Bad Christians (Haters) Giving Good Christians (Lovers) a Bad Reputation

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

The answer is "rest".

You do not desire it, so therefore, you cannot know what it means.

Edit to add: hence why you will not understand until you suffer horribly, or you receive understanding by divine revelation.

edit on 9/4/2013 by TarzanBeta because: Yes.

After watching your debate with Afterinfinity it is evident that the Bible is true to it's word. The world cannot understand God, or his Word because they don't know him. But they do a good dance though.

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

The answer is "rest".

You do not desire it, so therefore, you cannot know what it means.

Edit to add: hence why you will not understand until you suffer horribly, or you receive understanding by divine revelation.

edit on 9/4/2013 by TarzanBeta because: Yes.

After watching your debate with Afterinfinity it is evident that the Bible is true to it's word. The world cannot understand God, or his Word because they don't know him. But they do a good dance though.

Actually it is evident, that AfterInfinity is one of 'the very few' on this thread talking rational sense.

@OP

The people who made the video are basically attention whores, making a scene to promote their podcast.

Imagine a group of Christians trolling an LGBT event in the same way. It wouldn't be funny or even be called "trolling" anymore.

Originally posted by Fromabove
reply to post by halfoldman

 

I can see you haven't understood much of the Bible have you, I mean with all the things said trying to point out the evils of the Christian and Jewish God.

Over there (I'm guessing Europe) I guess you can punish people for what they think or say, but here in the USA we can still speak our minds and dissent when we want to. Over there I'm guessing that people can't handle anything that might hurt their feelings, would that be right? Else why prohibit free speech.

I haven't pointed out the "evil" of any God, simply that those who want to use the Bible with claims of doing so literally should be consistent, and not selective literalists.
Selective literalism without historical and textual context has indeed led to many evils, including witch-hunts, pogroms against the Jews as "Christ-killers", and justified many forms of oppression, including apartheid.
Some groups still use the Bible to that effect, while others just have an obsession with homosexuality.
This shows the dangers of using verses to justify and defend personal prejudices.
Threats of putting gays to death (while ignoring the death sentence for other Biblical crimes) are highly concerning in parts of Africa (as indicated on my profile, I'm posting from South Africa).
Under the influence of American fundamentalists Uganda has already attempted to impose the death sentence for homosexuality, and the violent rhetoric alone has resulted in the murder of gay people.
Witch-hunting is also defended by Old Testament verses, and people accused of being witches have been violently murdered, while children accused of witchcraft have been tortured by pastors and abandoned by their parents.

70 Percent of South Africans are Christian of some variety, and US-styled fundamentalist groups are free to print, broadcast and preach their propaganda, also against Islam and other religions (some of whom also use parts of the Bible for their own propaganda).
However, publicly calling for the killing or physical harming of people because of race, gender or sexual orientation can be reported as hate speech to the Human Rights Commission.
That has included the banning of the song "Kill the Boer" (although the ANC claimed that "Boer" didn't literally refer to whites, but was a metaphor for apartheid, nevertheless the song was sung in a context where thousands of white farmers were actually being murdered), or a black pastor who called for the killing of whites.
www.iol.co.za...
Of course I can't say what the Commission would decide if the sect in the OP was in SA, but I think their rhetoric could be grounds to make a case.
The question would be whether it's justifying killing "homosexuals" (a term and identity that originated in the 19th century) at present, or whether it's simply using a translation of the KVJ to point out that homosexuality is a sin.
There would be an equal response if somebody called for the execution of all evangelical Christians.
There's a difference between even robust opinion and hate speech.

If you consider some of the things ignored by inconsistent literalists as showing the Abrahamic God as "evil" then that's your value judgement; not mine.
Some of them might simply be very inconvenient to the religious industry, such as the laws against usury or divorce.
Others would be impossible to apply in parts of the world that no longer practice slavery and protect the sexual rights of girls and women.
Sure, some would be considered "evil" laws written by men a very long time ago, even by most modern Christian morality. But, whether they were evil in a historical context would require discussions with theologians and historians to see how they were applied as literal laws and by what authority, or whether they were laws regarding ritual purity, or how they were responses to specific cultural practices at the time and so forth.
There's many different interpretations and approaches.

