big bang?really

reply to post by filledcup

"a problem cannot be solved by the same level of intelligence that caused it"

Some people seem to think that Albert Einstein said it even though no one can actually say where and when.

Doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't it mean that God couldn't figure it out either?

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by filledcup

 

"a problem cannot be solved by the same level of intelligence that caused it"

Some people seem to think that Albert Einstein said it even though no one can actually say where and when.

Doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't it mean that God couldn't figure it out either?

edit on 9/5/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

yes i think it has been quoted from Einstein but i remember also seeing it as a quote from mark twain or something. cant remember.

but the way i look at it. is that it would require a greater intelligence to create a lesser intelligence.

God would be the intelligence level above us, supreme in all regard from our point of view. he can thus create inferior versions of himself. and those inferior versions can create inferior versions of themselves(robots, computers, artificial intelligence). but the inferior versions cant create an intelligence greater than their own.

thus, an unconscious product of randomness cannot create consciousness. which is why we struggle so imitating the creation. computer(imitation brain), camera(imitation eye), microphone(imitation ear) etc etc. as we further struggle to create intelligence but can only muster artificial intelligence. it must mean that consciousness existed before we were created to benefit from it. and of course, what is conscious or rather even above consciousness was able to create it to use as building materials for conscious living beings.

standard project management. the raw materials must all be present before construction can begin.

i think we can agree that consciousness is superior to unconsciousness.

reply to post by filledcup

but the way i look at it. is that it would require a greater intelligence to create a lesser intelligence.

That isn't what it says.

"a problem cannot be solved by the same level of intelligence that caused it"

If God caused everything he cannot figure it out. Right?

If the big bang theory is true. There must be something outside the universe that caused it. We cant go there so we dont know.

Maybe that theory will change in time once we advance further. It's such a big question we can only speculate.

If time does not exist outside the universe, can events still happen. If not how did the universe come to be. Doesn't science state that for an event to happen, time needs to exist?

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by filledcup

 

but the way i look at it. is that it would require a greater intelligence to create a lesser intelligence.

That isn't what it says.

"a problem cannot be solved by the same level of intelligence that caused it"

If God caused everything he cannot figure it out. Right?

what the religious text then say is that..

God created this universe to house mini consciousnesses which can grow to become like him. immaterial and timeless/eternal. he created a path to Godhood through the system of creation and certain rules must be followed to pass a test and proceed through the various levels toward that goal.

we look to create a man with science in a lab, but if a man and woman lay together look we can create a perfect living being. all the tools were given to us. including the religious/spiritual doctrines which guide us to live with compassion, acknowledge/praise God, and meditate on the internal path of the chakra system which Christ died to carve that way back to God/Godhood for us. all built into us. and denied to noone.

this is why God is so great. he created a system that is able to eventually produce intelligences on his level. so he didnt fail in that regard at all. we just have to start at the bottom and work our way up. anyone who appreciates and advocates the benefits of hard work shouldnt have a problem with that.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by filledcup

 

but the way i look at it. is that it would require a greater intelligence to create a lesser intelligence.

That isn't what it says.

"a problem cannot be solved by the same level of intelligence that caused it"

If God caused everything he cannot figure it out. Right?

No Phage, that's not what it means. Per the scriptures, God created everything and said it was GOOD. Man caused the problem....That means that man can't SOLVE the problem....Hence the whole...Jesus Messiah...I'm sure you know the story...you've been around the block a few times.

A2D

As for the OP....

I know WHY the postulate the big bang....I mean it's the only reasonably understandable conclusion that would exclude deity....

The TEENY TINY THING that gets me is that time began with the big bang....but yet nothing can exist outside time....so at the initial "bang" if you will, both time and the singularity created themselves....

It just boggles my mind to even think about it....

Time began when this...singularity began rapidly expanding....but this singularity only existed at the point that time began........

some conundrum that is....

A2D

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

Yeah. I know the story.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by filledcup

 

but the way i look at it. is that it would require a greater intelligence to create a lesser intelligence.

That isn't what it says.

"a problem cannot be solved by the same level of intelligence that caused it"

If God caused everything he cannot figure it out. Right?

If God is Omnipotent, can he create a stone he can not lift?

