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My name is Tom Carey, and I have spent the past 22 years researching the Roswell incident. Ask me an

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posted on Sep, 24 2013 @ 10:19 PM
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You can forget about debating with certain people here on the notion some UFO's may be piloted by aliens its like banging your head against a wall they will not entertain the idea or consider it a possibilty.

These are the same people who ignore the vast amount of data already out there credible reports (such as multiple witnesses, police, pilot, and military reports) and trace evidence all of which is worthless in their minds.

They accuse believers making leaps of logic, unaware that theyre doing it themselves and will at times resort to thinly veiled insults.

Funny really..it wouldnt bother me so much but these people have the nerve to call themselves skeptics when what theyre really are pseudo skeptics, debunkers and at worse trolls.

I would say save your breath these people have already made their minds up.




posted on Sep, 24 2013 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by K-PAX-PROT
 



pseudo-scientific rebuttals of the possibility of ET intelligence's having a much greater understanding or technological sophistication are not acceptable, there has and to date been no credible evidence to prove beyond doubt that there are no ET intelligence's out there with the technological capabilities required to be in a stealth observational agenda with us, none


Do you understand the logic of what you are saying? Proving that an unknown is NOT something is impossible. So essentially anyone can make up anything off the top of their heads to account for an unknown and to prove that the explaination doesn't exist is impossible.

For instance, prove without a doubt that Spider-Man doesn't exist.
Prove without a doubt that magical elves are not beaming projections of UFOs on to radars.
Prove without a doubt that UFOs are not projections of someone's thoughts manifesting into solid objects.

Now some things that do exist:
Prove without a doubt that these are not all hallucinations.
Prove without a doubt that these are not all psyops related.
Prove without a doubt that these are not all black projects.
Prove without a doubt that these are not all psychological in nature.

This is NOT argumentation that I use nor do I see much of this from the skeptical side. Why? Because its horrid logic and is rather pseudo scientific.

I have asked you over and over who is saying that the possibility of ET does not exist? What we have is no solid evidence that ET does exist. Do you understand the difference? It is a rather basic concept.

On the other hand what we do know is that many UFOs have been identified as hallucinations or misidentifications, black projects, natural phenomenon and on and on...

Radar cases CAN be a combination of any of the above.

Even though ALL of those things are known to exist, What I won't say as a rebuttal is "prove that all UFOs are NOT any of those things". Why? Because its horrible, horrible logic.


now i aint no mental health witch doctor or shrink
no you ain't. Now considering the terms you used to describe a respected field of study, "witch doctor or shrink", I would say you know pretty much nothing about any of it and that your view on a phenomenon that is based almost entirely on the perceptions of people, is rather meaningless.


edit on 25-9-2013 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2013 @ 12:10 AM
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anomalie

These are the same people who ignore the vast amount of data already out there credible reports (such as multiple witnesses, police, pilot, and military reports) and trace evidence all of which is worthless in their minds.

I think what's ignored is the number 0. With All of this vast amount of data, not one proof positive of ET. Each case individually returns a 0. Add them all together and you still get 0. You may have a ton of zeros, but they still add up to zero. Multiplying by 0 = 0. Now try dividing by zero...



They accuse believers making leaps of logic, unaware that theyre doing it themselves and will at times resort to thinly veiled insults.


Thinly veiled trolling insults? Like this?


Funny really..it wouldnt bother me so much but these people have the nerve to call themselves skeptics when what theyre really are pseudo skeptics, debunkers and at worse trolls.

I would say save your breath these people have already made their minds up.

Don't waste your breath on those trolling pseudo skeptics with their thinly veiled insults!



posted on Sep, 25 2013 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by Ectoplasm8
 



No, belief is thinking something is true based on your own personal evaluation. For example, what you consider "evidence".


And you continue to compare me with believers for whom the Alien visitation is a sound 'YES!'. What did I say in the previous posts? That my evaluation is not reaching the conclusion that there are alien visitors FOR SURE, my conclusion is - NOT EXCLUDABLE.

Do you even make the difference between taking possibilities and being certain about it based on poor evidence?? You know why you are so wrong? Because you refuse to accept more options than your belief system of 'I don't see it, therefore it's not there' - I asked you - have you had access to all classified information that exists and explains what it is to make a conclusion?

You haven't, then do not judge what something IS and what it is NOT. The position I take is - It could be Aliens or could be Not. Never did I state that the public evidence or even the secret data will disclose that for sure there are aliens. How would I know what they are without even knowing what is hidden???


Because no doubt, if this was happening for a fact, it would be worldwide. You're assuming all countries would keep it secret from other countries for their own personal reasons. The ones connected to the US, have to check with the US first. That's ridiculous. Convenient and ridiculous. So you just make up excuses for the reasons behind everything without any proof of it? Sounds like the same explanation method used for aliens visiting.


