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107 year old man killed by SWAT team in Arkansas

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posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 09:29 PM
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I am not arguing if its a horrible or heart breaking situation. No one wins and multiple families lose.

To this point the information that has been released shows this man fired multiple times on police and they tried at least 2 different non-lethal ways to defuse it. Show me other stories or facts indicating something different and I will certainly blame the police like most of the folks on this thread want.

I will ask again, would the bullets this man have fired done any less damage if they hit someone? Lets say he hits a cop in the head and it kills him and lets say that cop is a father..would you have been the one telling his children , "im sorry you father died but it was a brave befuddled old man that shot him so it's ok" .

I wish to god that this man was still alive. I wish to god that whatever caused the police to show up never happened. I wish to god that this man didn't shoot multiple times at the police causing this response.

No one wins in this scenario.




posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by kimish
24 or 107 years old. If you shoot at officers age should not make a difference. Believing otherwise is biased. Remember, officers have families to go home to as well.


most victims of police brutality/execution have families as well
or are you claiming privilege?



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by opethPA
I am not arguing if its a horrible or heart breaking situation. No one wins and multiple families lose.

To this point the information that has been released shows this man fired multiple times on police and they tried at least 2 different non-lethal ways to defuse it. Show me other stories or facts indicating something different and I will certainly blame the police like most of the folks on this thread want.

I will ask again, would the bullets this man have fired done any less damage if they hit someone? Lets say he hits a cop in the head and it kills him and lets say that cop is a father..would you have been the one telling his children , "im sorry you father died but it was a brave befuddled old man that shot him so it's ok" .

I wish to god that this man was still alive. I wish to god that whatever caused the police to show up never happened. I wish to god that this man didn't shoot multiple times at the police causing this response.

No one wins in this scenario.



Hey opethPA:

I wonder, have you been reading ALL my posts, as you will find a few posts back I actually said something very similiar. And then asked a plethora of questions. You are correct, of course, on the surface, But the surface looks pretty bad, too. I don't think we have a clear picture, yet, of what happened here.

As far as the decision by law enforcement to take that tack, generally, that's standard procedure. But is it not a case by case basis? Having said that, I agree totally and completely had he shot a cop in the head with a family or not, it's another tragedy, on top of it. Either way, it totally sucks this thing, and I totally agree with you.

I just wish you would read some of my other posts, bc I made it clear earlier that I was of two minds about this, so to speak, for the police must live to go home, as well......
Sincerely, and I hear you,
Tetra



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by tetra50
Hey opethPA:

I wonder, have you been reading ALL my posts, as you will find a few posts back I actually said something very similiar. And then asked a plethora of questions. You are correct, of course, on the surface, But the surface looks pretty bad, too. I don't think we have a clear picture, yet, of what happened here.

As far as the decision by law enforcement to take that tack, generally, that's standard procedure. But is it not a case by case basis? Having said that, I agree totally and completely had he shot a cop in the head with a family or not, it's another tragedy, on top of it. Either way, it totally sucks this thing, and I totally agree with you.

I just wish you would read some of my other posts, bc I made it clear earlier that I was of two minds about this, so to speak, for the police must live to go home, as well......
Sincerely, and I hear you,
Tetra


Hi Tetra,

My last post wasn't directed at you in any way and I have read all the posts in this thread, even the ones I don't agree with.

As I ended my last post no one wins in this horrible story but the facts ,as they have been reported to this point, indicate that the old man fired multiple times on the cops and if the cops on site felt their life was at risk , as I said bullets fired from a 107 year old person will kill just as well, then I don't know what the expected response should have been.

People can call me a LEO apologist which is ridiculous. I look at the facts as they are presented and try and make a logical statement. Are their horrible, corrupt, overzealous, militarized police everywhere in the world, 100% yes. Are their horrible, corrupt , overzealous, militarized citizens (I dont believe the old man was this) everywhere in the wold , 100% yes.

Until I see something indicating this man didn't shoot at multiple people then I'll just agree to disagree with the people that don't think he did anything wrong.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 10:15 PM
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reply to post by opethPA
 


opethPA:

You are dead on with this. We don't have all the facts, and because of his age and status as a veteran, it SEEMS horrifying. But I have questions, just like you. On the whole, I support the police, allowing for all you mention in your post about over militarization of them.....and other factors, Patriot Act influenced....but cops I've known dislike this as much as we, civilians, do......And you are speaking to someone who has suffered at the hands of policemen, called nasty names, and handcuffed so tight I bled, considerably, not just a little.

