Without perfection there is no biblical god.

Many believers in the biblical god believe this entity to be perfect. I submit that there is no such thing as a state of perfection, and even if there were a biblical god, the universe would be proof that he isn't perfect.

Let's say that you have created a computer program that flashes a zero on your screen every ten seconds. Of course it isn't perfect because your computer will shut down whenever a lightning storm knocks out your power. Putting that aside, let's say that this program runs perfectly for five years. Every ten seconds a zero appears. Now, you just happen to be at your computer when, instead of a zero appearing, a one appears. Well, now we know that this program isn't perfect, right? A perfect program would keep on flashing that zero for ever and ever.

With me so far?

Now imagine this biblical god long before he created the universe. He is completely self-contained and completely self-sustained within his perfection. He needs nothing more. He wants for nothing more. For to need or want anything more would be a total contradiction of the idea of 'perfection'.

Just like that program calling up a zero on your monitor every ten seconds, god is existing in his perfection. Always perfect. Always perfect... But then, just like when the program calls up a one, this god decides he needs or wants to create the universe and us in it.

The creation of the universe would be a break from this god's steady state of perfection. For whatever reason he would have to create the universe, that reason would be based on a need or a want for more. This is not perfection.

So, if the biblical gods exists, then the universe proves he is not perfect.

Feel free to offer your opinions on this topic. To derail it by bashing me wouldn't hurt me in the least, but it would be quite a reflection on you!

Only problem is, as we are not perfect ourselves. How can we know what perfection really is? We have our own definitions of perfection but who is to say we are correct. I do understand your point though.

If there is a perfect God, who is to know that he/she/it isnt in the process of expanding that perfection through us. At this moment in time are we in the process of reaching that perfection? In order to become perfect do we need to know what imperfection is and to experience it? Good topic but I feel impossible for any of us to answer.

Isn't it perfect to increase perfection? I dont know, dont think any of us could know. We would need to be like God to have any idea.


Has he created us in order to grow into a state where we can share his perfection? If perfection was perfect, wouldn't it be perfect for it to expand??

reply to post by greavsie1971

Only problem is, as we are not perfect ourselves. How can we know what perfection really is? We have our own definitions of perfection but who is to say we are correct.
If there is a perfect God, who is to know that he/she/it isnt in the process of expanding that perfection through us

Nice!
You get right to the heart of the matter. We need a universal definition of 'perfection', and I don't think we can do that, seeing as we aren't perfect. But for the sake of this discussion I would have to say that, from what we would consider eternal or infinite perfection, if it expands, then it is not perfect. A perfect thing cannot become MORE perfect. Let's say that a current state (of anything) is perfect, then it expands for an hour. If it is perfect after that hour of expansion, then it couldn't have been perfect before it expanded.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

Only problem is, as we are not perfect ourselves. How can we know what perfection really is? We have our own definitions of perfection but who is to say we are correct.
If there is a perfect God, who is to know that he/she/it isnt in the process of expanding that perfection through us

Nice!

You get right to the heart of the matter. We need a universal definition of 'perfection', and I don't think we can do that, seeing as we aren't perfect. But for the sake of this discussion I would have to say that, from what we would consider eternal or infinite perfection, if it expands, then it is not perfect. A perfect thing cannot become MORE perfect. Let's say that a current state (of anything) is perfect, then it expands for an hour. If it is perfect after that hour of expansion, then it couldn't have been perfect before it expanded.

Im not saying he becomes more perfect. Perfect is perfect (whatever that is) once perfection is reached, it is and always should remain perfect. What Im saying is that perfection, (im assuming perfection is a good thing,) because it is perfect, would it be logical to grow (not in perfection) but in a way that it can be shared by other consciousnesses. Then we have to ask, in order for other consciousnesses to share in the perfection, they need to grow from being not perfect to becoming perfect themselves. Maybe in order to know and share the perfection you need to know imperfection first. If we do not know imperfection we are not perfect. Maybe that is the process we are currently going through. So perfection is not becoming more perfect as this would not make sense, it is just growing and creating other vessels to share the perfection. Because it is perfect and expanding the perfection to others, yet still remaining perfect itself. This is perfect......or is it?


In a nutshell, the perfect God is not changing. Just creating more external perfect beings. I would assume this is perfect.



off topic......just watched QI (british comedy quiz show) they said the word Jigger has more meanings that any other word in the English language.

If every thing was perfect nothing would exist.

reply to post by jiggerj


Perhaps God's definition of perfection is different than yours.

reply to post by jiggerj


A God imaging perfection would only be looking at himself. To have individuation, we must be immersed in imperfection so we can rise. What is baptism again? Immersion (Involution) so we can rise to new life (Evolve). Even our own simple understanding of physics and quantum mechanics demonstrates this. The strong nuclear force in physics adheres to invariable symmetry. Symmetry breaking is the weak force that does not follow invariable symmetry. If not for this fact, there could be no individuation of proton and electron in a state of high order and low entropy. The fact that an invariable (Unchanging / Always Good) neutral is between the positive and negative shows us the center balancing point of spin. The reason for the golden ration showing up in the spin of all things is directly caused by the fact that two are over one and out of perfect balance. The proton and neutron govern the electrons from invariant symmetry. As seen by the chiral nature of things, we see how two experience coalescence to make new things that are INDIVIDUAL to the first germ of existence. The universe is an example of overunity with a catalyst that does not get used up. Why does this matter to your thesis of why God would cast us into a lowered state?

