In comparison to what?. Western countries?.

Comparing apples and oranges here

LOL, doesn't matter, the Chinese people will want standards of living for themselves, comparable to the West. It is inevitable. They will also want workers rights, such as the ability to form a union.
Most of China's prosperity comes from the fact that there are no workers rights and things are very cheap to produce, once that changes......well if you have any brains you know the rest.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. Workers rights equal no prosperity which equals no growth which equals no threat to america

Like me say one thing. The japanese have union and such but they work a lot longer hours than the west but make roughly comparable money. Have you ever thought its a cultral thing?

Communist china which brings prosperity and has risen nearly every chinese out of the poverty line and nearly 200million chinese middle class workers. 9+% growth rates for 25years. income from 300US in 1979 to 1200 US now. Theres a similar example in south korea.

They had a dictator ship in the earlier years and lead to high growth than later on polictical reforms. The taiwanese were also like this also

Well the bottomline is, The ZY-1 doesn't have a better spatial resolution than 20 meters while the IRS-P6 has one of 5.8 metres. You're comparing the LISS-3 sensor on the P6 with the one with the best resolution on the ZY-1.
Thats a lop-sided comparision aye?
Especially when the LISS-4 onboard the IRS P6 has a 5.8m resolution,more than 3 times better than ANYTHING on the ZY-1. IMO in terms of resolution, the IRS P6 beats the ZY-1 hands down.

Anyways, maybe the ZY-2 series has something better than 20m res, but just beacuse there are 3 in orbit in the last 5 years doesn't meant that you can take educated guesses of "1m" resolution on the latest ones!!
As I said before, the rapid increase number of remote sats launched doesn't indicate technlogical improvement in resolotion, it indicates that the Zy-2 series has a larger surveillance area,understandable since china is taht much larger than India.
Infact I am quite sure that all ZY 2 satellites have VERY similar resolutions, if not exactly the same. Even if they are slightly different the best US estimates(which chinese scientist refute by saying its too high) is about 5 meters. Here they talk about CBERS 1/ZY-1, CBERS 2/ZY-2,CBERS 3/ZY-2 B, aand CBERS 4/ZY-2C, all acutally Sino-Brazillian ventures, so is not completely indegenous also. There's no mention of <=1m resolutions any where. And these educated guesses of yours are coming after you said that IKONOS was the best satellite around, and it doesn't have anything better than 1m!



Source

Infact, this Moscow defense article, claims that "unnamed taiwanese intelligence officers" claim it to be 5m. Russians put it at 10-13meters.
mdb.cast.ru...
If its getting down to be as sinister and secretive as "unnamed taiwanese intelligence officers" to get reports of 5m resolution, then I think thats secretive enough.

So I conclude that your basis for assuming 1m or less resolutions are not correct. Infact you're contradicting yourslef by saying that now!
(reference to IKONOS)

On the other hand,commercial resolutions of CARTOSAT-1 and IRS P6(5.8m and 2.5m respectively) are well documented and publicised. No assumptions here. I could just as easily start speculating about the military resolutions of the latest Indian satellites (and mind you I can prove these speculations to be sound enough).

Infact CARTOSAT-2 (yet to be launched) has a documented res of 1m.

So while you say China is ahead of India in remote sensing, I think that's a big thing to say especially when you're going on educated guesses.

Care to re-assess your claims?

To the victor, comes the spoils... How do you think the United States expanded from "sea to shining sea"? The Americans invaded the Natives, forced them out of their land, and massacred many of them. ALL of the land of what the U.S. and Canada currently has rightfully belongs to the Native Americans. The next time you start bashing China about how it invaded Tibet, look back at your own history and stop being so hypocritical.



Can you name how many places America invaded within the last 56 years?

Please don't be so hypocritical...

All of them are different versions of satillites. A/B/C with each improvement on the rest. What you are getting confused is that the ZY-1 series is from the CBERS series of commerical satillites. The Zy-2 is a new series which is a chinese only military satillite(dual use). I can prove it by the level it was lanuched at. about 450-500km which is similar to the American KH-11 in distance from earth. The Zy-1 being the one used for commerical purposes are in the 700-800km range

And with each new satillite in the ZY-2 series there will be impvoement or why would they give them new destinations?



Let me Repeat. The ZY-2 has nothing to do with the CBERS program. the CBERS programs are based on the ZY-1 platform.

THere has only been two CBERS launches one in 1999 called CBERS and the other one called CBERS-2 in 2003. In comparisioin to

The ZY-2 was launched in 2000, 2002 and 2004. They have nothing to do with the CBERS-2 program

Your article does not even mention anything about a ZY-2 anyway where did you get that idea? CBERS-3 and CBERS-4 have not beenaunched nor built. The ZY-2 is a dirrent satillite. Improved ability to amuver(over the ZY-1s nothing) and the weight difference is a indication of more things added to the ZY-2



No that is not how they say it
"The orbit of the new satellite is about a third lower than the CBERS-1. If it is carrying the same kind of observation equipment as the CBERS-1, this means an increase in spatial resolution to 10-13 meters using a High Resolution CCD Camera."