But I am sympathetic, always, to their plight and job, for they are sandwiched between the PTB and the public, and often, take the brunt of it, therefore.

I wish we could have all these other questions answered, really.

And meanwhile, I'm a little stuck on the NK prison camp thread....it haunts me, beyond all this.....for that it truly a waste and abuse of all life, and no one is doing anything. My point is, the world is apparently going steadfastly crazy, in all realms, and I don't know what can be done about any of it, as I sit here, at my "confuser," and try to think my caring to know makes some kind of difference...... Sorry, to get off topic...
Tetra
edit on 8-9-2013 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 10:53 PM
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reply to post by tetra50
 


I am with you bro on all of your questions and many more.

ATS used to have a member Generated Response Team for Journalism around the world. I think funding got cut and it is no longer a go, but for situations that will arise in the next years it would be great if we could get private sponsors to once again make that possible.

Eyes and ears in the field, to discover the truth out there and to report what msm is not allowed to, will not do.

With as many hits as this story has garnered from the WWW, this story if not shoved to the bottomless pits will rise to answer what everyone who has collectively asked since this tragic story unfolded.

This feels personal even though I do not know the 107 year old man who became so disparaged by his circumstances that he made terrifying decisions at the end of his life. You do not live to be 107 without the desire to live, the desire to make a difference and to make your life count in positive ways.

Like I keep stating, the msm outlets have all reported this in the exact same fashion, using the same words and the same description, accusations rather than the Constitutional language normally used starting with "Alleged" Several of the reports even stated in the beginning that it was not certain who fired the first shots.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by antar
reply to post by tetra50
 


I am with you bro on all of your questions and many more.

ATS used to have a member Generated Response Team for Journalism around the world. I think funding got cut and it is no longer a go, but for situations that will arise in the next years it would be great if we could get private sponsors to once again make that possible.

Eyes and ears in the field, to discover the truth out there and to report what msm is not allowed to, will not do.

With as many hits as this story has garnered from the WWW, this story if not shoved to the bottomless pits will rise to answer what everyone who has collectively asked since this tragic story unfolded.

This feels personal even though I do not know the 107 year old man who became so disparaged by his circumstances that he made terrifying decisions at the end of his life. You do not live to be 107 without the desire to live, the desire to make a difference and to make your life count in positive ways.

Like I keep stating, the msm outlets have all reported this in the exact same fashion, using the same words and the same description, accusations rather than the Constitutional language normally used starting with "Alleged" Several of the reports even stated in the beginning that it was not certain who fired the first shots.





And I, too, am with you SISTER, for I am no bro. but no matter. Yes, it would be a great thing if there were some "independent" news monitor, via ATS or some other organization, just to check questions we have such as with this, or other happenings many of us end up wondering if they are staged or not.
You wrote a good thread, regardless, and made us all think and interact with one another around our thinking. This, in and of itself, is the essence of what will save us, I believe, as a species...JMHO.
thanks, Antar.
Tetra



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 11:28 PM
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Here's what I would have liked to see personally.

Have the house and nearby houses evacuated/cordoned off. Stick camera under door to make sure no one else is in danger in the room (you never know). Park Something in front of the window so the guy can't start firing out of it putting people at risk. Let the negotiators do their job, even if they are doing miserably. Give him some food and water and show some kindness and wait for him to settle down. If after 24 hours he's still all crotchety gas him from a safe place where you can't get shot.

At some point you have to make entry, but I don't think it needs to be done with such haste. Especially not when dealing with someone who isn't going to be hopping out a window and escaping.

End of the day it's a real sad story. I think it's a training issue. I am tired of everyone acting like the police are all bloodthirsty nutjobs bent on killing at the slightest provocation. There may be some sickos that would like to go all Rambo on some crazy drug dealer, but I HIGHLY doubt anyone present was lusting over the chance to kill a 107 year old veteran.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 11:31 PM
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A final thought of the day before I retire for the evening:

In most cases such as this, the msm hounds the alleged victims, yes I said alleged victims. But in this case no reports or public information has come forward, no reports from neighbors or witnesses, no friends or grieving family.

