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Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake - PART 2

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posted on Mar, 19 2014 @ 05:26 PM
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BGTM90

Alekto

BGTM90
reply to post by Alekto
 


So you are just going to totally ignore the fact that I stated that totally disproves your nuclear is safer than coal theory?


clclt.com...

Just two hours ago. Coal pollution. Hot off the press, grab it while you can.

Always happy to help :-)


That article in no way refutes what I stated. I already said coal is not a good power source. What I did say was coal does not have the potential to make entire contents uninhabitable. If you can give me a way that could happened with a coal fired (Or any other for that matter) I might have a change of mind but if your going to keep ignoring and side stepping the fact because it doesn't find into your nuclear power is great image that I have nothing els to say.


That poster has a track record of repeatedly ignoring facts, misquoting, not responding to questions, making issues about non issues and continuously trying to derail the topic of this thread - is a classic textbook case. I am totally with you about nuclear being worse than coal any day... the whole industry sucks and spends big bucks to snow job everyone and cover their incompetent and corrupt butts.




posted on Mar, 19 2014 @ 05:44 PM
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[as per member request]
edit on 3/19/2014 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 19 2014 @ 08:02 PM
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wishes

BGTM90

Alekto

BGTM90
reply to post by Alekto
 


So you are just going to totally ignore the fact that I stated that totally disproves your nuclear is safer than coal theory?


clclt.com...

Just two hours ago. Coal pollution. Hot off the press, grab it while you can.

Always happy to help :-)


That article in no way refutes what I stated. I already said coal is not a good power source. What I did say was coal does not have the potential to make entire contents uninhabitable. If you can give me a way that could happened with a coal fired (Or any other for that matter) I might have a change of mind but if your going to keep ignoring and side stepping the fact because it doesn't find into your nuclear power is great image that I have nothing els to say.


That poster has a track record of repeatedly ignoring facts, misquoting, not responding to questions, making issues about non issues and continuously trying to derail the topic of this thread - is a classic textbook case. I am totally with you about nuclear being worse than coal any day... the whole industry sucks and spends big bucks to snow job everyone and cover their incompetent and corrupt butts.


Well the best remedy for that is just ignore him, if he continues to post one line statements that are just by passing the topic of discussion just pretend he hasn't said anything and move on.



posted on Mar, 20 2014 @ 04:47 AM
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Purplechive

Purplechive
Unit 3 Spent Fuel Pool Temp Rise

In one month the temp has risen 13.5 Celsius (24.30 Fahrenheit).

Feb. 18, 2014 == 8.6 Celsius (47.48 Fahrenheit):

www.tepco.co.jp...

March 18, 2014 == 22.1 Celsius (71.78 Fahrenheit):

www.tepco.co.jp...

This is a rather significant temp rise for something that had been stable.

If anyone comes across an explanation...sure would appreciate you sharing.

- Purple Chive

edit on 18-3-2014 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)


From Moch:


Debris removal from reactor3 pool is in 4 months delay, Tepco reported to NRA (Nuclear Regulation Authority) this February.

Tepco is in the process to remove debris from around the spent fuel pool of reactor3.

However due to the extremely high level of radiation, it is being behind the schedule.

In the press conference of 3/17/2014, Tepco stated it may be because they suspended the removal when they found the workers severely contaminated possibly due to the emission from reactor3, where is over 500m away from the workers. They also stopped removing when they observed the “steam” coming up from the top of the building last summer. They also had to stop operation when the crane was significantly damaged, which the reason has not been identified yet.


fukushima-diary.com...

And Unit 3 SFP temp suddenly drops a dramatic 3.3 degrees from 22.1 to 19.8....

www.tepco.co.jp...

- Purple Chive


OK folks now it rapidly has dropped to 16.7....so they turned something either back on or off...or used enough duct tape!!

Would be curious if in any of the reports they mention...oh by the way we had this rather significant cooling problem with Unit 3 SFP...

Anyhow...guess it keeps us on our toes.

www.tepco.co.jp...

- Purple Chive



posted on Mar, 20 2014 @ 11:01 AM
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Please remember that this thread is about the ongoing disaster at Fukushima Daichii.