It IS worldwide for F's sake... I explained it - evidence? Look at the threads here that gather such cases in the UK, in Canada, in Belgium, In Japan in some other countries - and this is not to say that these are aliens for sure, as the evidence for that is not enough to say what they are - this is to say that PROOF OF the phenomena happening WORLDWIDE... Sheesh, you know very little about that don't you?


So you're working backwards... Prove they aren't here, before saying they aren't? I work the opposite. Prove they are here, in order to give it a possibility. Why? Because I understand that alien life visiting Earth would be an extraordinary event. Be it another world or dimension. Believers only trivialize this phenomena by so easily accepting "highly unusual cases" as possible alien life.


This is not my approach at all, 'prove it doesn't exist' - there is a lot of evidence that you clearly are not familiar with, to say something I say something is going on - be it beings, aliens, dimensional.

Also stop comparing me with a believer, just because you are Pseudoscientific - does not mean open-mindness = belief. Need I say that believers are certain of alien visitation, of Jesus, and I AM NOT.

However based on the many cases without knowing what is there and what is not, I cannot say anything with certainty as all that could be easily wrong - as well as true, some of it. Unlike pseudoscientific skepitcs that are certain in everything what is NOT without even having ALL the data.


Seriously?? You believe the story of the giant skeletons are genuine?? Please go on.... because you're doing a great job of shooting down your own credibility.


Oh please educate yourself on the topic before you make any bold statements. If you go to the internet and see all these images of giant skeletons - they are real! Not. Perhaps read about the case at the cave - this is not your average picture of skeletons on Google images, so what makes you think those were fake?


Plenty of people have been "brainwashed" into the idea of aliens visiting Earth. Just look at this thread. It seems to be a successful technique that's conveniently hidden in mystery. Tall tales and fantastical stories.

Let me ask you this. Would you give an equal possibility to aliens as NAZI technology? If you do, why?


Yes, I recently read that the Nazi may have found a way to use anti-gravity - how do you believe this, isn't it too extraordinary for you? I do not exclude it but I've heard of Werner von Braun and saying 'They helped us' to the Nazi technology and it was clear who he refers to 'They', as there is documentation of Hitler seeking and using even contactees and such for other worldly beings. And while I do not take these words as the Holy Words, I do not exclude anything unless it is proven without a doubt - wrong.

I do not exclude anything unlike you excluding that because it sounds 'too extraordinary to be real', I do not even exclude that all that could be coverup for Black Ops. But I've asked that many times - what would you possibly gain of saying that your secret machinery was aliens?? It would only make people put their nose into restricted areas even more. Also doing this for 60 years and on?

A real scientist is able to take opportunities and to possibilities when he doesn't have all the data. Denying something because it sounds too unbelievable, regardless of the fact that some data that is not proven as lies exists, is not scientific it is IGNORANCE

saying 'boohoo all that is nothing, I can't prove what is right and what is wrong from all the information', but it must be all wrong, therefore it is all wrong - so wrong approach to research...
edit on 25-9-2013 by ImpactoR because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2013 @ 04:22 AM
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A very intelligent man[tom]
who researched this topic
thinks ufos are real
some stupit fools on ats dont
nuff said really

also the debunkers are really tough now since tom left the building
edit on 25-9-2013 by skcussta because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2013 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by ZetaRediculian
 


Yeh 0 + 0 = 0 doesnt matter what operation you use it always gonna be zero...i get that.
I understand we dont have any proof of alien visitation or even if theyre responsible for UFO's but whats wrong with considering the alien hypothesis ?..kinda fits if you ask me..reports of strange objects making extraordinary maneuveres far more advanced than anything we currently have in the sky (if we rule out secret tech/black projects).
The point i was trying to make credible eye witness reports does matter even if it adds up to ZERO proof in the eyes of science its an important part of the UFO experience and should not be ignored like some debunkers seem to do.
So for the time being im quite happy hypothesising alien being one possibility and i dont see anything wrong with that.

Not that you care but ive never considered you 'one of those people' and yes the last few comments was naughty of me.



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 12:09 AM
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ImpactoR

And you continue to compare me with believers for whom the Alien visitation is a sound 'YES!'. What did I say in the previous posts? That my evaluation is not reaching the conclusion that there are alien visitors FOR SURE, my conclusion is - NOT EXCLUDABLE.

Do you even make the difference between taking possibilities and being certain about it based on poor evidence?? You know why you are so wrong? Because you refuse to accept more options than your belief system of 'I don't see it, therefore it's not there' - I asked you - have you had access to all classified information that exists and explains what it is to make a conclusion?