Furthermore, I don't see how I have misunderstood the Bible simply by pointing out direct injunctions from the Bible that literalists in the OP selectively choose to ignore.
Indeed, I think they have never understood it, at least not in a Christian sense, but that's my opinion.
To be consistent they would have to agitate for all the other laws to be taken literally, and yes that would make Christianity seem evil and unacceptable to many people.

Some fundamentalist groups would actually like to agitate for more of the laws to be taken literally (which has been one response to my post).
Others might have different interpretations, perhaps focusing on the loving aspects of Christ's message, and salvation through faith.
Otherwise I'm not sure on your specific argument, except that you think it's great that in your country people can call for the execution of others for "religious crimes", I suppose even if it should target whatever group you belong to. Of course you'd be quite happy with that.

sk0rpi0n
@OP

The people who made the video are basically attention whores, making a scene to promote their podcast.

I'd sorta agree with ya there. But that pretty much is the same for every single other person who is involved in media promoting whatever it is they choose to promote, so I'm not sure if pointing that out is really something we didn't already know.

Imagine a group of Christians trolling an LGBT event in the same way. It wouldn't be funny or even be called "trolling" anymore.

I don't know. It might be called trolling, but you're right about it not being funny! In fact, that is pretty much what we have here in the video too. The LGBT event in this case was the initial protest of the pastor. Which resulted in the Christian "Trolling" that event. Then finally with these media podcast people then "trolling the trollers" or "bullying the bullies" as they self titled it. Maybe they should have called it "Trolling the Trollers who were Trolling the Pastor". Hmmmm....maybe that is just too confusing.....I don't know....

But, once again I would have to agree that the Radical Christians were not funny, at least in the sense that they weren't intending to be seen as humorous in there protesting.

reply to post by mOjOm

Do you Loving Christians believe these people with all their hate messages to be more or less against God than say an athiest or agnostic??? More specifically, are these Hate Monger Christians better off spiritually than a non-believer who simply keeps his ideas to himself???

The flaw in your OP is in assuming that because the people in the video preach against sin (wrong doing) as defined by the Holy Bible, that they are "haters". If they hated you, they would keep silent and let your destruction come upon you without saying a word. All we are, are watchers at the watch towers giving warnings for the world to make it right with Christ before his return.

Now I personally don't care much for pointing fingers at others as my own list of sins behind me, points the finger at me, but in Christ you do not have to be a sinner.

If no one said anything, how would you know your destruction is coming? Would you pick up a Holy Bible and read it on your own? Would you even know it existed if no one ever preached from it? Would you know that you could be saved from your impending doom by turning your life over to Jesus Christ? If the scriptures were just an ordinary book sitting on a shelf no one would look twice at it, how then could you know anything about it? Because Jesus saw to it to pass it on to Paul and the Jerusalem 12 2000 years ago, you can know of it today and because of Christ's command to preach the good news, you now hear of these things.

Know this then, that we have all done wrong in the eyes of the Lord and fallen short of the Glory of God. If you have ever lied, or stolen, gossiped or talked bad about someone behind their backs, committed murder, engaged in homosexuality or promiscuity or unmarried sex (fornication), desired or lusted after another man's things or his wife or had sex with another man's wife. All these things and more, you are under penalty of death, the second death which is of the spirit and there is only one way you will not taste the earnings of your labors and that is through Jesus Christ. That is what these people you callously label "haters" are warning you of. If they hated you all they have to do is keep quiet and let you slip away into oblivion.

As for Fred Phelps and his family, i do not consider them a Christian church because they are a family of lawyers who boycott soldiers funerals and gay parades so someone will get angry and come over and punch them in the face so the Phelps' can sue them for money and that is not the act of Christians.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


lonewolf,

yelling at people to follow a God that they haven't seen is foolishness.

If the first sign of a Christian that a lot of those people have seen is a bunch of yelling, angry, lunatics, and Christians are supposed to be representations of the Father (as Jesus is), then people are not going to be interested in our Father.

