It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
reply to post by Akragon
I tend to take a more stringent view of what counts as a "God" than early jews, apparently. Sons of God is also pushing it a bit, considering how much the phrase confused Christians.
By the way, you missed out the beginning of the verse you quoted:
I told you, and ye do not believe; the works that I do in the name of my Father, these testify concerning me; but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep, according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me, and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father; I and the Father are one.
Really isn't a claim to Godhood at all, simply a way of expressing himself.
So unless there are two or more Gods (i.e. polytheism), it doesn't work.
Yet Buddha didn't speak of God... he did say there was a higher power but didn't bother dealing with who or what it was...
Although an absolute creator god is absent in most forms of Buddhism, veneration or worship of the Buddha and other Buddhas does play a major role in all forms of Buddhism. In Buddhism all beings may strive for Buddhahood . Throughout the schools of Buddhism, it is taught that being born in the human realm is best for realizing full enlightenment, whereas being born as a god presents one with too much pleasure and too many distractions to provide any motivation for serious insight meditation. Doctrines of theosis have played an important role in Christian thought, and there are a number of theistic variations of Hinduism where a practitioner can strive to become the godhead (for example Vedanta), but from a Buddhist perspective, such attainment would be disadvantageous to the attainment of nirvana,since it may possibly be based on mental reification. Some forms of Buddhist meditation, however, share more similarities with the concept of henosis.
JESUS: "A foolish man, which built his house on sand."
BUDDHA: "Perishable is a city built on sand." (30)
JESUS: "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed."
BUDDHA: "Confess before the world the sins you have committed." (31)
JESUS: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the foregiveness of sins."
BUDDHA: "Let all sins that were committed in this world fall on me, that the world may be delivered." (32)
JESUS: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
BUDDHA: "Consider others as yourself." (33)
JESUS: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also."
BUDDHA: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon all desires and utter no evil words." (34)
JESUS: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."
BUDDHA: "Hatreds do not cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good." (35)
JESUS: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
BUDDHA: "Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world." (36)
JESUS: "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone at her."
BUDDHA: "Do not look at the faults of others or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done." (37)
JESUS: "You father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."
BUDDHA: "The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low." (38)
JESUS: "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
BUDDHA: "The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond." (39)
Are you saying then that the Father is the "Justice" aspect?
I think it is Hinduism that goes into aspects and avatars and incarnations more so than Buddhism.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Inspired... Just doesn't cut it
But they aren't 3 separate accounts. Many of the sources copied from each other
In many of the related stories, the wording is exactly the same. In others, it varies slightly.
I wasn't aware that Thomas was even considered part of the canon.
And John? I thought it was pretty much agreed that the Johannine literature wasn't written by John,
and in fact was composed by multiple authors (even specifically the Gospel of John itself), near the end of the 1st century.
And as I said, if all you have to justify something to yourself is faith, then time really doesn't make a difference. If we were in the year 3rd millennium instead of the 2nd, would the Bible become less valid to christians?
Does the fact that for hundreds of years, believers accepted the Comma Johanneum as fact, and it was part of the Bible, phase current Christians?
If I inserted "And God is Good" at a random point in a Bible, and that version was copied and repeated, a thousand years down the line, would that make a difference? What if instead I did "And Jesus didn't like the taste of figs"?
I dislike the word "inspired" in any case... I've seen many things around this place there were "inspired" by god... some of them make me wretch.
Actually no its not... there are a some passages where the wording is exactly the same, but it is by no means the majority of the texts... read any chapter of any of the gospels and compare it to the verses that are similar... in some rare cases the wording is verbatim... but one can clearly see they were not written by the same person, or even copied from the same text... that is of course unless the writer decided to reword certain things
im not sure where you heard that... John's gospel had one writer, you can tell by the style of writing... along the same lines of debate. one can clearly tell that revelation was not written by the same author as the gospel of John...
