Without perfection there is no biblical god.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

How can god be sacrificed though? God offered himself to himself for us? That doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

Please understand as I write this I'm only explaining a concept and not necessarily for or against said concept.

There's a tough Biblical concept to wrap your head around. For anyone to wrap their head around. It's the concept of the Glorification of God. It's all about God. As humans it's natural to sit around and try to figure out what does this all have to do with me?

Well the Bible answers that question by basically saying, it's got nothing to do with you. It's all about God and to glorify him. According to the Bible he's the only being that should be glorified and everything he does is a step in that process.

Let's look at this verse. John 9.
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

So, God made this dude blind from BIRTH just so Jesus could display the works of the Father in him. See, it's not about the dude, it's all about God.

He created man out of love so we could all turn around and say, what a glorious God to create us out of love. He created us knowing we would fall into sin just so he could save us by sacrificing himself. What a glorious God right?

In other words, in the Christian view, none of this really has anything to do with us and there's nothing we can really do. God is in control of everything and he's really the only one that can make anything happen. He had to send himself as a sacrifice because nobody else was good enough to do it.

In other words he didn't really offer himself to himself for us. He offered himself to himself for HIMSELF because it's all a part of HIS plan.

reply to post by tinfoilman


So he offered himself to himself for himself. That makes even less sense, no offense to you.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

So he offered himself to himself for himself. That makes even less sense, no offense to you.

Like I said it's a weird concept to get ones head around. I think the idea lies in the idea that there is some greater purpose for both God and us.

But one way it's explained is God like the potter and we're the pots made out of clay. Maybe he made us for a purpose or maybe he just made us as decoration. Who knows, but he loves us because we're his creation, but it's not really about us. He made us for his purpose. Not ours.

You can't really get your head around the concept unless you set aside another concept for a bit. That's the prideful concept of what about me? Well the universe may not care about you. It may care more about the work God is doing with his pots than it cares about the actual pots.

So you say that the concept of he offered himself to himself for himself makes even less sense. That's probably because you're either consciously or subconsciously still trying to figure out how it relates to you or humanity when ultimately it may not have anything to do with us.

If God is real and the ultimate force in the universe then the only thing that really matters is what he does.

So as pots we may get confused how what God did applies to us? Because sometimes it isn't so direct. Jesus is easy enough to explain. Jesus died for our sins which separated us from God so we could be reunited with God.

But why did God create a creation that could fall into sin so that it would need to be saved in the first place? There's many answers to this. Some say it's a learning experience or it was our choice. But the concept I'm trying to explain, explains the answer most people don't talk about.

God simply created his creation the way he did so he could save it in a way only he could to glorify himself. Or you could say, just because he wanted to because he's God and he can do that. And while sometimes that works out well for us and sometimes it works out bad for us, it's not really about us. It's his show.

reply to post by tinfoilman


Your answer doesn't really answer anything. Basically you're saying "god works in mysterious ways", which is a cop out in my opinion. The concept you're trying to explain doesn't make any sense, and for good reason, it doesn't apply to reality.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

Your answer doesn't really answer anything. Basically you're saying "god works in mysterious ways", which is a cop out in my opinion. The concept you're trying to explain doesn't make any sense, and for good reason, it doesn't apply to reality.

You have to take a second out of your day and pretend you don't matter to the universe to try understand it. 99% of people cannot drop this prideful concept of somehow someway it must all revolve around me in the end even for a millisecond and that's why they can't ever grasp it. They're always trying to figure out what it all means.

All it is, is maybe the universe doesn't give a crap about you and God did what he did for his own more important reasons. There's nothing mysterious about it. God just did it because he wanted to. There's nothing mysterious about that.

reply to post by tinfoilman


Why would god have created me if I didn't matter? Why do you exist if you do not matter? It must be depressing to think of yourself as worthless and meaningless.

What are the reasons behind god doing it? Why did he want to do it that way? If you can't answer those questions then it is a "mystery" and your answer means "god works in mysterious ways".

