How the State Destroys Social Cooperation

I am sure that some of us already know this but, I am a little confused that the lesson appears to be lost on many.

To better inform the proponents of government expansion, I will try to bring some down to earth explanations to spark a conversation on this topic rather than simply rant and rave about the unconstructive intrusion into our lives.

How the State Destroys Social Cooperation

Taxes (including deficits, which are delayed taxes), subsidies, and mandates all illustrate coercion’s progressive undermining of social cooperation. For example, when government raises taxes on income earned by benefiting trading partners, those who provide the benefits earn less over time. In response, those burdened with the new taxes have incentive to do less to benefit others while substituting more effort to avoid taxation.

Moreover, when government mandates employer-provided “free” benefits, employers then reduce other parts of compensation that many workers may actually value more than the mandated benefits, to “pay” for them. Or employers may simply hire fewer workers. We see this already in Obamacare’s mandated increases to employers’ labor costs. Employers have cut jobs and hours (the mandates don’t apply to under-30-hour-per-week workers), or employers squeeze other parts of employee compensation, including on-the-job training, which is a crucial mechanism through which workers learn their way to success.

reply to post by greencmp


Now you just stop it right now. There is no common sense allowed to be spoken on this issue. Why, you might just be racist for even bringing it up!

In all seriousness, your premise is not only true, but can be seen in other areas as well. For example, the seeming disinterest in helping one another....

....humans tend towards a "its someone elses responsibility" mentality. This is made worse when you are told, "Hey, call us. That isn't your responsibility." So we see people pull out their cell phones to video someone getting the holy crap beat out of them, or laying on the third rail of the subway, rather than lending a hand and saving them from pain, death, or both.

We are taxed to provide services. The burden of this tax, combined with the social training by "the authority" that it isn't our responsibility and to leave it to the professionals, are obviously linked with one another.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Indeed, we see it in the decrease in private charity at all levels when people believe that the state has 'taken up the cause'.

It gives the illusion that no personal effort is needed.

reply to post by greencmp


Of course. I pay may taxes, and they get welfare. If not, go apply.

Reminds me of how Tony Soprano used to think it was ok if he beat you up, but then paid for the doctor bill and a nice dinner afterwards. I think a certain degree is sociopathy comes as part of human nature. It is an easily exploited "dark side" we all have to varying degrees.

reply to post by greencmp


Sticking with healthcare as an example, I think more accurately the problem is this... health insurance companies, drug companies and medical supply companies lobby the state with the end result being that healthcare plans become cheapest to buy through employers. It becomes way too expensive for the individual to even consider buying a health care plan... then the economy crashes people lose jobs and their healthcare so once again the health care industries lobby the state and we end up with Obamacare, packaged as universal healthcare when it is anything but.

Corporations buy State interference then it is inflicted on the people.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Of course. I pay may taxes, and they get welfare. If not, go apply

It is not an us and them.. Welfare recipients pay taxes too..Everyone pays taxes..

reply to post by greencmp


So what you're saying is, socialism works...the government just gets in the way. Got it.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Reminds me of how Tony Soprano used to think it was ok if he beat you up, but then paid for the doctor bill and a nice dinner afterwards. I think a certain degree is sociopathy comes as part of human nature. It is an easily exploited "dark side" we all have to varying degrees.

No different from having a bar fight then sharing a drink afterwards. I guess there's a fine line between being a sociopath and getting along violently. As fine as the line is between Texas and Oklahoma, if you catch my drift.

The health care thing? Thank God I'm self-employed and employ the methods you can scrounge up by being that. Like herbal remedies for example. You gotta go sometime, why deplete the bank account by prolonging the inevitable? If you want to live a longer and healthier life when you're 50 then you didn't do things right in the previous 50. If you did then you would be satisfied in going when your time is up.

BTW, can you get a pic of the Blue Ridge Mountains and superimpose the Bronco's logo over it for me? When I grow up I want to have an identity crisis just like you.

reply to post by links234

So what you're saying is, socialism works...the government just gets in the way. Got it.

No, that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that charity works and it is being undermined by false conclusions based on misinformation propaganda about the success of social welfare.

Furthermore, the majority of the resources devoted to social services are consumed by administrative costs. The true beneficiaries of the welfare system are the welfare employees.

reply to post by purplemer

It is not an us and them.. Welfare recipients pay taxes too..Everyone pays taxes..

I am not sure if you understand. Welfare comes out of taxpayer dollars. If they take some back, you haven't contributed to the tax base. Indeed, it could be (and probably should be) argued that taxing a needs-based entitlement is self-defeating.

It is us and them.

'Us', the people of the United States of America vs 'them', the administrators of social welfare programs.