The Gospel of John developed over a period of time in various stages, summarized by Raymond E. Brown as follows:
An initial version based on personal experience of Jesus;
A structured literary creation by the evangelist which draws upon additional sources;
The final harmony that presently exists in the New Testament canon, around 85-90 AD.
In view of this complex and multi-layered history it is meaningless to speak of a single "author" of John, but the title perhaps belongs best to the evangelist who came at the end of this process. The final composition's comparatively late date, and its insistence upon Jesus as a divine being walking the earth in human form, renders it highly problematical to scholars who attempt to evaluate Jesus' life in terms of literal historical truth.
The Canon of the bible has nothing to do with this conversation
- Jesus returns to Jerusalem. Some followers are disappointed that the King doesn't take his place immediately.
- Judas had no need for money as he was the guy with the group funds. Instead, he was hoping that if Jesus was confronted by the soldiers, he would be then provoked into wreaking havoc on the enemies of Israel.
- During the Last Supper, Jesus obviously knows that Judas was to betray him, so tells him to go do what he is going to do.
- Not willing to sit around waiting for arrest, Jesus brings up the topic of defense with his disciples (Luke 22:35-38), and finds that they have 2 swords among them.
- They move off to Gethsemane, having a courtyard with stone walls, outside of the town to be in a better position to defend themselves.
- He places 8 of his remaining disciples to guard the entrance, and Peter and the two "Sons of Thunder" as the inner line of defence with him (Matthew 26:36-38), and then alone, settles to pray for deliverance.
- Jesus gets annoyed at how his disciples KEEP falling asleep. The enemy is able to get through because of this.
- Jesus realises a problem: he had assumed a small jewish rabble, roused up by the Pharisees. Instead, he gets trained Roman soldiers. He tells his disciples to lay down their arms.
- Jesus is taken for trial, and ALL his disciples desert him.
- Jesus was not aware (nor part of) any scheme to get him sacrificed as a "lamb" for all humanity. He gave his defence (John 18:20-23), at the sham of a trial, and certainly did not "opened not his mouth".
- Since the Jews did not have the power to execute, they took him to the Romans, where they tried to get more false charges against him, but again they were proved false (John 18:33-38). The Jews almost attempt blackmailing Pilate, at which point he washes his hands of the affair, and lets Jesus be crucified.
- Jesus was strung up to the cross along with two others (purported to be "zealots" or heroes of the people, rather than theives, as translated by the term used in the Bible- "lestes"). He was not nailed to the cross, but rather, bound like the other two, in the . The "Doubting Thomas" episode is irrelevant, because he wasn't there, as they had all fled.
- Various earthquakes, thundering, etc. occur, which probably clear out the crowd. It was made to appear to the Romans that Jesus was then dead (in just 3 hours), so that breaking his legs became unnecessary. It was so surprising that death occurred so fast that "Pontius marvelled".
- He was then taken down by his "secret" disciples Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, with Marys being the only spectators. The next day was the Sabbath, and the Jews get suspicious as to the speedy removal of Christ from the cross. Pilate does not pander to them.
- Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb on Sunday (not to anoint Jesus or any such thing, but to take care of him, as she knew him to be alive). She finds the tomb opened. She gets worried, and meets Jesus who she does not recognise, because he is disguised as a gardner (to hide from the jews).
- She finally realises who he is, but he asks her to "touch him not", because he isn't "ascended to the Father" (not dead, but in a lot of pain).
- Jesus also meets up with his disciples, who are incredibly fearful and disbelieving, because they think he was crucified (since they had all fled, unlike Mary Magdalene, who was an actual witness, and was thus not afraid when she realised it was Jesus, and not a gardener), and the thing in front of them is a ghost. Jesus continuously assures them he is not resurrected or a spirit, but ALIVE!
It shows how 35% of Luke is unique to Luke, 20% of Matthew is unique to Matthew, and only 3% of Mark is unique to Mark. I'd say that makes the claim "the majority of the text is copied" not incorrect.