To the Atheist: A reason Christians get heated when defending their belief.

reply to post by truejew


Priest has quoted more than enough Scripture for you to understand we aren't trying to pull a trick on you man....Read the sections of Scripture that he references....He has made a very valid case using Scripture, something I have yet to see you do.

And, I find it very odd that a believer in Christ won't quickly admit to being a sinner?

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by truejew

 

Water baptism is work, and is not a requisite for salvation. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is required for eternal life, and that is accomplished by God, not you or any other man. At the point of salvation, one is baptized in the Holy Spirit and reciece the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I never said it involved work.

Water baptism is no more a work than repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit. It is God alone who remits sin by His grace through our faith in being water baptized. When asked, "what shall we do?", Peter said, "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...".(Acts2:38) Peter did not say, "repent" and "if you want to get baptized also that would be nice". Plus Jesus said that we must be born again of the water and the Spirit to enter Heaven (John 3:3-5) and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). Peter said, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..." (1 Peter 3:21).

BELIEVERpriest

The thief on the cross next to Jesus never had the opportunity to be baptized by water, and He was save by simply believing in Jesus.

The thief on the cross did not die under the New Covenant. He died under the law and before baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

BELIEVERpriest

The question is: After the moment of salvation, does one still commit sin from time to time?

We who are in Jesus Christ are new creatures. We are not bound by sin. While sin is still a part of your nature, it is no longer a part of ours. We may still make a mistake once in awhile, but it is a mistake and not due to a sin nature or out of premeditation.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


I'm happy you feel free and the power to share your beliefs. We all need to do the same. Not all will agree but when a christian post from the heart with no hatred or antagonism a seed is planted...though we cannot control the soil in which it is planted.

I am a Christian, I have no doubts in my belief, but I know others may see things differently. We all have the terms of our lives to connect with the truth and beauty of God and faith. If I were judged years ago people would have condemned a saved man. So plant the seed and hope for fruit without judgement...

reply to post by truejew

Water baptism is no more a work than repentance and receiving the Holy Spirit. It is God alone who remits sin by His grace through our faith in being water baptized. When asked, "what shall we do?", Peter said, "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...".(Acts2:38) Peter did not say, "repent" and "if you want to get baptized also that would be nice". Plus Jesus said that we must be born again of the water and the Spirit to enter Heaven (John 3:3-5) and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). Peter said, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..." (1 Peter 3:21).

Okay, I want to start off by saying that if you believe water baptism is required for salvation then you are calling Jesus himself a liar.

John 6
Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Here is why you are confused friend Jesus is the Baptist in today's time.

Mark 1
John was clothed with camel’s hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. 7 And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8 I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 11
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”


In acts 1 Jesus himself confirms he baptizes not with water but the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1
Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for [e]what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”


Now lets look at the beginning of 1 Peter 3:21(one of the verses you quoted)

"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"

Water baptism is symbolic and not required for salvation. The baptism that now saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and is bestowed by Jesus.

You are misinterpreting the subject of John 3:3-5. The subject is being born again, not baptism. Birth of water is our first birth our physical birth, and when we are born again we are born of the Spirit.

The thief on the cross did not die under the New Covenant. He died under the law and before baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

The law cannot save.

Hebrews 10
10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

We who are in Jesus Christ are new creatures. We are not bound by sin. While sin is still a part of your nature, it is no longer a part of ours. We may still make a mistake once in awhile, but it is a mistake and not due to a sin nature or out of premeditation.

1 John 1
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

You are deceiving yourself friend. I hope this opened your eyes.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


I think that I have made it very clear that Jesus is the Christ and His crucifixion fulfilled the 70 weeks as prophesied. There will be no other Christ coming in a future 70th week. I think I have also made it clear that Peter told us what we shall do to be added to the Church in Acts 2:38.

Now about 1 John 1... I did not say that we have not sinned, but that we are no longer bound by sin.

Romans 6:18 KJV
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

truejew
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

I think that I have made it very clear that Jesus is the Christ and His crucifixion fulfilled the 70 weeks as prophesied. There will be no other Christ coming in a future 70th week. I think I have also made it clear that Peter told us what we shall do to be added to the Church in Acts 2:38.