Originally posted by greavsie1971
If the big bang theory is true. There must be something outside the universe that caused it. We cant go there so we dont know.

Maybe that theory will change in time once we advance further. It's such a big question we can only speculate.

If time does not exist outside the universe, can events still happen. If not how did the universe come to be. Doesn't science state that for an event to happen, time needs to exist?

edit on 5-9-2013 by greavsie1971 because: (no reason given)

For "Big Bang" substitute "White Hole".. It still works. Because if there was a singularity that exploded,the vibes/mass would be distributed around the Universe with a perfect geometry. But a White hole ejecting vibes/matter, as it was made available from the "Black Hole" feeding it as it grabbed massive amounts at random. Would make the Universe more like it does now.

reply to post by anonentity


Who defines what omnipotent really is......

Perhaps omnipotence follows a law of logic.....

Meaning one only has omnipotence if it is used logically....

A2D

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by filledcup

 

but the way i look at it. is that it would require a greater intelligence to create a lesser intelligence.

That isn't what it says.

"a problem cannot be solved by the same level of intelligence that caused it"

If God caused everything he cannot figure it out. Right?

No Phage, that's not what it means. Per the scriptures, God created everything and said it was GOOD. Man caused the problem....That means that man can't SOLVE the problem....Hence the whole...Jesus Messiah...I'm sure you know the story...you've been around the block a few times.

A2D

i think man can solve the problem. but in a world of society which men look for leaders to lead them rather than lead themselves, they fail to take up the 'burden of the cross'. they needed Christ to set an example. to show what can be achieved before they gained the faith to try it for themselves. to know that God is real and he does administer the promise of eternal life and life after death.

without that in our world our existence would be truly purposeless. we as humans and conscious living things would have no value. like how some kill 1000 ants and say those ants serve no purpose. but we all know that even ants have a place and a purpose in the whole that benefits all. just like the bees.. without them we'd probably have a serious ecosystem problem on our hands.

atheistic belief is one of returning to nothing upon death. i dont know how they can rationalize having a soul in such a purposeless existence to simply return to unconscious nonexistence. all memories being washed away as though they never existed upon death. but such a place is synonymous with Hell. while Heaven is its opposite where there is abundance of all things. rules of time and space no longer restrict us there.

it makes sense, that for there to be justice, the bad must be punished and the good who endured can receive reward. but just imagine living in ur father's house and treating him like he doesnt exist. worst yet telling him he is not ur father, disowning him in his own house.

God wants us to be good to one another. is that such a bad thing? i ask. by not defending the good, we choose to free barabas a murderer and rapist to roam our lands over the Prince of Peace.

so it would seem humans dont want peace. they prefer to fight like survival of the fittest in the jungle and roam in packs and victimize the weak. then maybe we should return to being dumb animals living in the jungle. the theme of babel props up there too. there is no point to progress if u stay in the same place u claim to have left behind.

Originally posted by anonentity

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by filledcup

 

but the way i look at it. is that it would require a greater intelligence to create a lesser intelligence.

That isn't what it says.

"a problem cannot be solved by the same level of intelligence that caused it"

If God caused everything he cannot figure it out. Right?

If God is Omnipotent, can he create a stone he can not lift?

lols that isnt omnipotence. omnipotence is not being confined to the rules of time and space for travel and being present at a point in the universe.

no God cant create a stone he cannot lift because a stone is material. so any stone he creates will have to fit in the universe which he already lifts. and that's what happens when u think in human limits. when inferior things try to judge something superior to it u get the y2k bug. divide by zero. and it's perfectly normal and scientifically proven through observation.

a better question might be can God create something superior to himself. since i dont know the answer to that im going to refer to what the scripts say. and that the only person trying to do that is Satan. for God's creation to attempt to superseed him is the epitome of evil. it houses the 7 sins and throws off the balance of creation.

just like the rich sucking out of the poor until their is no more poor. and greed etc ends up destroying everyone because the poor fill roles in society fundamental to its operation and continuance.

It's obvious that some sort of big bang event happened in the past for two reasons: 1) homogeneous and isotropic nature of the universe we observe around us and 2) because the CMB radiation when plotted produces the signature of a black body spectrum.