It was if they were carted off from inside the home and taken to a secure location. Plenty of time to create or distort what will eventually be the cover story on this tragic event.

Normally when a person is aged and want to remain in their homes rather than a convalescent hospital, they have either friends or family members move in with them. These people are the ones who take the vow of caretaker and the responsible party in all matters pertaining to the persons well being and safety.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by tetra50
 


I was wondering about calling you Bro, my kids all call me bro when I am in good standing...



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by antar
reply to post by tetra50
 


I was wondering about calling you Bro, my kids all call me bro when I am in good standing...

LOLOLOL, really.... there was a time when I was younger and had younger children when this was true for me, as well. Thanks for reminding me of that.
Yours,
Tetra



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 01:05 AM
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reply to post by antar
 


Would you advocate your child going in and asking the kind old man to surrender? No? Then your post is hate filled drivel.



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by antar
 


Would you advocate your child going in and asking the kind old man to surrender? No? Then your post is hate filled drivel.


That's pretty strong, Occam, and pretty much the "hate filled drivel" you espouse and are projecting, at the same time. I wouldn't advocate my child being used in any scenario whatsoever, and if you would, then you are willing to use your children in ways no parent likely should.

Would I advocate myself to do what you say: absolutely, and I think that is a more 'balanced," if you will, question.
I understand you might be having strong reactions to said thread, but I ask you and wonder, what in the world would you advocate "using" your children for to prove any point at all, that makes sense, or would be acceptable, at all, ever?????
Tetra



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 01:10 AM
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Perhaps to make your point, it would be better to find another metaphor or allegorical situation than that to be taken realistically, without seeming to be unbalanced, yourself, and I mean you no disrespect......but re-read what you have written, and think what that sounds like you would be willing to use your children for.....yourself



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by antar
This man was killed for pointing a gun at 2 people and then locking himself in his room!


This is not true.

First , you need to forget about this man's age. It is having an emotional effect on your judgement.

This is a man who threatened to shoot two people. Have you ever had a gun pointed at you and been told your about to die?

The people he did this to felt threatened. They sought help. When the help arrived he actually fired his weapon at them.

The police officers came to aid people who were threatened. They were fired upon.

The man who died had plenty of time to put down his weapon. After he threatened the people he could have put down the weapon. When the officers arrived he could have put down his weapon. Instead the situation was escalated and he fired his weapon.

He had choices.

It is possible he was tired of living and wanted out.

What if your dad or mom or your child arrived at this scene as police officer. What if they asked the man to put down his gun. Then the man fires at your dad or mom or your child. Then your dad or mom or child needs to end the situation and kicks in the door to find a gun pointing at them. What should they do? Take a bullet to the head? How do you feel about this man now that he just killed your dad or mom or child?



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 02:14 AM
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This is such a surreal case for a few reasons-firstly the age of the elderly gent-its pretty unusual for anyone to reach that age in the 1st place-but then this man grew up on healthier food,cleaner air+i bet,a Helluva lot of exercise,also he must have kept active,physically and mentally,to reach this age-a remarkable feat-you don't get to age 107 by being an idiot,I'm sure.

I did'nt comment yesterday,cause I was waiting to see if any info would turn up on the 2 people allegedly shot at?But I see there's still no info.It could be that it was relatives who wanted him to move to a care facility,who somehow had the clout to make sure their privacy is preserved in this matter? That is one possibility-if that's not it,it could be anything,so really one would need that side of this story to get a better picture.

In America now it appears(at least from reading this site)that unarmed people,even the elderly regularly get killed by cops-so with him firing shots,there was never going to be a good outcome to this.
To me this whole thing sounds surreal,it does.
One thing I'm sure of-there was a better way to deal with this.and some members suggested ways too-only thing is,it would have taken time+finesse to have ended this stand-off in a way that would have provided the highest likelihood of a better outcome for the elderly guy.
Depends I guess,whether you want to take the time,get hold of a negotiator who could find a connection to the old guy,and have maybe eventually defused the situation.
Difficult situations take time.finesse,thinking on your feet,sometimes mental acrobatics.But for the possibility of a good outcome for all involved,you have to not be in a rush-that is the worst obstacle.Clear heads,calm analytical minds.
What was he gonna be doing locked in there anyway,what harm to society,he did'nt even have a single hostage,plan WW3 perhaps? Oh wait..
Jeez what next,eh?