Of course not. No more than you have access to top secret information that may or may not be hidden. You seem to have convinced yourself, or more than likely others have convinced you, there COULD BE hidden documents regarding UFOs. What they are... if they are... Therefore, you leave the door open for that possibility of anything. The difference is, I don't assume there is anything of significance because like I said... we would know if alien beings, be it dimensional or another world, were visiting Earth. Period.

--------------------------


You haven't, then do not judge what something IS and what it is NOT. The position I take is - It could be Aliens or could be Not. Never did I state that the public evidence or even the secret data will disclose that for sure there are aliens. How would I know what they are without even knowing what is hidden???


Because first off, you are assuming there are documents explaining what it is. Can you not see the problem there? You seem to be basing a possibility(aliens, dimensional beings, or whatever), off an assumption(there are top secret government documents explaining it).

-----------------


It IS worldwide for F's sake... I explained it - evidence? Look at the threads here that gather such cases in the UK, in Canada, in Belgium, In Japan in some other countries - and this is not to say that these are aliens for sure, as the evidence for that is not enough to say what they are - this is to say that PROOF OF the phenomena happening WORLDWIDE... Sheesh, you know very little about that don't you?


You switch back and forth with your statements. You really don't know what, or who to believe I guess. It must be frustrating. I'll explain it one more time because you don't seem to be catching on. We have ZERO public physical evidence of anything. We have ZERO government physical evidence of anything, in any country, at any time, anywhere on Earth, ever. They are two separate issues. If you look at those two issues realistically, the public one is far more likely to procure physical evidence. You can excuse away the government with "secret documents" or "mass hysteria". You can not excuse away the public not coming forth with physical evidence.

Now, you have glommed on to the government issue with possible hidden UFO information. Based on things you've read or heard. That's what I'm addressing. You speak as if that's where the real evidence is... or should I say could be. If you believe that, you have to believe the governments of the world are doing exactly the same. Which is ridiculous.

--------------------------------


Oh please educate yourself on the topic before you make any bold statements. If you go to the internet and see all these images of giant skeletons - they are real! Not. Perhaps read about the case at the cave - this is not your average picture of skeletons on Google images, so what makes you think those were fake?


You're talking about the red-haired "giants", correct? So again, you have a story about these giants, and you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt just because of the story? Am I right assuming that? Is that part of the "real scientist" methodology?

-----------------------------


Yes, I recently read that the Nazi may have found a way to use anti-gravity - how do you believe this, isn't it too extraordinary for you? I do not exclude it but I've heard of Werner von Braun and saying 'They helped us' to the Nazi technology and it was clear who he refers to 'They', as there is documentation of Hitler seeking and using even contactees and such for other worldly beings. And while I do not take these words as the Holy Words, I do not exclude anything unless it is proven without a doubt - wrong.


You heard, you read, may have, and could-bes, etc... Nothing of actual substance though. Are these quotes traceable back to the actual source? Or do you just take the word of this guy said something to this guy? So, anti-gravity could have been around for 70 years, but, nothing in those 70 years has come about to prove any of that. But that doesn't mean it's not a real thing, right? Because of the stories told. I guess it's more secret government stuff? This time by the Germans for 70 years?

------------------------------


I do not exclude anything unlike you excluding that because it sounds 'too extraordinary to be real', I do not even exclude that all that could be coverup for Black Ops. But I've asked that many times - what would you possibly gain of saying that your secret machinery was aliens?? It would only make people put their nose into restricted areas even more. Also doing this for 60 years and on?

A real scientist is able to take opportunities and to possibilities when he doesn't have all the data. Denying something because it sounds too unbelievable, regardless of the fact that some data that is not proven as lies exists, is not scientific it is IGNORANCE

saying 'boohoo all that is nothing, I can't prove what is right and what is wrong from all the information', but it must be all wrong, therefore it is all wrong - so wrong approach to research...


I never said I exclude it because it sounds too extraordinary to be real. I exclude it because for the past 65+ years and thousands upon thousands of witnesses, there is not a single piece of physical evidence to back up any claim of having any connection to a being of any sort. I find that extremely strange and suspect taking in account the amount of witnesses and years it's been going on! That and the fact that many are a claimed physical events! I'd be glad to accept the possibility, with something concrete to back up the stories people tell. But, a story in itself, isn't evidence enough for me. No matter how many times it's told.

To me, ignorance is believing fantastical stories at face value. You seem very wishy-washy with the process you use. Your statements about the "giants" is also in line with this process. So I'm not surprised you keep that as a possibility also. Bigfoot, Loch Ness, ghosts are all possibilities as well I guess with this way of thinking.