This society IS WAY FAR GONE from the societies in the past.

This society is so far beyond the adulterer ancient Israel. This society is so far removed from the adulterer Sodom, and the adulterer Egypt.

Those societies STILL HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THE FATHER.

This society does not.

Open up your eyes and look around.

This is the generation that has never seen God in any way, shape, or form.

Because Christians, in peace time, played nuclear family and government instead of helping the weak and the disturbed.

Now the children of those Christians see only with physical eyes, and the children of the atheists see with spiritual eyes because of their suffering, but see not the Father because Christians have forsaken Him.

So then, how in the world do you expect people to take the rants and the ravings of Hell-bent Christians?

So therefore, this is not the Spirit that seeks to scream into the ears of the world.

If you want those people to be saved, like God does, you will take care of them instead of reaming them out; without expecting for change or any such thing. Without any obligation. Simply because you have the love of the Father.

OR have you not seen how evil prevails in this world and the good die in the worst pain imaginable in hospital beds alone?

So therefore, God blesses and curses whom He pleases. And He has seen fit to bless many that are without Him - So that they may in due time come to see Him and understand Him.

But as long as ANYONE is backing up anything like what these fools have done, then you cannot be right.

And some of us in our young foolishness and because of the zeal which was given us and yet manipulated into us by those who sought to bring us up, we have done these things; and we have blamed them for our problems and our anger caused us to lash out;; which thing they are ALREADY ACCUSTOMED TO, and the know that spirit, and that is the spirit of hatred; NOT GOOD.

Or why else would they gravitate to the things which they do? Because, to them, they find a spirit of acceptance; which thing they never before had.

Now if the world is capable of producing a spirit of acceptance that overcomes the hatred of self-proclaimed Christians, then how much more power do the children of God have to offer a spirit of acceptance?

And I've seen it first hand. A true Christian has a thousand times more power than the desires of the world.

There is a girl we know. She is orphaned from Russia. Her mom was on drugs and just gave her away. So therefore she was sent to America to have a new mom.

Her new mom was not much better at all.

At any rate, this is a beautiful girl. She is tattooed all over her right side, which is the only thing that makes her stand out from a model and a rock star.

So she is a lesbian, or bi, or whatever you want to call it. My wife and I met her in the park one day walking with a guy which she claimed was not her boyfriend. We only talked for a little bit.

Then a couple of weeks later, my wife and I and our 2 kids were sitting at Stewart's (a convenience store chain up here in upstate New York). Well the girl walks up and says, "I don't know how, but I just knew that you were the ones that I could talk to. I hope I don't sound weird." We said, "No, no, it's okay. Come sit."

(by the way, we have not told her we are Christian. We have not tried to tell her anything about being Christian, at all. We just speak properly, and well, and offer good thoughts.)

So she tells us that she got pregnant from her not-boyfriend. And she was terrified because her girlfriend was going to kill her, and her mom was going to kill her, and this and that. And her not-boyfriend was being quite possessive of her (I noticed it, and I could feel it, but I said nothing).

She didn't know if she was going to keep the baby.

My wife and I told her that she should because that wouldn't be fair; what if she had been killed and not sent over here? Though the argument wasn't a very good one because her life hasn't been too wonderful either.

But we also told her that we like the way she interacts with our kids, and she would be good at it.

But at the same time, that not-boyfriend was being quite possessive of her; knowing that she has a girlfriend and knowing how she is- it seems like he thought he was going to "fix her".

Continued onto the next post.

But obviously, you don't fix someone by taking control of them; not when it is not their choice.

AT any rate, she was giving some gifts to our kids, and she was sorry to leave us at Stewart's. She went on her way.

We didn't see her for about another month. A week ago today, now.

We were sitting at the same Stewart's, but at the picnic bench outside.

She was walking up the sidewalk, and she was trying to avoid us, I noticed. But we called her over anyway. And then I said, "Is this going to be a cool chat, or is this going to be a forced obligatory awkward session?" And she said, "A cool chat!" And I said, "Okay, I was just trying to give you a way out if you didn't want to talk."