If you feel the overwhelming desire to discuss nuclear energy vs coal or other types of energy, please make a new thread in the appropriate forum to discuss this issue.... discussing it here only serves the purpose to derail the original thread and the divert the topic.

Have a nice radiation free day!!!




posted on Mar, 20 2014 @ 11:25 AM
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@ PurpleChive - I just checked out the Fukushima-Diary yesterday and noticed that report - thanks for posting.
@ JadedAndCynical - great information - thanks!
@ BGTMNO - yes, agreed
Thanks to everyone for their continued digging and contributions!

Also from Fukushima-Diary it seems Mochizuki has found a forgotten treaty with the Netherlands that could be an 'opening' for Japanese evacuees to jump into the Netherlands without a lot of red tape! Talk about a trail blazer! Way to go Mochizuki!


I just found what I was exactly looking for in Netherlands
Back in 1912, Japan and Netherlands made a special treaty, which may change how Japanese live in 100 years from then. With that treaty, Japanese people can obtain visa with some advanced conditions. This is very based in their trading history for centuries. Netherlands was the only western country to trade with Japan from 17 th to 19 th centry until the last revolution. It became valid in 1960s after WW2 but it was forgotten in the dust of history almost completely. When this 100 years old international treaty was revived was only 4 years ago. I’m seeing a chance in this juridical “glitch”, so I came to Netherlands.

fukushima-diary.com...

From Fairewinds...


As the eyes of the world have been focused on the Unit 4’s removal of spent fuel, TEPCO released a report entitled, TEPCO’s Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant Roadmap, that contained some astounding information regarding Unit 3. Follow Fairewinds Energy’s Arnie Gundersen as he shows you the 35-ton refueling bridge that fell in the Unit 3 spent fuel pool during the Unit 3 detonation explosion. Do the math. The bottom line here is that TEPCO has just acknowledged that at least 50-tons of rubble has fallen on top of and into the spent fuel pool in Unit 3. What does this 50-ton pile of debris mean to the Unit 3 spent fuel pool and its cleanup?
Then there is a link to a document that requires translation.
fairewinds.org...


TEPCO is behaving as though it is the victim of the largest industrial accident in the history of time rather than the perpetrator. Fairewinds Energy Education’s Arnie Gundersen analyzes new leaks at Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 and discusses TEPCO’s negligence in not applying engineering rigor to its analysis of the leaks.

Fairewinds speech at the New York Academy of Medicine titled "What Did They Known And When? Before and After The Meltdowns
fairewinds.org...

edit on 20-3-2014 by wishes because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 21 2014 @ 12:17 AM
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Fukushima water decontamination possibly suspended indefinitely.


Treatment of radioactive water at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant might be indefinitely suspended after malfunctions crippled the water purification process and recontaminated thousands of tons of partially purified water, Japanese media report. The failure in the system, known as the Advanced Liquid Processing System (ALPS), is the latest setback in Tokyo Electric Power Co.’s (TEPCO) uphill battle to stockpile radioactive water, which is ballooning at a rate of 400 tons per day. TEPCO said up to 900 tons of water, which had not been sufficiently cleaned in the ALPS equipment, flowed into a network of 21 tanks that were holding 15,000 tons of treated water. Not only have the 21 tanks been rendered unusable, but all 15,000 tons of previously cleaned water will now have to be retreated. While efforts are underway to measure the full extent of the contamination, TEPCO officials said the problem was not noticed prior to March 18 because no abnormalities were detected in water sampled on March 14, Japan’s Asashi Shimbun daily reports. “We never expected radioactive water to flow into the storage tanks,” Masayuki Ono, acting general manager of TEPCO’s Nuclear Power & Plant Siting Division, told the paper. “We should have been better prepared. We have no idea how long it will take to clean them if we decided to do so.”


alternateviewpoint.net...


More bad news as the comedy of errors otherwise known as Tepco continues.