I'm trying to have a discussion with someone that has no clue what to believe, or what not to believe. Hmph

---------------------------------



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 12:24 AM
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skcussta
A very intelligent man[tom]
who researched this topic
thinks ufos are real
some stupit fools on ats dont
nuff said really

also the debunkers are really tough now since tom left the building
edit on 25-9-2013 by skcussta because: (no reason given)


I've been waiting for an intelligent response to this question:



Strictly speaking about the material found as described by Jesse Marcel and Mac Brazel: Small i-beams and foil-like material, no more than 3 or 4 feet in length. Would you agree that the "spacecraft" would have had to have been at least partial constructed the same as RAWIN targets of the late 40's? Even the size of the debris found is consistent with the size of balloon cargo of the time.

To me, a spacecraft traveling our galaxy or universe that just so happens to come apart/crash in the same general area where balloon cargo regularly crash, in a time period that weather balloons are used, and is constructed exactly the same(small i-beams and foil material) as weather balloon cargo on Earth, would have to be an astronomical coincidence. You would think something completely un-relatable to anything we've ever seen would have been found. If parts of a 2013 F-22 Raptor or a B-2 bomber crashed on the ranch in 1947, there would be no doubt it was something highly advanced and never seen before.

People tend to focus just on the properties of the material. Can't be bent, burned etc. Strengthened balloon cargo type of material is a reasonable assumption for cargo that's traveling beyond the typical rawin target height and for extended periods of time. But, please respond to the construction of the spacecraft to weather balloon cargo in the 40's.

Thank you.


Or an answer to any similar question, but, it's yet to be addressed. I don't expect an answer either.



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 04:01 AM
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anomalie
reply to post by ZetaRediculian
 


Yeh 0 + 0 = 0 doesnt matter what operation you use it always gonna be zero...i get that.

Actually not. Dividing by zero is not zero. en.wikipedia.org...


I understand we dont have any proof of alien visitation or even if theyre responsible for UFO's but whats wrong with considering the alien hypothesis

Nothing at all. I like to speculate about the possibility from time to time.


kinda fits if you ask me..reports of strange objects making extraordinary maneuveres far more advanced than anything we currently have in the sky (if we rule out secret tech/black projects).
The point i was trying to make credible eye witness reports does matter even if it adds up to ZERO proof in the eyes of science its an important part of the UFO experience and should not be ignored like some debunkers seem to do.

I'm not sure who the debunkers are and don't really care. If their logic sucks it sucks. The one thing that comes to mind with this line of reasoning is that even with all the credible accounts and radar cases you can't get proof positive of ET. It sure seems you could because they are so ...alien like in the descriptions and lore or whoever is telling the story.

So if there are thousands of "eye witness" reports which can't nail down ET what's left? The "eye witness" of course. ..and then the tirade starts about how they can't ALL be hallucinations and people aren't retarded and on and on...

But that's all that's left until ET is captured, probed and brought to justice.



So for the time being im quite happy hypothesising alien being one possibility and i dont see anything wrong with that.
neither do I. It certainly is popular around here.



Not that you care but ive never considered you 'one of those people' and yes the last few comments was naughty of me.
I will take that as a compliment. thanks. actually I find it more interesting that you considered me at all. Good discussions are hard to come by and I've been a little on edge...should we hug or something?



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 04:38 AM
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reply to post by Ectoplasm8
 



we would know if alien beings, be it dimensional or another world, were visiting Earth. Period.
Mr plasm, I am not so sure about this. I am pretty certain I can come up with number of ways we wouldn't know. Other worlds, I think I follow you on that. Govt secrets Of visitation I don't find too credible. Dimensional aliens are much trickier though. Not that I give it too much thought, but what would prevent a dimensional alien from not being known?

Dimensional beings would be what exactly? Wouldn't they be lacking in physical form that we would understand? They could be here but we could just be confusing them with hallucinations since they would be indistinguishable.



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 04:51 AM
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Ectoplasm8

Of course not. No more than you have access to top secret information that may or may not be hidden. You seem to have convinced yourself, or more than likely others have convinced you, there COULD BE hidden documents regarding UFOs. What they are... if they are... Therefore, you leave the door open for that possibility of anything. The difference is, I don't assume there is anything of significance because like I said... we would know if alien beings, be it dimensional or another world, were visiting Earth. Period.


The public would know, really? How is that? I will repeat 'UFO related documents are classified even higher than the H bomb'. So how would you know if the gov didn't want you to know? Or maybe we would know because if ETs wanted us to see them, they would land on the White House and no one from the gov could stop them with their advanced technology?

That is true in general, but here comes the thing - if anything, it seems that the possible beings DO NOT want to be seen and prefer any encounters to happen casually so that they remain hardly believable. This is the only explanation why people would not see them in the middle of the day - if they wanted to show themselves to us and the gov stopped them, that wouldn't happen as they can do whatever they want as being more advanced.

