible is accurate or it's not. It can't be accurate in the regards that work in favor of your views and inaccurate in those you wish to discard. That's the height of intellectual dishonesty.

reply to post by Prezbo369

Unless of course you're right and in this ambivalent world your god does indeed help you personally on a daily basis, which would indicate the help was often small, mundane and largely irrelevant. But chooses not to help all of the millions of people suffering grievously right now throughout the world?

I never said that god helped me on a daily basis so your point is null. Please read more carefully.

You attribute everything else in existence to this 'god', just not the ambivalence found here on earth, just a little convenient no?

Why convenient? I cannot say what the nature of god is and to be honest I do not expect you to support my beliefs. What are yours?

reply to post by Cedik


No, that's ok.

You don't need to explain further.

There is no "logic" in your claim at all up to this point, just a claim made by you.

So I wonder how that undeniable logical proof is working out for you...

Oh look at that! People are denying the undeniable!

Well, I would never have expected that..

Cedik
It is impossible to create anything in this world/dimension without life itself being ther creator.

I would say that it's impossible to perceive the universe without consciousness, and without perception you can't prove anything exists (including "God," whatever that may be). But that doesn't require a nebulous, incomprehensible God. It just requires you and me and imagination and whatever alien consciousnesses in the past, present or future that might or might not be out there looking up at the stars.