Now about 1 John 1... I did not say that we have not sinned, but that we are no longer bound by sin.

Romans 6:18 KJV
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You definitely haven't made it clear sir. You have just said your opinion multiple times with no cross reference verses. I think priest made it pretty clear that the you are misinterpreting Daniel 9, so I am not going to get back into that argument. If you choose to turn a blind eye to reason there is nothing I can do or say to change your mind.

ZeroReady
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Bombarding atheists with logic games and facts? Logic and facts? And your only source for this is a Bronze Age document written with Bronze Age ethics and "facts".

So the secret feeling that Christians get which atheists somehow are missing out on is a feeling of forgiveness from a vengeful, vindictive, racist, homophobic sky-god, for a set of subjective "sins", which may not even be sins to some people? And you don't want to share it because you're afraid of being ridiculed? I can see why you would want to leave that part out.

Have I got that right?

I can't blame you for feeling ridiculed over believing something like that, as someone who subscribes to "logic and facts" myself, even though I'm a hedonistic atheist. You should be ridiculed.

Haha I was gonna reply but then I read this. Couldn't have said it better myself.

reply to post by truejew


We are not bound by the slave market of sin any more, but until the day of death or ressurection (whichever comes first), we still struggle with the sin nature. Jesus never made mistakes, because mistakes are poor choices that result from sin. We are often tempted, but it is when we choose the option offered by temptation that we sin. Therefore, if you make even the slightest mistake, it is a result of an active sin nature. Like i said we are free from sin in that we can now choose not to sin by entering into fellowship with God via confession of sin to the Father (1 John 1:9), so sin is always our choice.

Daniel 9 declares that 70 weeks (490 years) are decreed for the sealing of prophecy and the removal of sin (primarily that of Israel). As believers, we still make mistakes (big and small), therefore we still struggle with the sin nature. Therefore, you can not say that Jesus has fulfilled the 70th week, as Israel still rejects their Messiah and believers still sin.

As I said, the question does directly hinge on Daniel 9.

reply to post by truejew


Your use of 1Peter 3:21 is out grossely out of context. Young's literal translation gives us the best translation in this particular case.

Young's Literal Translation (1 Pet 3:20+)

"20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah —an ark being preparing — in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; 21 also to which an antitype doth now save us — baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone on to heaven — messengers, and authorities, and powers, having been subjected to him."

In this case, Christ is an antitype of the Ark. Noah and co, were saved from the flood in the ark, and in the ark, the waters delivered them (not by washing away sin, but by deliverance). This is what Peter meant.

Baptism literally means submergence, but it is not always used in the literal sense. To be baptized in Christ's death+ressurection is to be identified with His death+ressurection. To be baptized in the Holy Spirit is to be identified with the Holy Spirit.

Even when baptism is used in its literal sense, water can not literally wash away sin. Only Christ can. Instead, water baptism symbolically identifies you with cleanliness. Its a WORK of faith, but not part of saving grace.

Baptism is all about identification.

John 3:3-7, “Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'"

That which is born of flesh is flesh and of spirit is spirit. Jesus was responding to Nicodemus. Flesh is born of water. Spirit is born of faith. Baptism by water can not save you, only baptism in the Holy Spirit (which happens at the moment of faith in Christ) can save you.

ServantOfTheLamb


First off I would like to apologize. I shouldn't have said you have to accept the holy spirit, but rather that when you first believe the Gospel it is sealed within you. This is the feeling I refer too. The Holy Spirit isn't a requirement, but a gift(reference Ephesians 1:13-14). I apologize again for the misunderstanding.