This only shows there could be some kind of agreement or treaty as some of the documents about such things talk - or they simply do not want to show themselves. Have you ever heard of the Grenada Tray, the treaty with Eisenhower? All this cannot be verified but cannot be excluded.



Because first off, you are assuming there are documents explaining what it is. Can you not see the problem there? You seem to be basing a possibility(aliens, dimensional beings, or whatever), off an assumption(there are top secret government documents explaining it).


Assuming? Why don't you ask some of the guys into the field to tell you how many more things are secret if you think this is pure belief?? That is - that there are indeed things kept secret.

Also why did the countries keep secret even those UFO files that reveal nothing of significance? Why is there classification if it is one big nothing? I watched recently the work of researchers who revealed LIES, as if they don't know about the topic and yet they classify it?? Seems you have missed to watch that.



We have ZERO government physical evidence of anything, in any country, at any time, anywhere on Earth, ever. They are two separate issues. If you look at those two issues realistically, the public one is far more likely to procure physical evidence. ... That's what I'm addressing. You speak as if that's where the real evidence is... or should I say could be. If you believe that, you have to believe the governments of the world are doing exactly the same. Which is ridiculous.


And did I say that this limited information proves for sure that there are alien (or any) visitors? No, I said that it is enough when you don't know what there is to NOT close the door for possibilities. This is not scientific!



You're talking about the red-haired "giants", correct? So again, you have a story about these giants, and you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt just because of the story? Am I right assuming that? Is that part of the "real scientist" methodology?


Just a story? Arrows have been found, bones have been found, why don't you ask the museum when they had them. Again, like UFOs anything that is not in the Encyclopedia gets hidden or destroyed, thus those pieces are nowhere to be found. But from the people who ran the museum back in the 1900-30s you would know. 'Just a story?'... Need I list other things from 'just a story/myth' seem to existed.

The Greek city of Troy was a myth too you know. You should not be so shallow when talking about what is a myth and what not.


You heard, you read, may have, and could-bes, etc... Nothing of actual substance though. Are these quotes traceable back to the actual source? Or do you just take the word of this guy said something to this guy? So, anti-gravity could have been around for 70 years, but, nothing in those 70 years has come about to prove any of that. But that doesn't mean it's not a real thing, right? Because of the stories told. I guess it's more secret government stuff? This time by the Germans for 70 years?


Do you know the meaning of SECRET? You see, you go by the logic 'I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist' Such findings could date back to Tesla or some other scientist, why would YOU know about this technology if it is strictly used for secret military projects? Here is an example: Some experiments may be done at Los Alamos, on humans, against all human rights and such, you don't know about them. Therefore they do not exist? To you they may not exist, but in general they might.

Area 51 also didn't exist in the eyes of such like you but in the end, it existed for itself.

------------------------------


I exclude it because for the past 65+ years and thousands upon thousands of witnesses, there is not a single piece of physical evidence to back up any claim of having any connection to a being of any sort. I find that extremely strange and suspect taking in account the amount of witnesses and years it's been going on! That and the fact that many are a claimed physical events! I'd be glad to accept the possibility, with something concrete to back up the stories people tell. But, a story in itself, isn't evidence enough for me. No matter how many times it's told.


There lies the problem, your unawareness and without having access to all that is classified, you cannot know what exists and what is fabricated. That's why you should not exclude something, without having all the data of what is there and what is not. You clearly do it from the point of a skeptic but Im neither a believer, nor a skeptic, glad to not be the second, as I showed what is wrong with 'I didn't see the evidence so it doesn't exist'.


Bigfoot, Loch Ness, ghosts are all possibilities as well I guess with this way of thinking.

I'm trying to have a discussion with someone that has no clue what to believe, or what not to believe. Hmph


I do not believe anything, I question everything, but I do not exclude things that there is enough accounts to suggest. For the 'flying spaghetti monster, Loh Nes and ghosts maye be a few tens of cases 100-200-500 vs thousands. Don't even compare me those, the difference and the CLUES are much much more.

Also not knowing what is true is right - it means that if it turns out all to be a lie - yes I do not exclude that either, I will have been in the position to never claimed anything as certain. Though if something turns out true.. you know where you are. Welcome to objectivity



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 12:47 PM
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Some problems exist in the UFO/ET Hypothesis arena that we have to look at clearly.

* Think of what it would take for a non-terrestrial to come here, in person. Add to that the allegation that they're doing it "secretly". Add to that that they are just doing things on the sidelines, just out of reach, just out of perception, amounting to some highly strange situations that are just below the level of 'evidence'.