Now I had to go to the car for a minute in the parking garage, and I also had a feeling that I should let my wife and her chat for a couple of minutes without me there to hear, so as not to cause her discomfort.

When I came back from the car, it was apparent what choice she made. But the situation in general was much worse than even that.

I won't get too personal or into the details, because it was deep. But her girlfriend mauled her and kicked her out. Her mom disowned her. That not-boyfriend guy, who knows. So now she is living in a shed, and these are colder nights already, and she has hardly any warmth, and she is desperately trying to regain her relationship with her girlfriend and all the lost ideas she has.

Anyway, we're not trying to tell her that she is crazy.

We are there to listen. We are there to make her feel better, but not to give bad advice. That's all.

We dropped her off at her little shed. She showed us the apartments that her girlfriend lives at. They are actually pretty nice. She said she knows the landlord and he is the one letting her stay there in his little shed. She said she would even talk to him about getting us into those apartments, which are nice.

But, she KNOWS who we are.

She could feel it. She knew it by what our values are. She knew it by how we wanted to care. She didn't want us to leave her, and we didn't want to leave her. But it is what it is. And she does not have much respect for men, and yet she hugged my wife and squeezed her and then hugged me and squeezed me. And loved on our kids.

And if anyone asked her, now, although we said nothing, if they said, "(Girl), are Tarzan and his wife Christian?" She would say, "Oh my God, yeah, they have to be."

And now when people receive love when they are down, then they therefore want to share that love with others that are hurting. And that is what goes viral.

Now she is just one story, but there are many I could tell. And I've personally seen people completely changed from poor to giving money away and from trashed to energetic and happy and sharing joy. Sometimes in days, sometimes in months.

Everyone has HEARD the name Jesus Christ. But until you reveal Him, ain't no one gonna claim they've ever seen such a one as Him. But once you have revealed Him, you needn't say His name; they've already heard His name. Now they have met Him and understand Him finally, and they can relate.

That is God.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

This society is so far beyond the adulterer ancient Israel. This society is so far removed from the adulterer Sodom, and the adulterer Egypt.

Not true, many seek him everyday and more come to him. You cannot even believe Jesus is Lord unless it be by the Holy Spirit.

Those societies STILL HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THE FATHER.

If they did they would never have been destroyed.

This is the generation that has never seen God in any way, shape, or form.

18 generations have never seen him. It's been 18 generations since Christ was here in the flesh. Yet we can see him everyday in the smallest of things, even the tiniest of miracles, or in the hearts of his people. We can see him in his mercy and grace, that though a great evil sweeps across this world, his judgment is being held back still.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You cannot even believe Jesus is Lord unless it be by the Holy Spirit.

That statement, by itself, lends credence to the possibility that it is just an illusion. The "Holy Spirit" itself is not even a proven scientific phenomenon.

...Sorry, just playing the Devil's Advocate here. Pun intended.

18 generations have never seen him. It's been 18 generations since Christ was here in the flesh. Yet we can see him everyday in the smallest of things, even the tiniest of miracles, or in the hearts of his people. We can see him in his mercy and grace, that though a great evil sweeps across this world, his judgment is being held back still.

So the only means of witnessing this great and glorious and all-powerful omniscient being is through speculation? Interpretation by choice and not by incontrovertible and exclusive evidence? Sounds a little weak.

And please remember, part of the reason I'm here is because part of me is hoping to be proven wrong one day. I would hate to find out that your god is real, but I would hate even more to find out that I'd somehow deluded myself for my entire life. It will take a lot to convince me, but I'm willing to find out.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


How blind are you?

People are seeking "an answer", but they're only finding foolish zealots, which proselytize the weak and make them twice the spawn of hell that they are.

Or do you not remember that Jesus said that is what the pharisaic Jews do? (which is what today the self-proclaimed Christians have become).

And He said, "It is only by the Holy Spirit that one professes that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, and also, is Lord" (for there are multiple verses explaining, you should know them); but also, do you not remember that Caiaphas, though he was a FAILED JEW, was High Priest the same year Jesus was killed, and Caiaphas was consenting to Jesus' death, and yet he prophesied of Jesus' death, saying, "It is good for everybody that one man should die for many." And yet Caiaphas was evil. So therefore, the Holy Spirit does not just indwell the good when speaking; for God still works through the self-proclaimed Christians today so as to preserve His name; not because they are deserving of it, and it won't be for very much longer at that.