I said it before and I will say it again.... they are going to dump untreated water into the ocean. Its becoming a logistical nightmare with no other possible ending. They could only filter 200 tons a day (who knows how long the system will be shut down this time).... they are collecting 400 tons a day. They can't keep doing this forever.


edit on R192014-03-21T00:19:26-05:00k193Vam by RickinVa because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 22 2014 @ 06:01 AM
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reply to post by wishes
 


Thanks Wishes. No explanation from TEPCO about Unit 3 SFP significant temp rise to 22.1 and then sudden drop to 13.4

www.tepco.co.jp...

And all water treatment stopped.

Sigh...

FUBAR...and ineptitude running rampant.

Three years...and no end in site.

- Purple Chive



posted on Mar, 22 2014 @ 06:21 AM
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Muon Detection of Nuclear Fuel

The technology exists to locate the molten cores and other places nuclear fuel scattered but TEPCO probably won't use it.

rt.com...

It is difficult to fathom that this should be TEPCO's decision to make. It should be imperative for the "decommissioning" plan to locate all the fuel ASAP.

However, it probably would cause too much "distress" and reveal many things that TEPCO does not want exposed.

- Purple Chive



posted on Mar, 22 2014 @ 11:36 AM
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Purplechive
Muon Detection of Nuclear Fuel

The technology exists to locate the molten cores and other places nuclear fuel scattered but TEPCO probably won't use it.

rt.com...

It is difficult to fathom that this should be TEPCO's decision to make. It should be imperative for the "decommissioning" plan to locate all the fuel ASAP.

However, it probably would cause too much "distress" and reveal many things that TEPCO does not want exposed.

- Purple Chive



For what it's worth, I don't believe Tepco is really in charge of anything - I think they get 'their orders' from above their heads and are left to be the face of the disaster and make PR moves. The lack of effort and "comedy" of errors to truly deal with this is so apparent to anyone who can see. Yes, 'why' isn't it a global effort like looking for that lost airliner or helping the stranded whales years back? We got psychopaths running the show IMHO.

I have no idea why they haven't built a deep pit to put the water into by now and let the earth deal with the radiation like they do for other processing plants - I think they call them 'tailings ponds'. Anything is better than the ocean. In three years they could have made several to hold millions of gallons. But I think we can all guess the end result - just dump it into the ocean, who cares. Too much problem to actually do the right thing(s).



posted on Mar, 22 2014 @ 11:39 AM
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Question for those of you who understand radiation - why can't they "freeze" all the rods with something like liquid nitrogen? Wouldn't that stop their emissions and all this need to radiate water trying to cool them?



posted on Mar, 23 2014 @ 01:04 PM
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370,000 becquerels per kilogram in soil....


Radiation high in Fukushima reservoirs
State and local government officials say they have detected radioactive substances exceeding government safety limits in soil at the bottom of agricultural dams and reservoirs in Fukushima Prefecture.

The agriculture ministry and the Fukushima prefectural government found 8,000 becquerels or more per kilogram of radioactive substances in 568 out of the 1,940 dams and reservoirs they inspected between last June and December.

108 were in the evacuation zones around the Fukushima Daiichi power plant, and 460 were further away.

Officials detected 370,000 becquerels per kilogram in the soil of a reservoir 58 kilometers away from the plant.

It is the highest reading so far recorded outside the evacuation zones, and more than 46 times the government limit of 8,000 becquerels for radioactive waste.

The state government is obliged to dispose of radioactive waste beyond this limit.

Prefectural officials say rain may have carried radioactive substances into the waters from surrounding forests.

Water from the reservoir with the highest reading outside the evacuation zones is being used for rice paddies nearby. But officials say they have not found radiation levels exceeding food safety limits in locally-produced rice, probably because radioactive substances in the soil barely dissolve in water.

The head of an association of residents says officials have told them they will not be exposed to radiation as long as there is water in the reservoir.

But he says they fear radioactive levels may surge if it dries up. He is urging the state government to address the problem as soon as possible.
Mar. 22, 2014 - Updated 15:51 UTC


www3.nhk.or.jp...

Mind boggling.

On edit...November 25, 2011:

ajw.asahi.com...

