A Lesson on Telling Lies

The world is full of lies. People telling outright and deliberate lies. LIes about others. Lies about events. Lies about everything in life. Some people have motive. Some people have agenda. Some people do it just because they can or because they are covering for their own errors. Some lie about others because of their own jealousy of those people and they want to bring the others down to their miserable level. All other evil that happens in the world is built on the foundation of lies and liars.

This Buddhist teaching on lies is really a good read ...

Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta: Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone (BUDDHIST) on telling lies

At that time Ven. Rahula was staying at the Mango Stone. Then the Blessed One, arising from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to where Ven. Rahula was staying at the Mango Stone. Ven. Rahula saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, set out a seat & water for washing the feet. The Blessed One sat down on the seat set out and, having sat down, washed his feet. Ven. Rahula, bowing down to the Blessed One, sat to one side.

Then the Blessed One, having left a little bit of water in the water dipper, said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see this little bit of left-over water remaining in the water dipper?"

"Yes, sir."

"That's how little of a contemplative[2] there is in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie."

Having tossed away the little bit of left-over water, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how this little bit of left-over water is tossed away?"

"Yes, sir."

"Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is tossed away just like that."

Having turned the water dipper upside down, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how this water dipper is turned upside down?"

"Yes, sir."

"Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is turned upside down just like that."

Having turned the water dipper right-side up, the Blessed One said to Ven. Rahula, "Rahula, do you see how empty & hollow this water dipper is?"

"Yes, sir."

"Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is empty & hollow just like that.

"Rahula, it's like a royal elephant: immense, pedigreed, accustomed to battles, its tusks like chariot poles. Having gone into battle, it uses its forefeet & hindfeet, its forequarters & hindquarters, its head & ears & tusks & tail, but keeps protecting its trunk. The elephant trainer notices that and thinks, 'This royal elephant has not given up its life to the king.' But when the royal elephant... having gone into battle, uses its forefeet & hindfeet, its forequarters & hindquarters, its head & ears & tusks & tail & his trunk, the trainer notices that and thinks, 'This royal elephant has given up its life to the king. There is nothing it will not do.'

"In the same way, Rahula, when anyone feels no shame in telling a deliberate lie, there is no evil, I tell you, he will not do. Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself, 'I will not tell a deliberate lie even in jest.'

According to this teaching - a person who lies will not stop with 'just' lies. There is nothing that person will not do. A liar is more evil than we think. When asking people what is the worst thing a person can do, we don't usually think of telling lies or deceiving others. We usually think of murder or adultery, etc. But according to Buddhist teaching, a person who will lie will stop at nothing and the other evils will come.

Those telling lies because of their own agenda can change the situation in favor of their desires. But that new reality is based on falsehoods. The bible says that a house built on sand can not stand and that is what happens when people build on lies. The foundation is weak and will eventually crumble and fall when the lies are exposed. No matter what people think about the bible, that's a good teaching about what happens when you try to build on lies.

Some people tell lies about other people in order to try to discredit them. Sometimes this works for a while. But when the truth comes out, the liar is the one discredited. In my own experience (some of it here at ATS), when people have lied about me and been caught at it, they refuse to apologize. They refuse to admit they told lies even in the face of the truth. The buddhist teaching on liars is true .... there is nothing that a liar won't do. When caught, they end up shaming themselves instead of the person who they tried to ruin.

I have noticed that liars, when caught in lies, act like they haven't lied. They have no shame. They lie to cover being caught in lies. A very recent example - Obama's 'I never set a red line' lie comes to mind. He screwed up; tried to cover with a lie; showed no shame in having other politicians cover his lie with their corresponding lies - even though the entire planet knows he lied, Obama offers no apology or acknowledgement that he lied to cover. I've seen this same kind of behavior with liars in real life. No shame. No regrets. Just more lies.

Some lies endure. And we can see the evil that pours off what has grown from the original lies.

Example - Lies of cult leaders the the past hundreds of years who sucked ignorant people in. Some of those cults survive and the evil that is done in the name of those cults is outrageous. That evil is the fruit of the original lies. (like the teaching said - the lie eventually leads to all evils being committed (paraphrase) )

Example - Lies of politicians and leaders around the world. What evil won't they do to uphold themselves in positions and to further their agendas? ... Putin, Obama, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Assad, Lil' Kim of N. Korea, Muslim Brotherhood leadership, Hamas, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, John McCain ... various religious leaders around the world - be they Christian or Muslim or _____ (fill in the blank), all telling lies about the other in order to keep their flocks (and the income from those flocks) ... etc etc. The fruit of their lies is more and more evil.