They said if the new satillie(Zy-2) is carrying the same sensors as the CBERS than at one third the altitude it wil have a resolution of about. 10-13m But it is not carrying the same sensors as the CBERS and is one thrid lower in altitude. Thats means better resolution of the cameras.

This article also pre-dates the ZY-2C launch



The CBERS-2 has a resoltuion of 5m which has been confirmed. If you put that lower in orbit as indicated by the russian estimate it takes off about one third to one half off the resoultion. And we can also agree that the ZY-2 is a military satillite because of its low orbit and will have better sensors.

Now if the ZY-2 was just a CBERS-2 it would have a minimum of 2.5-3m resolution just using the same censors of the CBERS-2. But the CBERS-2 is a cillivan satillite from brazil and china and the ZY-2 is chinas military sateillite.

Here is a article about Janes about the Zy-2

China Launches New Photo-Reconnaissance Satellite
Jane's Defence Weekly | November 6, 2002 | Phillip S. Clark

"China launched the second in its Zi Yuan-2 (ZY-2) series of photo-reconnaissance satellites from the Tai Yuan centre on 27 October using a CZ-4B launch vehicle. The first ZY-2 satellite was launched on 1 September 2000.

The approximately 1.5 tonnes ZY-2 satellite is the military version of the ZY-1/China Brazil Earth Resource Satellite (CBERS) platform that China developed jointly with Brazil for use as a civilian remote-sensing satellite. The ZY-1 version has an advertised operational lifetime of two years and it would be reasonable to assume that the military version has the same planned lifetime.

The first ZY-2 satellite operates in a 490-495km orbit, much lower than the ZY-1/CBERS (about 774km). This has the advantage that higher-resolution images can be obtained if CBERS-class imaging systems are carried; if higher-performance military systems are used then the ground resolution should be in the range of 10-20cm. The disadvantage of the lower orbit is that more frequent orbital corrections are required (the most recent one on 24 October) to counter the greater effects of orbital decay. As a result, the operational lifetimes of ZY-2 satellites will probably be limited more by the propellant mass carried, rather than the longevity of the on-board instrumentation. "

And mention of the ZY resolution here
"The new satellite was believed to employ digital-imaging technology and to have a resolution of 2 m or less. The satellite was designed and built by the Chinese Academy of Space Technology and was developed indigenously. It was said to be more advanced than earlier sensing satellites and was expected to have an orbital life of two years. The camera provided more than three times the resolution of the ZY-1 earth resources satellite. The Zi Yuan 2 satellite may have used the CBERS Sino-Brazilian bus of the earlier ZY-1. However it was also said to be of new design and demonstrated the capability to maneuver in orbit, adjusting its orbit after launch."
www.astronautix.com...



ISR satillies are your indian military satillites. THere are no other indian satillies for Recon except these.

The CARTOSAT-1(IRS-5) and IRS-6 are probaly the same satillies instead the CARTOSAT-1 was deployed at 618 km and the IRS-6 at 821 km. So that would explain why a satillite with one desination down had a smaller



Yup


[edit on 23-1-2006 by chinawhite]

Hello, I guess it will happen when China begin to dominant the hi-tech market and scientific research. and.....it is coming.
msnbc.msn.com...

sciencecareers.sciencemag.org...(parent)/

Which means, Chinese can produce much more add-value product instead of cheap stuff. As result, the worker can get more paid.

I would think most Chinese really like that idea. No.2 is perfect position for next 100 years.

Please. Let American continue to be the No.1 world policeman, so Chinese can focus more on their own life.

The old Chinese proverb: only to get big fortune quietly -------am I translating correctly or not?

Can't agree more. Why does China need to be No.1 and be the world police? Let U.S and their people enjoy their jobs

Who says being number makes you the world oplice ? That is a role the Americans have chosen for themsleves.
The more power and prosperity China has, the more agressive I imagine they'll become.
I just hope they fix their pollution, last time I was in Beijing it looked really foggy, when my eyes started stinging I realised it was pollution. It was the same when I was driven 100km out of Beijing as well. It's a shame that in the name of progress you have to ravage your country, 3 gorges dam just one example.

chinawhite,
so now you're saying that the ZY-2 IS a military satellite?!
Your government calls it a resource sat for civilian purposes.
And applying the same logic who is to say that the IRS P6 and the cartosat-1/2 are ONLY meant for civilian purposes, AND that the documented resolutions ARE the actual resolutions?!! Hell, if you can go from "less than 20 meters" to "1m meter or less" just based on the fac that there are 3 ZY-2 satellites up there, then hey anything's possible with these ISRO sats too!!

10-20cm?? puhleaasee.. Reality check!!

I never said it wasn't

Somehow you dont believe chinese reports while now you believe them?. I'll give you insight. A 20m resolution CDD camera is good enough for arigcultral surveys city planning.