You may want to realign yourself with the us, we would be happy to have you back.

reply to post by Kali74


Corporate cronyism is yet another caveat associated with increased regulatory power which can be and is bought and used to establish and defend monopolies.

Health insurance and pharmaceutical companies being stunningly overt examples as they were the primary lobbyists for the ACA (though we were led to believe they were fighting it).

reply to post by greencmp


Sorry my friend I do not think it is you that understands..

The vilification of the common man is rife on MSM. MSM is fast to point out benefit cheats types as if these people are responsible for the destruction of the economy.. My friend the common struggling man is not the one you should vilify. It is the banking cartel that has just robbed your country of trillions.

It is not an us and them. People on benefits pay tax too. You pay tax every-time you go to the shop and by your food and petrol. If you want to point to those that pay little or no tax look no further than the large corporations and banks..

At the moment they have you just where they want you and it is simply divide and rule

Originally posted by greencmp
reply to post by links234

 

So what you're saying is, socialism works...the government just gets in the way. Got it.

No, that isn't what I am saying. I am saying that charity works and it is being undermined by false conclusions based on misinformation propaganda about the success of social welfare.

This is pure make believe and fantasy. If you have done any volunteering in any kind of charity on a meaningful level you would not being saying this. Cutting Social Welfare programs would infact negatively impact charities providing those same services and simply overwhelm them. The fact is these programs exist because charity while a wonderful thing simply does not have the resources. And if social welfare spending was cut and people got those taxes, they would not generally be giving more to charity. If anything they would probably give less as they started simply spending more on consumer goods.

Originally posted by greencmp
reply to post by Kali74

 

Corporate cronyism is yet another caveat associated with increased regulatory power which can be and is bought and used to establish and defend monopolies.

Health insurance and pharmaceutical companies being stunningly overt examples as they were the primary lobbyists for the ACA (though we were led to believe they were fighting it).

edit on 8-9-2013 by greencmp because: (no reason given)

Not increased regulatory power, negligent regulatory power or intentionally written with loopholes. That kind of happens when corporations get to write the regulations and then get appointed to the oversight committee's or when politicians are promised lobby or consulting positions when their time in office is up.

reply to post by purplemer

You pay tax every-time you go to the shop and by your food and petrol.

It sounds like we are in agreement on taxes being a deterrent to constructive trade at least. There is also a markup associated with increased regulation since increased overhead is always passed on to the consumer. Still, if you got your money from welfare, you didn't pay taxes as such. You just gave some of your allowance back to your parents.

My friend the common struggling man is not the one you should vilify. It is the banking cartel that has just robbed your country of trillions.

Again, we agree. Banks have made out like bandits through the bailout. Companies that should have gone out of business were saved with money from the common struggling man, you and me. What did they do with that money? They eliminated their only viable competition.

reply to post by KeliOnyx

If you have done any volunteering in any kind of charity on a meaningful level you would not being saying this.

Wow , I get the impression that you don't think you can be charitable without the state telling you how and what you can do. Better not walk little old ladies across the street or donate your old clothes to the needy, leave it to the professionals.

reply to post by Kali74

Not increased regulatory power, negligent regulatory power or intentionally written with loopholes. That kind of happens when corporations get to write the regulations and then get appointed to the oversight committee's or when politicians are promised lobby or consulting positions when their time in office is up.

Sorry if I am a bit confused, I think you are agreeing with me here. I am certainly not disagreeing with you.

You may never guess... but this quote is from Ronald Reagan. It must have been before getting in office, on the campaign trail, it's pretty accurate.

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."

greencmp
Wow

, I get the impression that you don't think you can be charitable without the state telling you how and what you can do. Better not walk little old ladies across the street or donate your old clothes to the needy, leave it to the professionals.

Then your impression would be wrong, and your reading comprehension needs improvement if that was the impression you got. So now that we established that why would anyone take anything you have to say seriously?

It is one thing to simply be "charitable". It is another to know what is going on inside the charity. Anyone can just show up a couple days a week and serve food, or sort and fold clothes or whatever. The thing is the more involved you actually get in whatever charity it is you are participating in, it becomes abundantly clear that the charity system just can't simply keep up with the demands put on it. If you remove Government programs and subsidies designed to help the poor you will not encourage more people to be charitable, you will put even more strain on the charity system.

It isn't anything personal against you. You laid out a series of thoughts that in an ideal world would be downright lovely, but you like every other government can't do anything right poster on this board does. You simply forgot to account for human nature.

reply to post by Taupin Desciple


First, the Great Texan Joke:

"Do you know why Texas doesn't slide into the Gulf? Because Oklahoma sucks."

Now, on with the show!

Two guys taking part in a brawl....that isn't the same as some dude coming up and beating the holy hell out of you.