Sure .. sometimes people get something wrong but they were sincerely wrong. They admit it when confronted with truth. So that's not a lie. I'm talking about LIES ... agendas ... purposely misleading others.

So perhaps we should take lies more seriously. We should take the lies of Ministers and Imams and Politicians and co-Workers and neighbors and even the lies of posters here at ATS more seriously. All evil is built on the foundation of lies. And instead of saying 'oh, he's just another liar politician' and brush it off because we are jaded (I admit I'm VERY jaded), perhaps we should understand that all the evil in the world has at it's root LIES. We wonder why there is so much evil in the world. It starts with LIES. The evil is built on top of LIES. Lies in politics. Lies in religion. Lies because of jealousy, greed, corruption, agenda .... but the bottom line is LIES.

If we hold people more accountable for lies, perhaps there wouldn't be so much evil in the world today. Kill the lies .. expose them to sunlight ... drive a steak through the heart of a lie ... and the evil will be stopped before it can grow into a huge monster.

Hi FlyersFan,
The problem with lies is that some people believe them...and feed into them.
It's very hard (sometimes) to KNOW that a lie is indeed a lie. Usually it takes a gut 'instinct' to tell us that we should question what we're being told.

I find humans to be very gullible...many people believe anything they hear, especially if they tend to believe that the source is honest and sincere.

I think that is why we have so many conspiracies. We hear (or see) something that just doesn't feel right, so we start analyzing and looking for alternative truths. Sometimes our own beliefs are based on other lies that we DO believe....so the conspiracy theories can become quite far-fetched (at times).

Most of us here (on ATS) seem to realize that we're being lied to....the problem is proving it.
Being open-minded to alternate theories can open the door to more lies, so we really need to rely on our own individual 'gut instinct' to decide what we ought to question.

Great thread. S&F
jacygirl

FlyersFan
All evil is built on the foundation of lies.

Actually, I would say that lies are the product of greed and the lust for power.
Power can be something small like only "winning" a conversation.

Nice thread.

jacygirl
The problem with lies is that some people believe them...and feed into them.

Yep.

That's why I said that there are some who are sincerely wrong about defending something that is a lie. They think they are correct. So they really aren't liars. They are just simply wrong. Folks like that will eventually admit that they were wrong and apologize when confronted with facts. Many will work to fix their mistakes and try to help others who behaved as they did to stop pushing what turned out to be a lie. They may end up working for truth.

Real liars are different. They don't care if they are wrong. They stick to the lie. When exposed, they don't apologize but instead try to cover with more lies. They don't care who they hurt. They don't care that they are wrong. They just keep telling lies to further themselves and/or their agendas. All evil is built on lies and liars such as these.

theMediator
Actually, I would say that lies are the product of greed and the lust for power.
Power can be something small like only "winning" a conversation.

Good discussion .... Kind of 'what came first, the chicken or the egg?'

Greed; lust for power; jealousy; pride; etc ... those are motives for lies. The lie is made.
This is the base for the evils that follow. IMHO.

reply to post by FlyersFan


This is a very good article Flyersfan. It has a lot of truth to it. Some of the worst lies told are to ourselves because they form justification to continue evil.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Like most of the greatest teachings of wisdom to imprint themselves upon my brain growing up this teaching too came from my dear Granny....

When I was a kid (elementary school aged) my Granny caught me in a lie. I don't remember what the lie was about any more, just what I learned from the experience. Anyway, somehow Granny already knew the truth of the matter but decided to give me a chance to hang myself with my own rope- and started interrogating me. It didn't take long before additional lies started spewing from my mouth to cover the first lie, then more lies to cover the subsequent lies. Finally I got so mixed up in details I gave up and cried to my Granny the details of what had really happened. "Come with me" she said, and I knew it was time to cut a switch.

When Granny settled on a switch I cut it and started stripping it, knowing what was coming. She looked at me and told me that when you lie it always leads to more and more lies to cover the first lie. She told me it is better to say nothing at all than to tell a lie- that way you don't have to worry about keeping your stories straight. Granny looked me in the eyes to make sure I really understood what she had just said, then she nodded her head, swatted the fire out of my behind- but only once- then laughed and told me to get back to my chores. What she told me stuck for life though: I try my hardest not to lie, and rather than lie I will keep my mouth shut if at all possible. Life just flows easier that way. And for the record- on the extremely rare occasion that a lie leaves my lips or fingertips I feel completely horrible and sad about it.... even if it was done to spare someone's feelings.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I learned a long time ago to not lie. That you should never put yourself in a position where a lie is necessary.