The fact that we are tasked with the job of overcoming demonstrates the necessity of God's instructional design. He says that none are good, no not one. This is true. We cannot be good at all by comparison to his own invariable nature. This is the point of God allowing an imperfect image to exist and find its way back to the source. He states that we are in a refinery as children. This is also evident. He states that we cannot overcome ourselves, but we need a Savior who can provide a perfect sacrifice. This is also evident as our world crumbles. He states that faith in what is good over what can clearly be seen as evil is a necessity. Why? To get to unity (or even over-unity) we must see the point of it all. Giving over taking creates surplus. Taking over giving creates debt and chaos. What examples can you use to demonstrate this? Baking system. Wars. We are here to experience the weak force so that we can be heeled by the strong force.

Salvation is denying ignorance for truth. Denying truth is ignoring the point of the entire exercise. As drops of dew, faith in God is the only way to rise back to the ocean from which we come. You can try to be good enough, but you will always fail. Ask any Christian. It is impossible to overcome sin. Apart from Christ, we are all the same. With Christ as our Neutral, we have the opportunity to become positive. Transcending the mortal coil requires this.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Perhaps God's definition of perfection is different than yours.

In music, perfection can only come if the notes are adjusted slightly away from perfect half steps. A piano cannot be tuend to perfection. Members of a brass choir or orchestra can tweak the notes slightly to get perfect harmonies. This requires individuation of thought for each musician. A piano cannot do this. God created us to be less than perfect copies for a reason. Otherwise, God is imaging himself and not unique creations.

Perfection is right in front of you. Perfection is balance, and you must take the good with the bad.

Explain how the mechanics of the universe and its ability to harbor intelligent life is not perfect and you may have a point. Everything from the biggest galaxy to the smallest particle work in unison and as it should. Every action has a reaction, even at the smallest scale on the complete opposite side of the universe.

Perfection is infinite, count all the grains of sand on Earth then multiply that by trillions and trillions and trillions and you will see the perfection that is the universe. A grain of sand, one grain, has about 22,000,000,000,000,000,000 (quintillion!) atoms. Now compare the size of that grain of sand to the beach, then that beach to the Earth, then the Earth to the universe and you will have an idea about how precise and perfect the universe truly is.

Ignore the subjective view of this world, and the perfection of the universe will come to light.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

Only problem is, as we are not perfect ourselves. How can we know what perfection really is? We have our own definitions of perfection but who is to say we are correct.
If there is a perfect God, who is to know that he/she/it isnt in the process of expanding that perfection through us

Nice!

You get right to the heart of the matter. We need a universal definition of 'perfection', and I don't think we can do that, seeing as we aren't perfect. But for the sake of this discussion I would have to say that, from what we would consider eternal or infinite perfection, if it expands, then it is not perfect. A perfect thing cannot become MORE perfect. Let's say that a current state (of anything) is perfect, then it expands for an hour. If it is perfect after that hour of expansion, then it couldn't have been perfect before it expanded.

I don't see it this way. Apart from knowing opposites, we could never appreciate perfect bliss.

From Edgar Allen Poe

"All things are either good or bad by comparison. A sufficient analysis will show that pleasure in all cases, is but the contrast of pain. Positive pleasure is a mere idea. To be happy at any one point we must have suffered at the same. Never to suffer would have been never to have been blessed. But it has been shown that, in the inorganic life, pain cannot be; thus the necessity for the organic. The pain of the primitive life of Earth, is the sole basis of the bliss of the ultimate life in Heaven."

god is from paper
written by a man

embellished though out the centuries

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Perfection is right in front of you. Perfection is balance, and you must take the good with the bad.

Explain how the mechanics of the universe and its ability to harbor intelligent life is not perfect and you may have a point. Everything from the biggest galaxy to the smallest particle work in unison and as it should. Every action has a reaction, even at the smallest scale on the complete opposite side of the universe.

Perfection is infinite, count all the grains of sand on Earth then multiply that by trillions and trillions and trillions and you will see the perfection that is the universe. A grain of sand, one grain, has about 22,000,000,000,000,000,000 (quintillion!) atoms. Now compare the size of that grain of sand to the universe and you will have an idea how precise and perfect the universe truly is.

Ignore the subjective view of this world, and the perfection of the universe will come to light.

Oh my. I agree with you on this. It's the whole view and not simply the map of the territory. This is the mistake that this OP makes in criticizing the parts without seeing the whole by intent of the Creator of it all.