A satillie which orbits at 400-500km is only that low because it gives better resolutions, The effects of gravity at 400-500km is more intense which pulls the satillite down and loses orbit which limits service life. You only move it down to go below clouds and what not to get better resolutions. The only other reason would be to sell them commerically like india. But as we know images from ZY-2 are not for commerical use

China already has a cillivan remote sensing project with brazil. Why are two projects nessarly when the first co-opperative project is more than suffiecent for your needs?



I never said it cannot be used for used for military purposes, I think i even said dual use in one of the articles i quoted or linked. I said indias military satillies are these satillies because you aid something about speculating about indias "military systems". And i said the only systesm india has are these ones

The reason why they are documented are because they sell them commerically. Thats why. Its no secret to get sales they quote resoultions. Because of the lack of funding india has to make them commerically sucessful to be able to launch these. Or there would be no lanuches



I quoted Janes i didn't speculate on 20-30cm that wasn't me talking. I dont think i ever said 20 or less i think that was you. And that was you getting confused with the ZY-1 to ZY-2. Dont acusse me of saying that. I have always thought that the ZY-2 is sub-5 and suspected sub 1m. THe more i investigated the more it made sense

If the ZY-2C is the CBERS-2 than at one third the distance it would be 2.5-3m It is comfired that the ZY-2 is a improved model(weight) and the ZY-2C is a more improved model.


There are not just 3 ZY-2s there are three models. each going up in weight and capability


The truth here Daedalus3 is china leads india in the space race. Sometimes large(launch vehicles, communications) and sometimes small(Remote sensing). The fact remains that china has suspended a lot of lanuches in preparation for the Shenzhu lanuches. and seeing as though they are finished for the momment more lanuches are going to occur. India will recieve alot of help though. For guidence india will join the russian but china is developing her own GPS and leeching off europeans to use theirs.

Lets see how Chandrayan-1 turns out .ok?

yes china will become a superpower however it will counterd by india becoming a superpower too both have similar expectations of better livin standards both have large populations but i think india has an edge more of its population talk english and understand western ideas as being a former british colony this has to be an advantage in trading which is how these countrys aspire to become global powerhouses of manufacturing and service industrys

Hahha, the people in africa have a much worse living situation/human rights than Iraq. Why don't americans try to free(invade) them? The answer is simple: There is no OIL there.

Gawd and what does everyone else do for Africa ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. What have the Europeans done, what have the South Americans done, what have the Asian's done ? NOTHING. The British and the Commonwealth have allowed Mugabe in Zimbabwe to run riot. Why should America sacrifice it's people and spend its money when the rest of the world does nothing ?

What a stupid argument and it really has nothing to do with my statement.

PS. If we really want to talk about injustices that should be solved, what about Chinese torture and suppression of the Tibetans not to mention China's continued brutal repression of the Uighar's in NW China. Should America step in and right these wrongs as well, after all they are the world policeman

[edit on 23-1-2006 by mad scientist]

www.guardian.co.uk...
Latest mission suggestion by the UK proposes 15,000 strong force to go to africa.

In 2000 there was a task force of RN warships and 800 royal marines sent to Sierra Leone.

In 2003 there was a company of the 2nd Battalion Royal Gurkha Rifles and a type 23 warship sent to the area.

In 2004 there was 45,000 uniformed UN peacekeeping forces were stationed in Africa.

www.assembly-weu.org...
List of EU operations since 1994...

Still convinced we aint doing anything?

Come on Devil, that for all intents and purposes is nothing. What were the soldiers therefore exactly ? The US did more for Somalia.



Most of these forces aren't European and a large majority are from African countries themselves.



Pretty much, Europe really hasn't done jack. Hell during the Rwanda massacres, teh French set up a safe haven in SW Rwanda for the people who were doing all the killing. If that's a European peacekeeping operation they can keep it to tehmselves.

I believe China will become an economic super-power in the coming decades. Their economy is growing and a lot of the jobs will be found in the East. It be a good idea to learn some Chinese if you are a buisness man or women. I work for a company that has been giving optional 3 times a week classes on Mandarin.

Well,the oribital thruster capability will make all the difference if at all.
I'm not sure if the IRS P6 or CARTOSAT series have those, and i doubt it.

But here's another point to note.
The real reason IMO that there were 3 launched was the fact that each of them had a lifespan of only 2 years. And if you look at the launch dates they're probably just about 2 years apart. So at a time there is only one
ZY-2 sat in orbit. THAT is the reason for 3 launches in 5 years. To keep at least one ZY-2 up there at all times during these 5 years. Lets see what happens in 2006 aye? Maybe another ZY-2 launch.

Chandrayaan..sure we'll wait and watch. Personally I don't feel quite optimistic abt it.. but I have no data to either back that up or refute it.

Yes the orbit life has to do with something called gravity . Putting a satillite at such a low altitude can have that effect.

The service life is at least 2year with the first one serving for a little more than 3 years. The scond one is presumly still in service since i has not been anounced of its retirement. The first KH-11s also had about a a three year lifespan.


Anything is possible

[edit on 24-1-2006 by chinawhite]