I learned that by telling the truth, but in the manner I want the listener to hear it is so much easier and you don't have to keep up with a false narrative over time.

We see that in politics all the time. *Insertwinkhere*

reply to post by littled16

SMART granny! Lies lead to more lies. One lie never is enough. Once a person gets away with one lie, more will follow. It's like stealing .. after getting away with it the first time, more follows.

It starts when we are young. We lie to get out of trouble with our parents. We lie to gain interest of friends. Our PARENTS lie to us about Santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy. It's been going on for generations. But it starts with "harmless" white lies that we don't think hurt anyone, not realizing how easily we progress into telling lies that hurt others and ourselves. It quietly snowballs out of control.
There is no fear of consequence of lying anymore. Sadly.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I have had much experience with 'real liars' in my life. Their lies created a lot of damage.
What really confused me, was the fact that some of these people actually believed the story(s) they were spewing. It took me a while to figure out why.
I realized that they HAD to believe their own lies, in order to justify their behaviour/actions. They altered reality, re-wrote it...and then accepted it as fact.
An example: Husband of many years, father of 3 small children...has affair at work. Eventually gets caught by wife....eventually leaves to move in with girlfriend.
Tells horrible lies about wife to everyone....absolutely everyone....to justify affair, and leaving family.
Of course he would NEVER be truthful and say, "My wife was a lovely person, but she was just too busy with the children to stroke my ego...so I found someone else to do it....and then the SHTF."
In his story, the ex-wife had to DESERVE being left, so that family/friends would accept his actions. Not his fault.
This is just one small example. I see people lie to justify their actions...the root being selfishness...so yeah, I agree. Liars can become quite evil.
jacygirl

jacygirl
I realized that they HAD to believe their own lies, in order to justify their behaviour/actions. They altered reality, re-wrote it...and then accepted it as fact.

Ah yes ... I have had a run in with one of those.
The evil that comes from their lies is very damaging!

I needed this post.
I am re-evaluating my life. Liars have had significant impact on me and as I go forward I want to steer clear of making the same mistake over and over again. My x-husband lied about his taxes. He grew up farming and each year the state he lived in would tax farmers on every piece of equipment they owned. Ok I get that this is excessive - and farmers would move tractors and things and hide stuff - so the seed was planted. But by the time I met my x husband he had been in the military many years and essentially his income was paid by taxes.

SOOOO - this lying, cheating - the tax man stuff - was really a character flaw I should have paid attention to more closely. Because this kind of behavior bleeds over. People who can justify wrong actions will stretch that.

I had a catastrophic situation this summer. I was involved once again. The man lied right to me - I was in Love deeply too. He lied right to me and our friend facebook provided proof. I went crazy losing my mind in anger and posting all kinds of things to address this liar. It hurt many people. It hurt his standing in the community. I didn't mean to rip his entire world apart but he lied to me - BIG TIME.

I needed this post to remind me that when people tell deliberate lies with no shame - its the tip of the iceburg. Its a flaw in character. I forget this and find myself wallowing in the what ifs and could have beens and the reality is it will never work out with people who lie.

You can not put your faith, friendship, trust and Love into people who lie.

With lies, I have much experience. Mostly the lies coming from myself.
From a young age, when I found it was easier to cover up rather than to tell the truth, I have lied.
About small, big, important, unimportant. And most of the time, I wasn't caught. When I was, I had remorse, for about 2 days. Then I simply continued. This continued on and on, never quite stopping.
I became quite a compulsive liar. I lied about how things happened and about this and that.
One of the worst cases where I lied, is when I stole the janitor's keys and lied for three weeks, until a classmate ratted me out. The janitor could have lost his job, just for my jest.

However, about two years ago, I met this girl. She was nothing to me, and I basically lead her on and used her. At the end, I was again caught in a lie, and she broke off all contact. I felt remorse again, and reflected on everything I had done to her and before that too. Especially her case made me feel that is time to change, and not the kind of change that is for 2 days and then back to the old ways, but the lasting kind.

So now, I started telling the truth whenever I was asked about things. If I caught myself telling, I would go back to them and say sorry, followed by me telling the truth.
About a week into doing this, I met another girl. She was pretty, cute, was quite into me, and I wasn't equally into her. Normally, I'd either lead her on at the chance of getting laid and such. But this time, I just told her that I wasn't quite ready for anything and that I had to work on myself first. She broke off all contact. But I didn't mind.