Also, how borderline foolish do you have to be to believe that a Father destroys those that never knew Him? That's pointless. He destroys those that were given opportunity to know Him, and denied it.

Those societies had great knowledge of the Father. Hence why they were destroyed; because they denied it.

THIS GENERATION DOES NOT HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FATHER.

They have heard the "names", but they know nothing of it. Love doesn't even mean the same thing anymore.

If you had ever shown love to someone that had never witnessed love before, then you couldn't possibly know what that means, or how much of an impact that really makes; when you give love without expecting anything in return at all, and keep giving, and having joy about it (instead of worry about how much will I have left? or will they use it the way I think they should use it? or whatever other stupid, foolish, controlling thoughts one might have when "giving").

This society doesn't even --comprehend-- that. So therefore, this society does not know the Father. And as you know, the entire world must hear of the good news of Jesus Christ (that means, actually experiencing the love;; not just hearing words or names in passing, and seeing angry people throw fits over the very same words or names);

Now the east has many Christians spreading the good news; and where there is lots of true love, there is also lots of evil. And you know the east is in disarray. There is a balance - and for as much good as there is, there will be as much evil trying to kill the good; but because the good can never be quenched, the good will always be; and because the good is willing to be patient to allow those that allow evil to retreat from their foolish ways, then therefore, the good will not yet quench the evil.

But as you can see, the west is utterly stagnant. There is not much very good, and there is not much very evil.

You do remember what God said about that?

"Be you either hot or cold, for if you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth."

Now imagine you're spitting onto the ground. How far does something fall, and how much does it break down because of the saliva, and how hard is the fall, and how far do the pieces fly, and what kind of mess is made?

So therefore, there WILL be some big problems in the near future.

But also like Jesus said, we will be really surprised when we find out who is -actually- saved, and who is not.

For they will say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your Name? Did we not cast out demons in your name? And He will say, 'Get away from me. I never knew you.' "

Because these are the same that when the Lord told them to do something (and these same still don't believe the Lord speaks, when He does, they say, "Yes Lord. Yes Lord." But then they never go do the work. But then there are some that say, "NO, Lord, I can't take that, please no!" But then they go do it, because of their faith.

And how many times have we seen Him work? How about with Peter? Who had to be constantly reamed out for judging by the flesh, and ignoring the gentiles, and considering them disgusting and immoral, whereas Jesus said, "Call not unclean what I have called clean!"

And I could go on.

But how foolish do you have to be to resort to the same pharisaic mistakes? When will you learn that the law exists to prevent evil; not to enslave the good with evil! For if the evil will manipulate the law for their own ends (making themselves righteous), then how much more should the good escape the law in order to better administer the law, whose end is truly love, mercy, and grace!

And you judge by sight still.

This society is utterly and totally backwards. So therefore, in order to reach people, and to share His power, we need to be backwards for their sakes!

And I could continue further.

But those of you that think you are righteous in the Lord's work, you are kicking against the pricks.

And until you suffer, or the Lord stops you in your tracks and blinds you, you aren't going to believe it.

And even then, you won't believe; but Saul did, because of his amazing zeal.

But this that I saw, is not true zeal. This is hypocrisy, and shaking, and bitterness. See how they do not know what to say, but to repeat a few verses, and stumble in their thoughts, and stumble in their words; not having confidence, unless their screaming and sounding like a KKK rally.

There is nothing beautiful to be seen. This is not the voice of the Lord.

For the voice crying out in the wilderness is pristine, and loud, but royal, and wise, and yet fierce, but merciful.

When God on the mountain was speaking to the children of Israel their sins and their laws, they BEGGED Moses, "Please, ask Him to stop, He's killing us; it's so loud and terrifying and true!"

And Moses begged the Lord, and the LORD STOPPED.

And He told Moses to go onto the mountain and there He would administer the law a man worthy.