* Think of number of known UFO/ET/Paranormal hoaxes out there. If nothing else it tells us "we want to believe". This wish to believe in the magical, the unexplained is very captivating. But we must fight against the urge to ascribe extremely low probability explanations to these highly strange events. The 'aliens did it' is not able to be easily excluded, but it certainly should not be the 'goto' explanation.

* Look at the way we explore alien worlds. We do not use stealth. In fact we leave fields of trash and spare parts around. This is one reason that those who were UFO fans are now skeptical. The aliens visit us but NEVER, EVER leave anything behind. Remember Locard's Principle. There should be trace evidence. Is it possible that they are visiting us but using virtual methods? Yes, but it's one of those low probability explanations. If it's a virtual visit, we will never have proof, so it might as well be 'fiction'. I don't think anyone things aliens are just extremely tidy and OCD, taking all trace with them. Some might argue we have trace, implants and so forth, but it's of the type that's sketchy.

* Note also that in this 'field' people are likely to 'cling' to stories. We hear 'Oh the RAAF sent out people and dug up the site many times to try and sift through all the dirt and get every single bit of crashed material'. It make us raise an eyebrow. Gee, if they're doing that it must be "Something Special". But if you think about it you realize that it's just a story. You can't let yourself cling to snippets or factoids like this. You can't call this evidence. We must be very careful and very selective of what we label as evidence due, in part, to all the hoaxing.

* In the Roswell case, just because there are lots of 'layers', lots of 'disinformation', lots of stories, lots of seemingly suspicious actions on the part of the military, in the end it doesn't add up to anything. It's exciting, it's just out of our grasp, some of the aspects even give us 'chills', like the I-beams and symbols. But we can't 'fall for' these stories and immediately jump to an ET explanation.

The bottom line is that if 'they were here' we would know about it. There would be a lot of trace, a lot of clear signs, colonies on the Moon, colonies on Mars, orbiting space stations even. We would have actual verifiable video of actual beings landing, taking hostages, doing things. But we have nothing at all like this. Close, but no cigar.

Finally, bear in mind that space, cold, near vacuum, vast distances, economics, sparsity, longevity and time sync (among others) make a "planetary Galaxy" almost a perfect quarantine. Yes there are likely to be sentient beings out there, but they're not coming here.

What could conquer this quarantine? It would take a Kardashev Type II civilization at least and we see absolutely no evidence of this in our Galaxy in our time synch. Knowing this we must look elsewhere for the explanation to these compelling and highly strange events, while keeping an open mind, of course.
edit on 26-9-2013 by Maverick7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 06:37 PM
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ZetaRediculian
reply to post by Ectoplasm8
 



we would know if alien beings, be it dimensional or another world, were visiting Earth. Period.
Mr plasm, I am not so sure about this. I am pretty certain I can come up with number of ways we wouldn't know. Other worlds, I think I follow you on that. Govt secrets Of visitation I don't find too credible. Dimensional aliens are much trickier though. Not that I give it too much thought, but what would prevent a dimensional alien from not being known?

Dimensional beings would be what exactly? Wouldn't they be lacking in physical form that we would understand? They could be here but we could just be confusing them with hallucinations since they would be indistinguishable.


You start with the popularity of this phenomena in 1947 with Kenneth Arnold seeing several "craft". A few weeks later you have the Roswell crash of a supposed UFO with alien bodies. From the very beginning, both UFOs and aliens are claimed to be physical entities. Carry that through many more years of sightings, crashes, physical encounters, abductions and other stories and the believers claim themselves, this is physical.

"Dimensional" beings is only catering to his indecisive opinions of what's going on, to make my point. It's clearly believed to be a physical event by most.



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by ImpactoR
 


You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. I'm not going to repeat the same thing 3 more times. And continue to hijack this thread at the same time.

Your world is filled with may-bes, could-bes, possiblies, conjecture, confusion, and on and on. There's no point trying any longer to try and hold a coherent conversation with you. I should have left when you brought up "giants". I'm confident in my stance at this point. You aren't, but, you seem to be either purporsely or unknowingly trying to drag me into this cloud of confusion you live in. This confusion of trying to understand what I am saying, fits perfectly into your own confusion of what you are saying or believe.



posted on Sep, 27 2013 @ 06:53 AM
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reply to post by Ectoplasm8
 


Yes, I've gone through the mind warp with this one. See "logical trickery". What I find is its the absence of information or the all cap 'SECRET' that sends people into the abyss of illusury possibility. This is what sets apart the good poker players from the bad. It's the guess what's behind the curtain game. The magic trick. Psych 101. It's the word "possibility" that is really misunderstood around here. Mathematically, something is possible or it's not. On or off. Is it possible that Spider-Man is real and we don't see him because he's too fast? It's silly, right? But it's the same argument.



posted on Sep, 27 2013 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by Ectoplasm8
 


The problem, mister, is that you are certain in things you do not understand. It is better to be confused and in a world of maybe-s and could be-s, than 'I don't know, so it doesn't exist'. Again - welcome to Objectivity 101 where it is normal to accept neither but open the door for it because there is enough data that gives a reason to think so, something you believers and especially you skeptics will never understand. But to you the data is not even enough to consider it a possibility, so we both agree the data is not enough to consider Alien Visitation a fact, but you don't even consider that possible.