Originally posted by Lil Drummerboy
god is from paper
written by a man

Father, in Hebew, is Aleph Bet (Alphabet). Son is Bet Nun (House of Seed). The Son is called the Word in John 1.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

Just to show you how accurate you are, the Son of God became a man. He was the Living Word. You are correct that He created everything.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

By his blood, we can be salvaged from the waters of the mother.

Mother in Hebrew is Aleph Mem. Mem is water and Aleph is strength. Father is Aleph Bet (Strength of the House). Son is Bet Nun (House of Seed). DNA is the shadow of Words and letters comprising every amino acid in your body.

reply to post by jiggerj

. . . and even if there were a biblical god . . .

A biblical God and a logical go or scientific god are not the same thing.
A biblical God makes it rain so people can live.
He does not create universes since that sort of thing has nothing to do with whether you live or die.
In the Bible, God is perfect because He makes it rain on the good people and the bad.
Since that is an observable fact, then it is proof that God is perfect.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Perfection is right in front of you. Perfection is balance, and you must take the good with the bad.

Explain how the mechanics of the universe and its ability to harbor intelligent life is not perfect and you may have a point. Everything from the biggest galaxy to the smallest particle work in unison and as it should. Every action has a reaction, even at the smallest scale on the complete opposite side of the universe.

Perfection is infinite, count all the grains of sand on Earth then multiply that by trillions and trillions and trillions and you will see the perfection that is the universe. A grain of sand, one grain, has about 22,000,000,000,000,000,000 (quintillion!) atoms. Now compare the size of that grain of sand to the beach, then that beach to the Earth, then the Earth to the universe and you will have an idea about how precise and perfect the universe truly is.

Ignore the subjective view of this world, and the perfection of the universe will come to light.

edit on 4-9-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

I agree, the universe is perfect. Are we perfect? Apart from God, does perfection exist outside the universe do you think?

reply to post by greavsie1971


Only God is perfect right? So if the universe is perfect, it must be God. We are part of the universe, so we are part of God, the conscious part. We are God experiencing itself subjectively in my opinion.

For a logical argument to be proved you need to have the terminology defined.The premise of your argument is... God is not perfect because Gods creation is not perfect therefore God does not exist.

Perfect is the key word that needs to be defined.You said you were imperfect(as is everyone) then the point was made how can someone /something that is imperfect define perfection which is a true statement....they can't.Which defeats the true outcome of the argument since the key word can't be defined and it is what the whole premise of the argument is based on.

Of course you can "believe" there is no God because in your perception everything isn't perfect.However your argument cannot be proved nor can the opposite be proved(there is a God). Both are based in belief and belief cannot know the Truth it can only believe what it doesn't know.

The bottom line is God cannot be proved by belief only by knowing and knowing there is a God can only be given(revealed) by God and cannot be proved to those that believe one way or the other.

It has the same basic quandary as quantum physics uncertainty principle that states the more precisely the position of some particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa.We live in a universe of uncertainty that changes by observation(perception).We can only search for truth in vain because it is nether here nor there and can't be observed ...only known.Someone said that once... and it was ignored and is still ignored...and the vain search continues.

reply to post by jiggerj


God is a perpetual Creator. You assumed that God was creating "nothing" ( 0 ) and then suddenly He created the Universe ( 1 ) and stopped.
Things also don't exist in the Universe just by the virtue of their existence, they need to be sustained in that state and God is perpetually doing that.
You also used TIME as factor to judge God's perfection. That is just wrong as time is a creation and not an independent entity which has to be obeyed by God too.
You said that at a certain point God was doing nothing and 10sec later He Created the Universe which is again wrong, time didnt exist before Universe.

Basically you are judging God by parameters that are themselves created or without complete.. forget complete, without any knowledge.

The only proofs of His perfection that you can get is watching,hearing,feeling His amazing Creations but His perfection is not limited by them. Its just a small expression of it.

P.S.- I do not agree with the biblical ideas completely. I am a muslim and my understanding of God is based on Qur'an.

reply to post by jiggerj


I think it depends on how one defines perfect. Humans only understand it as an abstract concept but don't really know what perfection is or if it even exists because we've never experienced it. So, I'm not sure how much can be said about it.

It's like infinity. We understand it only as an abstract concept, but not in any physical way. We may want to define perfection as a never changing steady state, but we don't really know what perfection is. It may not be a steady state at all, it may be an ever changing creating/destroying entity or cycle that in the long term always does everything to "perfection", whatever that means.

For example there's issues with micro-perfection vs macro-perfection. Like in an ecosystem. We could say it's not perfect or sad that a bunny gets eaten by a wild animal or runs out of food, but at the macro level the ecosystem works fine because we're not over run by trillions of bunnies and the circle of life goes on. At the macro level everything is working fine and it's hard to argue about perfection when, as finite humans, we can't see the whole macro picture.

So, I don't think we could ever say anything objective about perfection. We just end up arguing about our own subjective definition.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

Only God is perfect right? So if the universe is perfect, it must be God. We are part of the universe, so we are part of God, the conscious part. We are God experiencing itself subjectively in my opinion.

Is the universe perfect? Your logic depends on an assumption that I'm not sure we can prove one way or the other.