The Lord has mercy and does not desire to cause problems. But to get attention, He does want indeed.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

How blind are you?

I think you need to check yourself, your post seems a bit angry. You think this generation doesn't know anything about the Lord?

Guess you don't know much about history.

I think what you need to do is quit pointing the finger at others and start looking up, your judgment of others is going to be your own judge.

Don't you get it? We're all sinners and we all do wrong and not one of us is perfect. Yet you have the nerve to ask me if i'm blind?

The only way to know the Father (God) is through the Son Jesus Christ. The only way to know Jesus Christ is if the Spirit of God reveals Him to you. And the only ones that will come to Him are His children, all others will not and will remain lost forever.

The Christian needs to understand that this world is not our world, and the god of this world is not our God. This earth will not belong to us until Jesus returns. Now, trying to go up to a child of this world who's god is the devil and say to them, stop sinning will only get you attacked, hurt, or killed. Pointing out their sin to them as if they were backsliding periodical children is futile as they will merely reject what you say. Leave them be. Let them sin if they want to, what's important is for you (the Christian) to keep from doing as they do in this world. What's important is to tell them about Jesus Christ and how He can save "people" from "sin, pain, and death".

Now, you may ask why I say let them sin if they want to, and I'll tell you why. They are only doing what they know to do. It is their nature to sin. They live in darkness and wander around not even knowing their is a God, and even if they believe there is a god, they don't know the true God and create their own, even themselves as gods saying there is no god.

The people of this world don't like you. They want you to leave them alone and let them run the world they want to run it. You are not of the world. Your kingdom is coming and God's will will be done on this earth just as His will is done in heaven, but not right now. The world is not evil enough yet to make God destroy it. Anti-Christ is coming and then shortly after that God will come.

As Christians we are told to pray, seek God, and be patient, and endure until the end. So let's do that. And don't worry about who judges because the Bible has declared the judgements of the Lord, so there will be no escape and no one ever gets away. Be at peace, and don't let the things and actions of the world trouble you.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


This generation doesn't know anything about the Lord.

And I know the answer to how blind you are: as blind as I once was.

It's not meant to be an insult, but food for thought.

Nothing I say is meant to be an insult, but for introspection.

We are indeed all sinners. But let's not rest on our laurels.

reply to post by TarzanBeta


No one does anymore. It doesn't help that the majority of Christian principles, doctrines and traditions are taken from practices now commonly regarded as Satanic. It's like hating your parents, never acknowledging the fact that you are their child. The ignorance is appalling.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Now THAT is nearly dead-on.

Rituals have replaced love, yet again.

Religion has replaced responsibility, yet again.

And they even say it, and claim to be against it, and yet -continue to do it-.

reply to post by TarzanBeta


The whole point of paganism was to respect and appreciate and cherish EVERYTHING. Not just your fellow man. Not just people who agree with your political persuasion. Animals. Nature. The planet. The universe. Paganism was the art of being in a relationship with absolutely EVERYTHING.

But then Christianity took over. Christianity came, it saw, it conquered. And now all we care about is being anything except what we are right now. We spend our whole lives preparing for the next. We forget what's right in front of us because we're so concerned about crossing a bridge we haven't even reached yet. Christianity has ruined a perfectly good relationship.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


The reason why paganism was bad is because it led to the worship of creation.

There are pagans that say they do not worship creation. Fine. But that is the inevitable result; hence why it is paganism. No "ism" is really required.

We should enjoy the nature around us, and be a part of it. But we cannot. We are foreigners in this land. If we could, then it would have already happened.

It is not the fault of Christianity in its purest form that these things happen. It is the fault of people that came in, ravenous wolves, and destroyed what was good. And what was good was to appreciate the One who gave us all these things to enjoy; and in order to do that, it meant to fully enjoy all things given to us, and all people given to us; but to never consider those things to be enjoyed as those things which give joy of themselves, but as gifts from the One who created them.

God is not looking for us to be beaten over the head with meter sticks and told over and over to say thank you over and over and not give you a second to enjoy the life He gave you. That's -not- the point.

But when one starts attributing the power of creation to itself, instead of realizing from Whom it came, that is where the trespass occurs.