I told you the fallacy of your logic:

Before A51 got acknowledged what were you saying to the people you bashed? There is no such place, no such evidence.

If you didn't like the story of the giants and this is a case no one denies as almost certainly done (other than PSeudosscientists like you), then how about Troy and 'it was a myth'.

There is a lot of cases throughout history, do you really think all was just a myth and stories and fairy tales? Yes a lot of them were, but just like Troy and the Lovelock caves discovery, what else do you need to understand that denying something and not thinking it is possible is WRONG, plain wrong.

There is no clear explanation of the development of human MIND, yes the mind, not the physiology. It's clear that humans have originated from animals and apes as being the closest species, but the MIND.

Why didn't I see some monkey building an alphabet or creating a new theory in philosophy or even saying to itself 'We should not walk naked anymore let's put on some things to cover our body parts' like at least the Neanderthals did??

Oh you are from the ones that have explanation for EVERYHTING but based on knowledge of NOTHING.

I do not live in fantasy because I have put lots of things under critical thinking and critical does not mean to deny all just because I never experienced it or seen it. I still deny a lot of things and I am still DOUBTFUL to alien visitation but I do not exclude it.

The fact that you cannot even accept possibilities based on information that allows such things to be considered possible, speaks bad for yourself, perhaps one day you will understand the foolishness you decided to step into.



posted on Sep, 27 2013 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by ZetaRediculian
 



It's the word "possibility" that is really misunderstood around here. Mathematically, something is possible or it's not. On or off. Is it possible that Spider-Man is real and we don't see him because he's too fast? It's silly, right? But it's the same argument.


Troy didn't exist, it was just a myth, evidence of it was even less than that of today's UFOs before Schliemann discovered it.

Area 51, a secret base was also just bogus story, Dulce that despite not being an 'alien-human' base of 7 levels, according to the author G. Valdez that base exists (who even came here and explained why he has no gain of the book to make that up - oh a book? Then consider it fake), even if only as a military base.

I could give other examples of how 'it had no evidence, so it didn't exist' Ok how many things like this one need to be revealed to make you people understand that there may always be a pleasant surprise behind it.

Conspiracies are a mixture of lies and facts, you never know what is true. Then how the hell do some of you like to deny all?? Because there is no evidence FOR YOU? Yes I can understand if you don't know it exists, why should you believe it but when there are people who suggest and claim it exists, why at least not take it with a grain of salt and DENY ALL?

I've seen such stupid remarks of type 'Oh this guy is writing a book, therefore he is making up the things he writes about, they are all fake' - for example in recent interviews, Ask Me Anything threads and such...

So if someone writes a book, he is bogus automatically? Amazing logic, when such logic exists, why should I call such people anything more than SCOFFERS and pseudo-scientists?

Always take chances when there is data that suggests so, and no one asks you to believe it, just consider something from it...
edit on 27-9-2013 by ImpactoR because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2013 @ 02:46 PM
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ImpactoR
reply to post by ZetaRediculian
 


Troy didn't exist, it was just a myth, evidence of it was even less than that of today's UFOs before Schliemann discovered it.

That's really cool but not the norm. And when they found it, it was just like any other city but without the minitaurs.
Ancient cities are known to exist. Aliens are not known to exist.

There would be a probability associated with Troy existing or not based on the evidence and other known Ancient cities.

The confusion with Troy was that it was the main city in the Oddesy which was a fictional work. Spiderman lives in NYC. Superman lives in Metropolis. Atlantis?

That it's possible for something to exist that is not known to exist is virtually meaningless. Is it possible aliens exist and have come here to find me to drink some beers? Yep.

There is no value to put on an unknown like aliens. for instance, what are the odds for any given encounter being due to aliens? All you have to do is take your knowns and compare them to your unknowns. So what do we know about?

It doesn't matter if someone describes aliens break dancing and doing back flips. "Seeming" like something could be true, doesn't make it a point of data.

There is nothing pseudo about it. You are just overvaluing the word "possibility".



posted on Sep, 27 2013 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by ZetaRediculian
 

reply to post by Ectoplasm8
 




So does Atlantis have to exist? After all, 'ancient cities are known to exist'. Should one take such a possibility? The evidence of it is less than the evidence of non-human technology or UFOs, whereas the latter is lacking, the first one is nearly non-existent.