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by opethPA
I am not arguing if its a horrible or heart breaking situation. No one wins and multiple families lose.

To this point the information that has been released shows this man fired multiple times on police and they tried at least 2 different non-lethal ways to defuse it. Show me other stories or facts indicating something different and I will certainly blame the police like most of the folks on this thread want.

I will ask again, would the bullets this man have fired done any less damage if they hit someone? Lets say he hits a cop in the head and it kills him and lets say that cop is a father..would you have been the one telling his children , "im sorry you father died but it was a brave befuddled old man that shot him so it's ok" .

I wish to god that this man was still alive. I wish to god that whatever caused the police to show up never happened. I wish to god that this man didn't shoot multiple times at the police causing this response.

No one wins in this scenario.



@ non lethal ways to put this potentially innocent man in chains, and drah him away to a cerll, like an animal, for crimes he may not have even commited.

I would have fought as well.

Lets see here.......

2 ungrateful grandkids, want to usurp gramps house, they come in taking his stuff, he tells them to leave, they get physical, he goes and gets is gun, they call the cops and claim to be victims, the law only cares about draggin someone anyone away in chains, and locking them in a cage, doesnt even matter to them if it is the right guy or not, they will just chain and lock up him also if they catch him.

The point is, Americans are not suppossed to have to worry about that at all ever, unless it is clearly warranted.

These days, it is chain drag away incarcerate, then determine if they even deserved it to begin with.

"oh sorry we treated you like a rabid pit bull, better safe than sorry" " well, for us, not you obviously, but you dont matter, only our safety matters."

As for the "bullets doing the same damage no matter the age of the person firing them" line.

How m,any bullets do the average cop vs. the average guy fire in one of these?

Guy fires 3 maybe even 5, cops fire 60+......ya but the LEOs bullets dont count right, because they have "training" and they dont miss....Oh wait their target hit rate is like 6%....NVM then!!!?????


WTF is wrong with you?



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by lacrimaererum

Originally posted by antar
This man was killed for pointing a gun at 2 people and then locking himself in his room!


This is not true.

First , you need to forget about this man's age. It is having an emotional effect on your judgement.

This is a man who threatened to shoot two people. Have you ever had a gun pointed at you and been told your about to die?

The people he did this to felt threatened. They sought help. When the help arrived he actually fired his weapon at them.

The police officers came to aid people who were threatened. They were fired upon.

The man who died had plenty of time to put down his weapon. After he threatened the people he could have put down the weapon. When the officers arrived he could have put down his weapon. Instead the situation was escalated and he fired his weapon.

He had choices.

It is possible he was tired of living and wanted out.

What if your dad or mom or your child arrived at this scene as police officer. What if they asked the man to put down his gun. Then the man fires at your dad or mom or your child. Then your dad or mom or child needs to end the situation and kicks in the door to find a gun pointing at them. What should they do? Take a bullet to the head? How do you feel about this man now that he just killed your dad or mom or child?


The police have as much time as they need, they should have used it.

Not like 107 year old man is going to wait them out, he doesnt have alot of time as it is.......

They went in like usual, to end the situation by force as fast as possible, just like the modern SOP.

Use of any and all force is justified these days if anyone doesnt automatically comply, which is complete crap.
edit on 9-9-2013 by oblvion because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 07:32 AM
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Lets say he hits a cop in the head and it kills him and lets say that cop is a father..would you have been the one telling his children , "im sorry you father died but it was a brave befuddled old man that shot him so it's ok" .


We don't see the police making statements about being saddened by killing people who didn't deserve being killed by police.

"What did you doing at work daddy?" "Me and the team killed a 107 YO man. Hey, he could barely get around and his aim was terrible.Piece a cake to take him out. haha"



posted on Sep, 9 2013 @ 07:37 AM
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it doesnt matter how old you are or what your situation is.

cops lives are more valuable and important than yours.




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