Now this modern time, pagans may not be worshiping creation. Fine. Good. So what.

And because of the way evil has infiltrated that which was once good (as per usual), people judge that thing instead of being perceptive enough to realize it was the evil that invaded that did wrong; not the good thing itself.

For example, you can't blame a system for failing. You understand that a system fails because people allow the system to control them.

Now a system is designed to prevent evil. But evil will manipulate a system to its own end. Therefore, why are people, in their ignorance, allowing evil to command them via the system?

So therefore, they have allowed themselves submission to the very evil they think they are battling. But they are not.

They are serving that evil because they stay within that system.

And that system becomes ritualism (which thing before hand was for the beginning knowledge, to come to understand truth, and not to use it as a means of eternal punishment or negligence: "I am saved because I do this thing all the time!" or "I do so good because I do this thing all the time." -- at which point one should probably change up the routine so as to better serve instead of fixating on their fantasy bubble)

As well, people created systems for themselves, because they saw that a system worked; because it didn't work completely for them because it didn't mold to the way they believe things should be. So they created new systems for themselves. And that system became attractive to all those that aligned with the same desire to be irresponsible to whatever parts were left out.

So then therefore, it doesn't matter what your system is.

If you adhere to a "system", you're going to fail.

But if you understand a few guidelines, then you're malleable, then you're mold-able, there-in you learn to adventure, and experience more, and share more, and all things regain their color, and people are no longer demonized because of surface judgments;

But this is not a perfect world, not yet. So therefore, the system is still here. So as long as the system is still here, there will be evil manipulating it to its own end. And the enemy knows how to manipulate the system, and any new system, no matter how benign the system appears.

But what the enemy doesn't have is the ability to enforce a couple of powers that the good are able to possess.

Love is fashionable. Meaning, it is perfect and requires no system, because it is not evil, it is not manipulation, it is not thievery, so therefore, why does there need to be a system to keep it in check? But it works for the good of all things. So therefore, no system can quench love.

Courage is fashionable. meaning, no matter what situation arises, Courage has ground to stand. For courage cannot be destroyed; only the body within which it dwells, and if there are none with courage, then there are surely other bodies, and that courage will inevitably indwell the new body because of the act which destroyed the previous body.

Wisdom is fashionable. meaning. nothing can contain wisdom. It is so far outside the system, it is so far outside the realm of perception, outside the realm of our existence-- wisdom is the perfect understanding of all things (and partial wisdom is the perfect understand of a few things). Wisdom cannot be destroyed, for as long as there something is, then wisdom must also exist.

Systems cannot contain these at all, ever. These cannot be destroyed.

So, if you want to be truly good, learn these powers. Then no matter what the system is, you live; until the time you are judged for their use.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

The reason why paganism was bad is because it led to the worship of creation.

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with that. What's wrong with venerating creation? The point of creating is not to be recognize. If you are creating to be recognized, you don't deserve the recognition. You create to give people a product or service that will make life better for them. You create to fill a necessity. If that necessity is attention-seeking, then your creation will suffer for it.

But when one starts attributing the power of creation to itself, instead of realizing from Whom it came, that is where the trespass occurs.

The solution to that dilemma is simple: let God get off of his obstinate ass and come down and say hello. If he chooses not to do that, then let the consequences be on his own head. He cannot blame us for his inaction.

For example, you can't blame a system for failing. You understand that a system fails because people allow the system to control them.

That's what religion is.

Now a system is designed to prevent evil. But evil will manipulate a system to its own end. Therefore, why are people, in their ignorance, allowing evil to command them via the system?

I'm not sure I believe in evil.

So therefore, they have allowed themselves submission to the very evil they think they are battling. But they are not.

They are serving that evil because they stay within that system.

Even if evil does exist, I'm not sure we are in the position to understand nearly as well as you seem to be implying.

So, if you want to be truly good, learn these powers. Then no matter what the system is, you live; until the time you are judged for their use.

Humans were never meant to be wholly constructive or wholly destructive. Unfortunately, they are convinced they must choose one or the other. The concept of balance is repulsive to them, apparently.