- Purple Chive
edit on 23-3-2014 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:08 AM
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Crane Stops Fuel Removal Unit 4



Trouble stops fuel removal at Fukushima plant

The work to remove nuclear fuel from a storage pool at a reactor building in the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant has been suspended due to a problematic crane.

Tokyo Electric Power Company said the issue occurred at around 9:30 AM on Wednesday, when workers started removing fuel units at the No.4 reactor building. The utility explained a large crane used to hoist a cask containing fuel units set off an alarm and stopped.

TEPCO added that the crane stopped before lifting the cask, and that no rise in radiation levels has been observed around the storage pool.

Workers are now trying to find out what caused the problem.
TEPCO began removing fuel units from the storage pool of the No.4 reactor in November of last year. The pool holds 1,533 units of fuel, of which 1,331 are highly radioactive spent fuel.

As of Tuesday, 550 fuel units had been removed and transferred to another storage pool.
Mar. 26, 2014 - Updated 05:18 UTC


www3.nhk.or.jp...

Also noticed that Unit 4 SFP temp went up to 18.7 Celsius...

www.tepco.co.jp...

Has not been that warm since Jan. 2, 2014:

www.tepco.co.jp...

Hopefully it is just the crane that is a problem...

- Purple Chive



posted on Mar, 26 2014 @ 06:31 AM
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Radioactive Materials in the Seawater < Offshore of Miyagi Prefecture

Many of the samplings have trended upward...

www.tepco.co.jp...

Prior samplings:

www.tepco.co.jp...

- Purple Chive
edit on 26-3-2014 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 27 2014 @ 05:02 AM
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Purplechive
Crane Stops Fuel Removal Unit 4



Trouble stops fuel removal at Fukushima plant

The work to remove nuclear fuel from a storage pool at a reactor building in the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant has been suspended due to a problematic crane.

Tokyo Electric Power Company said the issue occurred at around 9:30 AM on Wednesday, when workers started removing fuel units at the No.4 reactor building. The utility explained a large crane used to hoist a cask containing fuel units set off an alarm and stopped.

TEPCO added that the crane stopped before lifting the cask, and that no rise in radiation levels has been observed around the storage pool.

Workers are now trying to find out what caused the problem.
TEPCO began removing fuel units from the storage pool of the No.4 reactor in November of last year. The pool holds 1,533 units of fuel, of which 1,331 are highly radioactive spent fuel.

As of Tuesday, 550 fuel units had been removed and transferred to another storage pool.
Mar. 26, 2014 - Updated 05:18 UTC


www3.nhk.or.jp...

Also noticed that Unit 4 SFP temp went up to 18.7 Celsius...

www.tepco.co.jp...

Has not been that warm since Jan. 2, 2014:

www.tepco.co.jp...

Hopefully it is just the crane that is a problem...

- Purple Chive




The utility explained a large crane used to hoist a cask containing 22 spent fuel units from the storage pool suddenly halted before lifting the cask. Workers were attaching a hook to the crane's wire at that time.


www3.nhk.or.jp...

Does anyone know if water still gets circulated around the 22 spent fuel units while they are stuck in the cask? I guess the cask is still underwater...so that's good...just wondering what the water temp is inside the cask? If the cask gets too hot inside does it explode?

Would be very appreciative of any thoughts on this matter.

- Purple Chive



posted on Mar, 27 2014 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by wishes
 


That is a great question. If you don't get an answer here, send an e-mail to Arnie Gundersen at Fairewinds.org and someone will get that question to Arnie.

In the meantime, here's a manga from a Japanese new author who has already received an award for his account of his experiences as a Fukushima dai-ichi nuclear disaster recovery worker in 2012. It's interesting:

www.seattlepi.com...



posted on Mar, 27 2014 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by Uphill
 


Wishes, in addition to the above post:

Bob Alvarez, a former energy policy analyst at the US Department of Energy and an expert on storage options with spent nuclear fuel, is now a regular columnist for The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. Here's his first essay:

thebulletin.org...

