Without perfection there is no biblical god.

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posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


In the begining was only God. No universe, no spirit realm only a perfect thinking being... that wanted to reproduce himself (his way of thining) into unique beings capible of free thought (free will).

The creation of the spirit realm was part of this plan.

The creation of the physical realm countless billions of years ago was part of this plan.

Creating angelic beings with free moral agency (angels) even with the ability to choose a way of thinking in opposition to God (Lucifer) knowing it will result in the creation of evil was part of this plan.

Destroying the first Earth (ELE, dinosaurs etc. extinct) after Lucifer rebeled in thinking (evil was created) in order to re-create it suitable for mankind to live upon it was part of this plan.

Re-creating the Earth in 7 days 6000 years ago with mankind (Adam and Eve) upon it was part of this plan.

Mankind sinning and being cast out in the World to suffer was part of this plan.

Mankind living 6000 years apart from God's intervention (except for a select moments in time for a great purpose) allowed to develope their own religions, governments, laws, and ways of thinking apart from God's was part of this plan. This is the age we are living in now, the age where you are free to determine your own way of thinking that you feel is "right".

And now at the end of this age (6 days = 1-6000 years) and the begining of the next day (7th day = millenium) it is God's perfect plan to end the age of mankind's self rule and usher in the Kingdom of God on Earth for the next 1000 years. As all civilization that mankind has built by their own reasoning falls down like the foundation of sand it was built upon must dictate in time. This too is God's perfect plan. The 7th day (6000-7000 years) is God's, and mankind will give up their ways to learn at the feet of the family of God (Elohim).

CONCLUSION

God desires to reproduce His way of thinking in free moral agents (free thinking beings) so He can share all that is perfect with billions of other beings made perfect through the renewing of their minds, most over the course of two physical lifetimes (on ein this present age, one in the Great White Thrown age). This is the purpose of mankind, this is the plan of God from begining to fulfillment.

If one does not know the plan of God, why they were created, how God accomplishes this action in the minds of His people, what creates Godly character in individual beings etc. Your OP conclusion can be reasonable.

But to anyone in God's Church, who know these truths and lives them daily your conclusion is foolishness. God will reveal what is true in His perfet timing as He has since the begining.

God Bless,




posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 04:29 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


God sacrificed His peace (perfection) in order to create mankind is His spiritual image over the course of 7100 years.

Agape = God's love and it requires the sacrifice of self for the betterment of all others. God loved our purpose so much, He sacrificed Himself (peace/perfection) in order to create something with free will and perfection of thought, which can be accomplished in NO OTHER MANNER than by the perfect plan of God.

God is sacrifical love.

God Bless,



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by ElohimJD
 


How can god be sacrificed though? God offered himself to himself for us? That doesn't make much sense in my opinion.



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by ElohimJD
 





In the begining was only God. No universe, no spirit realm only a perfect thinking being... that ***wanted*** to


You blew it right there with 'want'.

Don't think 'god'. Think about the idea of infinite perfection. Even now just think about you having a 'perfect' moment. Could it be perfect if you needed or wanted anything at that moment? If so, how could that moment be perfect? To exist in perfection there cannot be a desire for something more, or something less. Could a perfect painting be made more perfect if something was added or taken away?



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by ElohimJD
reply to post by jiggerj
 


God sacrificed His peace (perfection) in order to create mankind is His spiritual image over the course of 7100 years.

Agape = God's love and it requires the sacrifice of self for the betterment of all others. God loved our purpose so much, He sacrificed Himself (peace/perfection) in order to create something with free will and perfection of thought, which can be accomplished in NO OTHER MANNER than by the perfect plan of God.

God is sacrifical love.

God Bless,


In this and your last post you try to take my topic to where it can't go. I understand what you're saying, but it contradicts what we humans perceive as a state of perfection. When we say that god is perfect we mean it in a literal sense that cannot be compromised. God is PERFECT in every way, in every fiber and nuance of his being and in his thoughts. We do not consider him only 80% perfect, or 99.9999% perfect. We consider him to BE perfection.

