Jesus presents Himself as God

reply to post by Revolution9

. . . I want to learn more about this "Son of Man" aspect.

If you look at Matthew 24:30,
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
(2011 NIV)
it's clearly an allusion to a vision in the book of Daniel of the son of man.
Daniel 7:13
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
(2011 NIV)

Originally posted by Revolution9
The Catholic Church and many others have added certain rituals and doctrines that are not to be found in Scripture.

Not exactly. Scripture itself tells people to hold on to the truths that have been passed down.

Scripture and Tradition

The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit "Christ’s word" to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion.

Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. "’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been "preached"—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority

The only accounts we have are The Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. There are no other authentic sources.

... and the Catholic Church is the one that put scripture together back in the 300's. It was a Catholic council. So you can't rag on the Catholic Church for 'adding rituals and doctrines' but at the same time say that the gospels are authentic. They come from the same source .. the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church supposedly corrupted Christ's teachings ... then it easily could have corrupted the bible .. A CATHOLIC BOOK .. as well.

BTW .. The bible wasn't even invented until well into the 300's and most Christians didn't have bibles for hundreds of years after that. Oral traditions and oral teachings were all they had.

reply to post by Revolution9

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." Genesis 6:2.

Just so you know, anyone who followed God was considered a "son of God" back then, but then you have to compare it against being the "Son of God" with a capital "S". There are differences as they are written in the Bible.

By the way, here's another one. Jesus answers this man by telling him that he has just seen and talked to the "Son of God".

John 9:35-38

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Revolution9

 

. . . I want to learn more about this "Son of Man" aspect.

If you look at Matthew 24:30,
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
(2011 NIV)
it's clearly an allusion to a vision in the book of Daniel of the son of man.
Daniel 7:13
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
(2011 NIV)

Thanks for that. A great Prophesy indeed.

I will have to read Daniel again.

Originally posted by Haxsaw
one in the "WORD", not physically ONE entity, Jesus spoke the "WORD" of GOD, so it's not hard to understand why Jesus spoke of himself as a 3rd person.

So let's get this straight, many Christians think GOD sent a third of himself to suckle on a women's breast then climb out of a vagina, then allow the corrupt jews/romans to commit a major sin and kill this third of himself, and through this sin of the corrupt jews/romans you have been saved. Just wow, sounds like the devil has you right where he wants you, mainly for the two reasons below.

1/firstly by making you commit the worst sin of all; Idolatry
2/false hope in saviour by crucifiction rather than good deeds for the right intention

Come on Christians you were hoodwinked long ago, just pray to the ONE Jesus prayed to, Jesus didn't pray to himself or a 3rd of himself, so with all due respect get a grip

edit on 6-9-2013 by Haxsaw because: (no reason given)

Good Deeds? What is your standard for right and wrong?

How many lies have you told in your whole life?

Have you ever stolen anything that didn't belong to you?

Have you ever used the Lord's name in vain? (like oh my G-d)

Jesus said that if you look at a woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery with her in your heart. Have you ever lusted after a woman?

If you are guilty to all of the above, as I am, YOU ARE A LYING-THIEF, A BLASPHEMER AND AN ADULTERER AT HEART. How good are you in the sight of God? We all fall short. God views your good deeds as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)

Jesus as our Savior is the only hope that any of us can have. Put your trust in Him, not yourself.
Please think about what I've said. God bless you.

ETA: The worst sin of all, is not idolatry. All sins are equal (James 2:10). It is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that is unforgivable.

reply to post by Revolution9


Just because the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible does not make the concept invalid. That is a weak argument.

The words monogamy, theocracy, atheism, I can go on and on.... those words are not found in the bible, but the concepts are.

reply to post by UnaChispa


The trinity isn't found in the Bible because the concept of a three in one God doesn't exist in the Bible.

Take the example of Ezekiel's vision of God:

Ezekiel 1

Ezekiel’s Vision of God

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the River Chebar, that the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

5 Also from within it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man. 6 Each one had four faces, and each one had four wings. 7 Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the soles of calves’ feet. They sparkled like the color of burnished bronze. 8 The hands of a man were under their wings on their four sides; and each of the four had faces and wings. 9 Their wings touched one another. The creatures did not turn when they went, but each one went straight forward.