I left a question on Facebook with Bob Alvarez just now regarding the use of freezing technology for spent nuclear fuel; we'll see what he says.



posted on Mar, 28 2014 @ 09:43 AM
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wishes
Question for those of you who understand radiation - why can't they "freeze" all the rods with something like liquid nitrogen? Wouldn't that stop their emissions and all this need to radiate water trying to cool them?


While I am no expert on the nuclear aspects of liquid nitrogen cooling of the nuclear material itself, here are a few things I do know.

1 - I doubt that enough liquid nitrogen could be obtained to properly cool the fuel rods. Remember, the rod are not just hot but they are highly radioactive and continuing to generate massive amounts of heat and will continue to do so for months, if not years, to come. So just freezing the rods will not be enough. Provisions for continuous removal of the newly generated heat by supplying more LN coolant would be needed. While water is not as cold it is almost infinitely more available than LN and has an acceptable ability to remove heat efficiently.

2 - Liquid nitrogen is extremely cold and expensive to make. Under normal atmospheric pressure, nitrogen can exist as a liquid between the temperatures of 63 K and 77.2 K (-346°F and -320.44°F). Below 63 K, nitrogen freezes and becomes a solid. Above 77.2 K, nitrogen boils and becomes a gas.

Since it is obtained from the atmosphere, liquid nitrogen is inexpensive and is rarely refrigerated. It is kept in insulated containers called Dewars and is allowed to boil away. Since it is boiling, most of the liquid nitrogen used in laboratories and in cryogenics shows is at a temperature of 77.2 K.

3 - At a temperature of negative 320 degrees there would certainly be structural damage to the containment pool walls and the fuel rods themselves. Any moisture in the concrete walls would freeze and fracture the concrete. Then you would have the problem of embrittlement of anything that frigid, thus weakening it structurally, and this includes the casings of the fuel rods. And finally; there would be the problem of differential shrinkage of different materials. If the fuel rod casings shrank more than the fuel itself it would cause the casings to rupture just like a frozen water bottle.

4 - While I am not fully up to speed on the chemistry of liquid nitrogen I would also be concerned about possible chemical reactions between the LN and any material in the pool it would come into contact with.

5 - Liquid nitrogen expands to a gas from the liquid state. The amount of liquid nitrogen being used would cause a very real danger of asphyxiation as the nitrogen gas boils off the liquid nitrogen and pools around the buildings. It only takes 28 grams of liquid nitrogen to displace 22.4 liters of air at standard temperature and pressure. The fact that you are asphyxiating is masked by your ability to exhale carbon dioxide normally, so the burning sensation you experience when holding your breath or drowning is absent.

I am sure a real nuclear expert could give more and/or better reasons but I think these will suffice to show that liquid nitrogen cooling of the fuel would be a very bad idea.



posted on Mar, 29 2014 @ 08:13 PM
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see wrabbit2000's post here about the Worker injured during drilling operation at Fukushima Some interesting pics and a drawing of site in PDF (28 mar 2014)

The images show a fairly large hole at the side of the building near the empty container warehouse located in the Solid Waste Storage Warehouse. It appears as if there is a largish void under the building with pipes coming up from below ground.

One worker was buried under earth and had a heart attack



posted on Mar, 30 2014 @ 06:40 AM
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Unit 4 Fuel Removal Resumes



Fuel removal resumes at Fukushima plant
The operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant says it has resumed the process of removing spent fuel from one of the crippled reactors.

On Wednesday, an alarm suddenly activated and stopped a large crane, as workers were preparing to hoist a cask containing fuel assemblies from the pool at the No. 4 reactor building.

Tokyo Electric Power Company found that a worker had mistakenly operated the crane without releasing an auxiliary brake, causing it to become overloaded.

The problem was fixed, and the removal work resumed at noon on Sunday.

This was the first suspension of the operation since TEPCO started removing fuel units from the pool in the building last November. The utility is removing the fuel assemblies to decommission the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

1,533 fuel units were being stored in the pool at the time of the 2011 accident, and 983 were still there on Sunday.
Mar. 30, 2014 - Updated 08:26 UTC


www3.nhk.or.jp...

Great explanation HappyKat about liquid nitrogen!

- Purple Chive



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