But, if he IS perfection, how can a perfect being desire to be less than perfect, as in your statement of god sacrificing his perfection? To desire, to want, to need, to alter perfection in ANY way, declares this being to be imperfect. A perfect mind would not (could not) even contemplate such a thought.

So, if this god IS perfection, then he would have been in this state before creating anything (the universe, us...). And in this perfection he wouldn't have been able to even fathom making changes.



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 





intent of the Creator of it all.


Anything within a state of perfection, anything that IS perfection, cannot have intent. If it was god's 'intent' to make things better, or worse, less or more, is to declare that his state of perfection to be not perfect - to be lacking.

Consider this: If the universe and man were to be considered a part of god's perfection, if the creation of all that we see was a perfect idea, well, if god was never born and has always existed, then the creation of the universe would have been a perfect idea a trillion, trillion, trillion... years ago. So, why just 14 billion years ago? What changed?



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 





intent of the Creator of it all.


Anything within a state of perfection, anything that IS perfection, cannot have intent. If it was god's 'intent' to make things better, or worse, less or more, is to declare that his state of perfection to be not perfect - to be lacking.

Consider this: If the universe and man were to be considered a part of god's perfection, if the creation of all that we see was a perfect idea, well, if god was never born and has always existed, then the creation of the universe would have been a perfect idea a trillion, trillion, trillion... years ago. So, why just 14 billion years ago? What changed?



You are making many presuppositions that do not necessarily need to be true.



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 10:27 PM
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Not to get too esoteric or philosophical on you, but you could say that nature and the universe, in a purely scientific perspective is absolutely perfect...even in it's imperfections. Is not the Solar system perfect?



posted on Sep, 6 2013 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by amazing
 


I agree. Life would not be possible if the universe wasn't perfect. Us being able to contemplate our own existence speaks to the perfection that surrounds and permeates us.
edit on 6-9-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by amazing
Not to get too esoteric or philosophical on you, but you could say that nature and the universe, in a purely scientific perspective is absolutely perfect...even in it's imperfections. Is not the Solar system perfect?


I can't see using the word 'perfect' to define the solar system. The solar system is what it is. If Mars had a gentle climate with life on it, would it make the solar system more perfect? If half of our planet was as hostile as Jupiter, would the solar system be less perfect?



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


None of those things would make it any less perfect. Everything relies on everything else. Everything is perfectly tuned.

Did you know that if you changed the force of gravity by even the smallest fraction of a percent, the entire universe would fall apart? It's called the "fine-tuned universe". You can't get much more perfect than that.

You can still have perfection without the biblical god being in the equation.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj
 


None of those things would make it any less perfect. Everything relies on everything else. Everything is perfectly tuned.

Did you know that if you changed the force of gravity by even the smallest fraction of a percent, the entire universe would fall apart? It's called the "fine-tuned universe". You can't get much more perfect than that.

You can still have perfection without the biblical god being in the equation.


This is one of those statements that brings us back to the need for one common and widely agreed upon definition of 'perfect'. The idea of a finely tuned universe implies that we think the odds of it existing are phenomenal. Yet, if you were to take a five gallon plastic bucket, throw some water and dirt in and seal it, some of the bacteria caught in it might die off. But, some of the bacteria might thrive for a long time in that environment. If that thriving bacteria could speak it would say, 'This bucket is a finely tuned universe. It's perfect." This makes the idea of 'perfect' to be up for any definition each individual wishes to give it.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
If a god has needs and wants, then he cannot be in a state of perfection.

Reaching WAY back to my catechism lessons ....
(I don't know if I'll even say it the way they did ... )

God created humanity out of pure love. He didn't create us out of something lacking in himself or a need for us to be here. He created us for us ... so that others could enjoy Him and be with Him. Creation does nothing to satisfy God .. it is there to share love.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

319 God created the world to show forth and communicate his glory. That his creatures should share in his truth, goodness and beauty - this is the glory for which God created them.


That's what 1/2 the Christians in the world say.
Take it or leave it. (i'm betting you'll leave it.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by jiggerj
If a god has needs and wants, then he cannot be in a state of perfection.