In order to claim possibility of 'beings or advanced civilization or time travelers or dimensional beings or demons or call them whatever the hell you want', there is cases that defy technology of human achievements, that are claimed even by experts to not be anything known, some military who would have an idea how more advanced the Industrial Complex is also doubt of some of the cases man-made nature.

I do not understand contactees, I do not consider them reliable. Though as long as they do not go into occulting and things that just like dreaming could be nothing more than imagination (though define imagination in dreams, I have many cases of dreaming random places, meeting people I never know at the time of the dream and talking or doing things that later make me remember them, this happened rare but I can account more than thirty times for the last several years).

Ok forget aliens, do you think projects on the human mind, manipulation, mind control and even dreams experiments such as those at Montauk never happened? Or they also are 'not enough evidence, thus no possibility'.

Now if you happen to believe in such mind experiments and things that 'open' the mind abilities like telepathy and contactees (I do not believe any of those!), then how do you know there isn't anything in these experiments. And contactees to be real, after all how many people claim to be contactees, only specific people.

Now combine contactees and alien encounters and all the cases you've got and unexplained things in the human history and evolution plus at least some myths who turned out true

The combination of all that makes a fair possibility, and no one is to compare that with Loh Nes, ghosts, spaghetti monster, pink ponies (oh they do exist).

Why didn't I see whistleblower say:

Yes, the whole alien propaganda was started X years ago, the idea was to cover up our projects blah blah blah

why didn't I see any leaked documents of the truth? Ok bash alien documents and call them fake, most of them are, anyway,,, now where is the real evidence. Oh that's right it is as much PUBLIC as the one about UFOS
edit on 27-9-2013 by ImpactoR because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 27 2013 @ 04:56 PM
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ImpactoR
reply to post by ZetaRediculian
 

reply to post by Ectoplasm8
 


So does Atlantis have to exist? After all, 'ancient cities are known to exist'.

Oy vey.


Should one take such a possibility? The evidence of it is less than the evidence of non-human technology or UFOs, whereas the latter is lacking, the first one is nearly non-existent.
yes, both add up to zero.


In order to claim possibility of 'beings or advanced civilization or time travelers or dimensional beings or demons or call them whatever the hell you want',

Yes...in order to claim a possibility...you have to?


there is cases that defy technology of human achievements, that are claimed even by experts to not be anything known, some military who would have an idea how more advanced the Industrial Complex is also doubt of some of the cases man-made nature.
there are cases..yes...I have heard of these on the interwebs. I haven't seen a really good verifiable one though. What experts?
Yes...in order to claim a possibility...you have to? find an expert.....?



I do not understand contactees, I do not consider them reliable. Though as long as they do not go into occulting and things that just like dreaming could be nothing more than imagination (though define imagination in dreams, I have many cases of dreaming random places, meeting people I never know at the time of the dream and talking or doing things that later make me remember them, this happened rare but I can account more than thirty times for the last several years).

Contactees, occulting and dreams....I like it.


Ok forget aliens,

Done.


do you think projects on the human mind, manipulation, mind control and even dreams experiments such as those at Montauk never happened? Or they also are 'not enough evidence, thus no possibility'.

My assumption is that there is enough evidence that such experiments went on but I don't know enough about it to comment.


Now if you happen to believe in such mind experiments and things that 'open' the mind abilities like telepathy and contactees (I do not believe any of those!), then how do you know there isn't anything in these experiments. And contactees to be real, after all how many people claim to be contactees, only specific people.

An "experiment" is a way to find out something. Perhaps these experiments were to find out about delusions and hallucinations.



Now combine contactees and alien encounters and all the cases you've got and unexplained things in the human history and evolution plus at least some myths who turned out true

Combining......please wait....done!


The combination of all that makes a fair possibility, and no one is to compare that with Loh Nes, ghosts, spaghetti monster, pink ponies (oh they do exist).
wait a second...I already combined them in the first part. Ghosts are unexplained as is the loch ness monster And the Flying Spaghetti Monster does exist.

OK...next topic.


Why didn't I see whistleblower say:

Yes, the whole alien propaganda was started X years ago, the idea was to cover up our projects blah blah blah

I don't know. Go ask him. He has taken the time to answer just about all questions.


why didn't I see any leaked documents of the truth? Ok bash alien documents and call them fake, most of them are, anyway,,,
What you are saying is...?


now where is the real evidence. Oh that's right it is as much PUBLIC as the one about UFOS

Correct. His job was to lie about things and even though everything he says totally and unequivocally supports all my notions I pull out of my butt about how people come to believe in such things, I take it with a grain of salt because that is what you do.




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