Actually the 1st point works against the theory of the big bang a little bit but if you bring in the theory of inflation it tells us that at one point all energy was highly condensed into a single point or sphere. The 2nd point tells us that what ever the big bang was, it started in perfect thermal equilibrium as a highly ordered structure with no entropy at all.

In reality the big bang is probably nothing like what most people imagine it to be, like a huge explosion of energy or something which popped out of no where... it was much weirder and much more abstract than a normal explosion. But it's fair to be worried about where the energy came from, because some physicists do in fact say that the energy popped out of no where.

Especially quantum physicists, they will tell you that the energy of the universe was created by a huge random quantum fluctuation. Generally, the only time that science allows energy to appear from nothing, is during the moment our universe was created. But they very much fear looking at what happened before the big bang or what actually triggered the big bang.

They step around the problem by saying that nothing existed before the big bang, not even time. So they can say that at the very first moment of time the tiny point of energy already existed and there was nothing before the big bang... time just started like that for no apparent reason. Obviously that rationale is absurd and I wouldn't listen to anyone who argues such things.

If there was one big bang then it's impossible to say that it can't happen again. And if it can happen again than it must have already happened before. There is no true start to time... thinking that our universe was created at the very start of time is some what akin to thinking that the Earth is located in the center of the universe, it's an egocentric point of view.

The simple fact is that the energy had to come from some where, one way or another science must explain how the energy of the big bang was created, otherwise we start to sound like religious people who like to claim that god has just always been there and we don't need to explain how he got there in the first place, he just always was there.

I utterly refuse to promote such nonsense, I firmly believe there is a rational and logical solution to every problem. Even if some type of god does exist there is a reason for why and how it exists. I'm a quantum mechanical guy myself so I tend to lean towards to concept of random quantum fluctuations producing the energy of the big bang.

However I also take into consideration the theory of negative energy as described by Hawking and other scientists. The theory tells us that the big bang actually created an equal amount of positive and "negative" energy, and when you combine the negative energy with the positive energy the result is 0. So the average state of reality right now would be nothing.

The basic idea is that you can get energy from nothing as long as you have negative energy to balance it out. In my opinion this is the most promising explanation for why we have a universe filled with stuff instead of absolutely nothing. The real question that concerns me is why does absolutely everything in nature appear to be quantized and not fractal.

We were taught that you never get something for nothing. But now, after a life time of work, I think that in fact you can get a whole Universe for free. ~ Stephen Hawking

As a Taoist, I neither believe in the Big Bang. Or in god. My understanding of 'nothing' and 'something', of 'matter' and 'no-matter' are different to most people's.
What I believe is that the Tao, (and no, it's not a god), has always existed and always will. This 'Tao' combines the dynamic of Yin and Yang, (which are the 2 opposites of everything), and it's this dynamic which creates 'reality' as we perceive it.

People find 'infinity' and 'something out of nothing' confusing because they think of these things in a linear and materialistic way.Don't think in boxes.

After EM wave came into being, space has to expand at the speed of light.
So space is so many light years long in every direction as he age of the universe.
Though space is essentially a 2 dimensional sheet

"The big bang that can be spoken of is not the real big bang."

Why is it always a God vs the BB
Why not give a scientific explanation instead of resorting to a religious battle.
What caused everything from nothing
The BB is a joke and everybody knows that, what are the other options that dont include God

Its a simple question that deserves a reasoned scientific explanation.

reply to post by borntowatch


well God could have created light and matter and we witness the formation as a big bang coming out from a point of singularity in the darkness of space. then when he created the first creatures of all types and the plants and all that evolution took over from there and the rules set by God in Nature.

Its a lot to take in but there's a few things to consider before writing it off.

When you go very very very small, below atomic level, things get very very weird and normal rules and laws dont apply, or apply differently.

Im only guessing here but i would expect the same strange behavior when you go very very large, or very very hot, high pressures etc

You may only know the universe for its matter and molecules, but theres much we cant know due to where we are on the scale of things. have you seen the pictures comparing the earth to the sun, and (our) sun to the biggest stars we have detected. Just that is crazy enough, then you have wormholes and blackholes and whatever else we havnt figured out how to observe yet.