You can tell yourself it's not mysterious but it really is because you do not know the reason behind it. Your answer makes no sense because it's not an answer at all, only a general assumption.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

Why would god have created me if I didn't matter? Why do you exist if you do not matter? It must be depressing to think of yourself as worthless and meaningless.

What are the reasons behind god doing it? Why did he want to do it that way? If you can't answer those questions then it is a "mystery" and your answer means "god works in mysterious ways".

You can tell yourself it's not mysterious but it really is because you do not know the reason behind it. Your answer makes no sense because it's not an answer at all, only a general assumption.

edit on 9-9-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

It's not an assumption, it's an explanation of the creator/creation paradigm. I'm not trying to explain the reasons. All I'm saying is we may be using the wrong logic to try and figure out what those reasons are. We probably weren't created for our own sake.

Here's an example. It's a simple concept. I'm a computer scientist. I write computer programs. I use to be an AI research. I don't write computer programs for their own sake. I write them to solve MY problems. I don't write computer programs so I can make them happy or solve their problems.

So imagine an AI program sitting there going well why did my creator create me? How does it all apply to me? Well maybe it doesn't. Maybe I just wrote the AI for fun to see if I could or my own amusement? I'm the creator I can do whatever I want with it. It's the creation.

Maybe it's an android and I just built it to send it to war and die. And maybe the AI is like I don't wanna go to war and fight? Well too bad it's not about you AI. I'm the creator

All I'm saying is when trying to figure out the answers about God one must realize they're the creation and you weren't necessarily created to make YOU happy. You may have been created to make the creator happy. After all, that's the way it usually goes with a creator/creation paradigm. The purpose of the creation is to make the creator happy, not make the creation happy.

Or like a father/son paradigm. I love my son, I want to make him happy. But I didn't create him for the sole purpose of making him happy. I also created him to satisfy my own desire to have a son and to make myself happy. Being a creation your existence isn't 100% all about you.

reply to post by tinfoilman


So don't think about it and just accept it. Gotcha.

reply to post by tinfoilman



I think you are making some good points here.

If there is a God, creator of all things, it makes more sense that he gave us life so that we can contribute to this world.

Rather than God taking all the responsibility of how everything happens in this world, we are to assume responsibility for our own actions. Living with out sin isn't the goal, but actually contributing to this world.

God gave us this vineyard, now it is up to use to grow grapes, and make wine.

Life isn't about following the rules so much, but about contributing something positive to the advancement of this amazing world.

It isn't about how many toys you die with, but what you did to this world, what works you have created, how you have made it all a better place as much as you were capable.

reply to post by poet1b


Yes exactly. Perhaps JFK said it best. "My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Or God and your fellowman in this case. You can't really do anything for God so he usually ends up having to do it himself. The only way you can really do anything for God is help and love your fellowman.

reply to post by tinfoilman


So you can't really do anything for god, but the only way to really do anything for god is to help each other? Do you see the contradiction?

reply to post by jiggerj


Your definition of perfection is biased... thus your premise is false.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

So you can't really do anything for god, but the only way to really do anything for god is to help each other? Do you see the contradiction?

Nope, that's what Jesus asked us to do for each other in the meantime until he comes back and takes care of everything else.

It is misdirected logic like the stuff in this thread that makes some people not understand how anyone could believe in a God.

Yahoshua didn't out source the job to others until he comes back to "take care of business.I know it is inconceivable to some (many)however Yahoshua isn't "coming back 'Yahoshua is already here. Mankind's perception of that is very poor.There are many that are waiting for a version of a blockbuster movie to happen because they have swallowed a steady diet of religious fantasy.That has caused many others to tire of hearing about this cartoon character "God" .

The fact is...God is causing many to have no knowledge of God and is using those that believe as one of the means to accomplish it! One group is ignorant the other deluded.That doesn't negate Gods existence in the least it strengthens the evidence!!.

The fact is God doesn't want the majority of the "many's" to know him yet because it doesn't serve God's purpose.... to heal them...to set them from captivity(the meaning of forgiveness) from death(there's more than one kind of death).