All in all, I feel like a better person after this year of cleansing.
Plus, due to the years of lying, it's remarkably easy for me to spot the liars.
So I guess it did have some good, in the end.

reply to post by LittleBirdSaid


Hi LittleBirdSaid,
Sorry to hear about your painful situation.
It's hard for us to accept that the people we love would lie to us. When we're emotionally attached to someone, it's easy to view them through those old rose coloured glasses.
Sadly, if someone will lie to the government (re taxes), to their friends, their boss, etc....then very likely, they will also lie to us.
Even if we suspect we are being lied to, we will make excuses, blame ourselves...anything but accept the awful truth. I find that once the hurt has passed a little bit, it's easier to look back and realize that this person was not exactly who we wanted them to be.
If a person will lie and cheat to others, they are also capable of lying and cheating to us.
What I find funny is, that honest people expect others to be honest...and liars expect others to lie. A psychologist once told me, "An accusing mind is a guilty mind." In my experiences, the liars were always accusing other people of lying to them.
My problem is that I'm too honest (Sagittarian trait, lol)...so I expect honesty from others.
jacygirl

reply to post by jacygirl


Thank you Jacygirl. :-) The support means a lot!
I know it - I am honest to a fault. A real "doom and gloomer" - LOL.
I don't see it that way - and try and keep my circle down to those who know what to expect of me.

I had a sort of epiphany though about both my x and this recent situation. I was told by others what a "great guy" they both were. People going on and on about that, such great guys. I now see this as over compensation for something to be such a "great guy" - nobody says that about me because I don't always agree with, go along with or support things that are less then above board. I can be a "kill joy" with my honestly - LOL.

It got me thinking back to a gentleman I had a crush on years back, he had a hard job and to do it he had to be tough and as a result a lot of people didn't toot his horn. So going forward I know - maybe the one I want does difficult things and doesn't always make people happy - but he lives more honestly. Does this make sense?

This goes for all of us. I guess. Take time to evaluate the person fully and remember not to get swept up by fantasy while wearing those rose colored shades . . .

I don't think Buddhist men would fair well with western women.

"So honey do you think my butt is fat?"

If you don't answer then you are in more trouble than answering incorrectly.

Can you imagine our current society if we didn't tell any lies at all? Including published stories.

Heck we seem to re-enforce fantasy and lies from a very early age. Santa, Tooth-fairy, Easter bunny...and on and on...

reply to post by LittleBirdSaid


LOL...I know what you mean about those 'great guys' (great women too)...that outsiders think are just SO wonderful. It's amazing how someone can be so slick....compliments (when they're trying to sell you something)...so complimentary (when they have an agenda).
It all comes back to lies again.
Some people have a public persona, whereas everyone thinks they are nice...but it's to their advantage for you to think that.
A lot of people don't believe an abused spouse/partner, because the so-called abuser seems so nice. When you live with someone, you see their true colours.
A friend once continually complained that her partner never buys her gifts, flowers, romantic stuff. I finally told her, "He's not THAT guy!" He has never been like that, he hasn't changed, and likely won't. She just didn't want to see the reality.
Reality can suck.
jacygirl

reply to post by Realtruth


Why did you even bother to reply.

You should have said..."Just look at my avatar name." *insert wink here*

Still gave ya a star though, now grab $1.69 out of your coin jar and your star and go get a cup of coffee. LOL

Realtruth
I don't think Buddhist men would fair well with western women.

"So honey do you think my butt is fat?"

If you don't answer then you are in more trouble than answering incorrectly.

Can you imagine our current society if we didn't tell any lies at all? Including published stories.

Heck we seem to re-enforce fantasy and lies from a very early age. Santa, Tooth-fairy, Easter bunny...and on and on...

edit on 12-9-2013 by Realtruth because: (no reason given)

Hi Realtruth,
You know....it's amazing how many people tell me "You're SO skinny!"
Would those same people tell me I'm SO fat (if I was)? Not likely.
Why? Because in this society, being skinny is supposed to be a compliment. They think they are saying something NICE to me.
The reason I'm so skinny, is stress and related health problems. But no one sees this.
I'd rather have someone be honest with me...tell me I have something stuck in my teeth (hubby did this last night, lol...I appreciated it).
The people who truly care about me will tell me honestly, "You've lost a lot of weight...are you ok?"....not just compliment me on how well I fit into this sick society's inane projection of how a woman is supposed to look.
But that's just my opinion, lol.
jacygirl