The Hebrew God is expressed in 4s, not in 3s. The name of God itself YHWH is expressed in 4s. The trinity concept is derived from pagan triads.

reply to post by windword


My friend, we must look at all 66 books that God has given us.

Please take a look at this. CARM.ORG

And this link too. The Plurality Study.

reply to post by windword

The trinity isn't found in the Bible because the concept of a three in one God doesn't exist in the Bible.

Stop believing what religion is telling you...

The anti-Trinity heresy would NEVER have been condemned by the fourth century church if the concept did not exist in the Bible.

Of course, the event of Jesus’ baptism plainly and naturally affirms the Trinity—all three Persons are directly and distinctly involved. What obviously proves simultaneous Modalism false are the numerous passages indicating a personal distinction between the three Persons of the Trinity (e.g., Luke 10:21-22; John 1:1b; 6:37-40; 14:23; 2 Cor. 13:14). www.christiandefense.org...

Plural pronouns used of God proving the trinity

A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.

"Our" Gen 1:26
"Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
"We" Isa 6:8

B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:

"Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26

"Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22

"Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

Trinity Proof Texts

reply to post by UnaChispa


I never said that God wasn't represented in plurality, but that plurality wasn't expressed as a trinity, it was expressed in 4s, as in YHWH.

You know what else is represented by 4? The TETRAHEDRON! The tertahedron is the first basic solid, other than the sphere which represents singularity, that can exist in our reality that has facets. If God has facets, then he has 4 of them, not 3. There is no object that exists within our reality that has only 3 facets.

reply to post by Murgatroid


What's missing from this phrase, "Me, myself and I"?

reply to post by windword


You're describing the Seraphs that surround the throne of God. Read on in Ezekiel 1...

Ezekiel 1:24-26

24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

The throne of God sits above the Seraphs. Notice that the one who sits on the throne has the appearance of a man. That would be Jesus.

reply to post by Deetermined

that the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

The visions of "GOD" that Ezekiel experienced were not in triad, but in 4s. You can translate that all you like, but there is no reason to believe in a trinity, as God is expressed in 4s; Or, to assume that the center of the vision was Jesus, not GOD, or that Jesus is GOD. That's just your interpretation of the vision.

God and Jesus are NOT interchangable in the Old Testament. God is God, period.

reply to post by windword


But Jesus is God, that's the point we've been making all along.

More information about the "four living creatures" can be found in...

Revelation 4:6-9
Revelation 5:6-14
Revelation 6:1-8
Revelation 14:3
Revelation 15:7
Revelation 19:4

reply to post by windword

God and Jesus are NOT interchangable in the Old Testament. God is God, period.

God is Spirit and Jesus is always the one with the likeness or appearance of a man that is filled with God's Spirit.

John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

reply to post by Deetermined

But Jesus is God, that's the point we've been making all along.

No, he's not. That's the point that I've been making all along.

Jesus is God in your mind, not mine, and not in the words of Jesus himself.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus is a much God as I am.

reply to post by windword

No, he's not. That's the point that I've been making all along.

You mean the same way that you tried to point out that the four living creatures were God? I think we already know what your level of understanding of the Bible and it's meanings are.

reply to post by Deetermined


I didn't say that Ezekiel's vision was of God, Ezekiel did.

that the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

So, God is NOT a living being?

God is manifested in 4s, not 3s, all throughout the Old Testament.

I think it's your understanding of the Bible that is lacking. The trinity is a pagan construct and is NOT biblical, as I have shown consistently in this thread.

THE TRINITY IDEA WAS INFUSED INTO CHRISTIANITY
THROUGH PAGAN GREEK PLATONIC THOUGHT

Pillar Of Truth: The Origins of the Trinity
THE ORIGIN OF THE TRINITY

reply to post by windword


Notice that Ezekiel's visions of God included a throne with someone appearing like a man sitting on it. Throughout the Old or New Testament, these creatures are never sitting on the throne, although they are always around it.

Where in the Old Testament do you keep coming up with these "4's"? Do you care to point out something else other than the creatures we already discussed?

reply to post by Deetermined


As I pointed out before, the 4s are exemplified in God's name YHWH. It's not YHW. Also, there are the 4 winds, the 4 corners of the earth, etc.