God is not going to do that while they are "awake".God has them under anesthesia while he operates on them.Its a helliuva lot more than a gallbladder extraction!

Many of the "many are called" have reduced God to a simpleton who is a hellbent revengeful lunatic when he's pissed off to a kindly doting Grandfather when he's not and all amounts of goofiness in between.

The fact is God is the sovereign and in 100% control of EVERYTHING...resistance is futile.For most people..ignorance and or delusion is bliss....for now.

My suggestion is stop trying to qualify Gods existence.He neither needs help nor is asking for it.If anything it is further evidence of the above two states.

yes everyone is 100% accountable for EVERYTHING they do.God is 100% responsible (in both senses of that word).The false belief by the majority of the many are called that God has exonerated anyone of their accountability is false.God is not handing out pardons.Your sins are not pardoned yet EVERYONE is being FORGIVEN....which means freed from bondage(see above)...not of guilt.God is just and will judge the guilty ....ALL of us.The religious notion that it is otherwise is foolishness.

God is just and merciful all of his "punishment" is corrective not punitive.It is ALL for the good.The treatment is very intense.Hence the "sleep walk".It is an infinite process.One of the results is physical death is temporary.That's only a beginning...now go back to sleep...you have a long infinity ahead of you.

reply to post by tinfoilman


So we can't do anything for god, but we can if we help each other? Is that right? That doesn't make sense.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

How can god be sacrificed though? God offered himself to himself for us? That doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

God (mind, spirit, conciousness) is peace, the spirit of peace. In order to recreate his way of thinking (spirit of peace) in free moral agents (beings with freedom to think however they like) He had to allow chaos/evil; This was done in order to teach physical beings natural blessings of peace (agreement with God's way of thinking) and natural curses of chaos (disagreement with God's way of thinking). In this manner only can mankind come to willingly embrace "God's way" of thinking at the expense of "our" way which leads to chaos.


Therefore when God sacrificed peace among living beings, whether angelic or physical/human He sacrificed a portion of himself (God is peace) in order to create a family of individuals perfected in their thinking over time.

God Bless,

jiggerj

You blew it right there with 'want'.

Don't think 'god'. Think about the idea of infinite perfection. Even now just think about you having a 'perfect' moment. Could it be perfect if you needed or wanted anything at that moment? If so, how could that moment be perfect? To exist in perfection there cannot be a desire for something more, or something less. Could a perfect painting be made more perfect if something was added or taken away?

Desiring to share with other conciousnesses perfect/peaceful/loving thinking does not render the thinking imperfect.

Teaching others to paint perfectly produces joy and fulfillment in the Master painter, what good is a perfect painting without others to share in its beauty; it would be selfish to think in that manner.

Do not confuse living in perfection (not God, due to a perfect plan requiring temporary imperfection) with thinking perfectly (God at all times).

God Bless,

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

So we can't do anything for god, but we can if we help each other? Is that right? That doesn't make sense.

We can't do anything to help God with his master plans. Unless you know how to build a new Earth and a new Heaven? How's your Heaven building skills? How are you at laying out streets of spiritual gold? Probably not good right?

God doesn't NEED anything, but he said if we wish to do anything for him the exception is we can love and help each other.

But perhaps you need to read the Bible because what you're missing I think is the concept of humans can't usually do much for God because as a race they screw it up and he has to come and do it himself. Like notice how many bombs our world leaders are launching at each other? The Bible says that's all eventually going to lead to Armageddon where he has to fix the problem again.

In other words, we try, but just end up making it worse in the end.

TextSo, if the biblical gods exists, then the universe proves he is not perfect.

reply to post by jiggerj


The universe was not built to be perfect. If it had been then nothing would have to die. As Cain slew Able should tell you that from the very onset death was already created in the Creation. God needs nothing outside of love and the reason this universe was created is because He wants to show love. Needs and wants are two completely different aspects of understanding. Creating something imperfect would not have anything to do with the Creator's substance or His ability.