Reaching WAY back to my catechism lessons ....
(I don't know if I'll even say it the way they did ... )

God created humanity out of pure love. He didn't create us out of something lacking in himself or a need for us to be here. He created us for us ... so that others could enjoy Him and be with Him. Creation does nothing to satisfy God .. it is there to share love.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

319 God created the world to show forth and communicate his glory. That his creatures should share in his truth, goodness and beauty - this is the glory for which God created them.


That's what 1/2 the Christians in the world say.
Take it or leave it. (i'm betting you'll leave it.


No, no, no, for the time being I'll take it. For the sake of this discussion I'll accept that God created the world to show forth and communicate his glory. Now the question becomes, why is the earth only 4.5 billion years old? If this god has been around for, well, forever, and if he is perfectly all-knowing, then why aren't we seeing that the earth is a Googolplexian years old (see definition of Googolplexian below)? If it was a perfect idea for god to show forth and communicate his glory now, then it had to have been a perfect idea ten trillion years ago. The answer has to be that something changed god's thinking: loneliness, boredom, need, want...



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


I'd say that the conditions of the universe facilitated those bacteria to thrive in that plastic bucket. If some bacteria didn't survive, that would imply that they were alive before the experiment was performed, meaning still that the universe facilitated their existence beforehand.

Want an idea of what infinite is? Look around you. There are 22 quintillion atoms in a single grain of sand, one grain. Imagine how many make up the entire universe. It's unfathomable.

edit on 8-9-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj
 


I'd say that the conditions of the universe facilitated those bacteria to thrive in that paint bucket. If some bacteria didn't survive, that would imply that they were alive before the experiment was performed, meaning still that the universe facilitated their existence beforehand.


That's not the point. We are calling the universe perfect only because the conditions are right for us to survive in it. If another universe had only half the gravity, life might still be able to grow there. The way that life would grow would just be different from the way life grows here. And if that life formed any kind of intelligence, it would say that THAT universe is perfect.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


You would have to assume there are other universes in that case. As far as I know, we only have evidence of this universe, not others.

Take my grain of sand example. There are about 22 quintillion atoms in a single grain of sand. Now imagine how tiny that grain of sand is to the universe. Can you even imagine how many atoms make up the universe? Of course not, it's unknowable. The universe is so complex, yet it works exactly as it should.

The universe is perfect, and guess what, the biblical god still doesn't exist.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 02:18 PM
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This is what I wrote in the POCS.

"Maybe God is perfect, if you believe in God it seems to be a reasonable concept. I am a Christian and I believe in God, but I’m not sure that God is perfect nor am I sure that it matters for my faith in God. All powerful, yes, perfect, maybe. In my opinion, God did not create us to be perfect. Many believe that God desires us to strive towards perfection. I’m not sure if that is a reasonable goal. Should you obtain perfection, then what? Does this mean we also become static? If we are prefect, and change, are we still perfect? Even if you could become perfect, could you remain perfect? The more important reason to recognize the reality of why we are not perfect is that our imperfections and the imperfections of the world around us, force us to find ways to survive. This is the mechanism by which we evolve. This is how the struggle shapes us, and why the struggle is such an important part of our lives. If there is a reason why we are here, why God created us, I think it would be to evolve, to become better creatures, to be artistically and technologically creative, to explore our world to the farthest reaches. To become better creatures."

This is my take on the subject.

I would add, being like God, being creators is the most likely meaning of life to me. In this, we help God to grow, we are helping God by being creative.



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
Now the question becomes, why is the earth only 4.5 billion years old? If this god has been around for, well, forever, and if he is perfectly all-knowing, then why aren't we seeing that the earth is a Googolplexian years old

What makes you think we are his first created beings? What makes you think we are the last?
What makes you think that there aren't others? What makes you think this is the only dimension
that has creation in it? The bible uses the phrase .. in the fullness of time. So when God
decided it was time .. it was time. Everything has it's season. We are in our season.

(
Fun thread .. thanks for starting it!
)


loneliness, boredom, need, want...



posted on Sep, 8 2013 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Jigger, you are way over your own head in trying to figure this out.

God is transcendent. Beyond limited logic and reason.

Look at the existence of the present moment. Before you commit to an opinion on that moment, its gone. Existence is prior to opinion and bias.

So too is God






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