Second I would say it is irrelevant. Jesus told him he would be going to paradise with him. If Jesus lied there none of us are going to heaven based on the doctrine. The thief would have had no reason to be endowed with the Holy Spirit he was at the end of his path, so no he probably never received it on earth.

edit on 14-9-2013 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-9-2013 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)

The thief on the cross died before the Spirit was poured out to believers on the earth at Pentecost

My actual issue is that Christianity is a belief based on faith, not feelings.
The devil can copy any good feelings, and Christians can go through times of feeling bad

Any way God bless

ServantOfTheLamb

truejew
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

I think that I have made it very clear that Jesus is the Christ and His crucifixion fulfilled the 70 weeks as prophesied. There will be no other Christ coming in a future 70th week. I think I have also made it clear that Peter told us what we shall do to be added to the Church in Acts 2:38.

Now about 1 John 1... I did not say that we have not sinned, but that we are no longer bound by sin.

Romans 6:18 KJV
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You definitely haven't made it clear sir. You have just said your opinion multiple times with no cross reference verses. I think priest made it pretty clear that the you are misinterpreting Daniel 9, so I am not going to get back into that argument. If you choose to turn a blind eye to reason there is nothing I can do or say to change your mind.

edit on 17-9-2013 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)

Why do I need "cross reference verses" to teach what Daniel 9 says.

Try reading Daniel 9 in the Septuagint, it is very clear there.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by truejew

 

Daniel 9 declares that 70 weeks (490 years) are decreed for the sealing of prophecy and the removal of sin (primarily that of Israel). As believers, we still make mistakes (big and small), therefore we still struggle with the sin nature. Therefore, you can not say that Jesus has fulfilled the 70th week, as Israel still rejects their Messiah and believers still sin.

As I said, the question does directly hinge on Daniel 9.

If Jesus failed and did not bring salvation to Israel (the Church), what other Christ should we be looking for?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


My response to "what shall we do?" remains the same as Peter's response.

Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Isn't the reason that Christians get so heated up is the very same reason that sports fans get heated up over rooting for their favorite team. Isn't both just a game.....

Besides, if anyone ever recognized the issues of religion's most distant roots, they would find a Gihon Spring under the Temple of Solomon and that Spring's water was special and used for water purification. That Spring was the reason for Jerusalem and the Temple itself. That Spring and the Jordan's water have much in common, and only few people know that essential element for religion.

So, if there were really any persons of religion out there, they would know why that Spring was special and why it was named for one of the Rivers in the Garden of Eden. And why John chose the Jordan River, too

Unfortunately, just like sports is a distraction from reality that many become heated over, so is the truncated religion of the Bible narratives that omit the beginnings of religions and the roots of Abraham and earlier to Enoch, et al.

It appears all the heat is simply because you, the Christian, are so frustrated that you don't know the deeper realities of religion, that you break down into the same heated name calling as fans name calling over a game of nothing. imho

reply to post by truejew


Cross referencing verses clarifies the meaning of a single verse that can often be taken out of context.

Israel is not the Church, and the Church is not Israel. They are two separate dispensation (kairos). This is one of the sources of your confusion.

You are very articulate in reguards to your opinion, but beyond a few misinterpreted verses, you have no real foundation for your doctrine. And it is your doctrine, not God's.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by truejew

 

Cross referencing verses clarifies the meaning of a single verse that can often be taken out of context.

Israel is not the Church, and the Church is not Israel. They are two separate dispensation (kairos). This is one of the sources of your confusion.

You are very articulate in reguards to your opinion, but beyond a few misinterpreted verses, you have no real foundation for your doctrine. And it is your doctrine, not God's.

The Church is God's only chosen people. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. The law does not save.

reply to post by truejew


God made an unconditional promise to Abraham reguarding his descendants. The law was given to Israel to make them realize that they needed the Messiah, so I never said anyone was saved by keeping the Law. Before the frist advent, salvation was based on the expectation of Christ. After the cross salvation is based on the fulfilled work of Christ. Both perspectives are one and the same...faith in the Messiah.

So based on the unconditional covenant, the Church is not Israel. Gentile Christians are not Jews.

The notion that the Church somehow replaced Israel is an anti-semitic doctrine. God created the Church to buy time for Israel's repentance.

So, I dont know your racial background, TrueJew, but if you are not a semite descended from Jacob, then you are definately not a true jew.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by truejew

 

God made an unconditional promise to Abraham reguarding his descendants.

The Church is the descendants of Abraham.


Galatians 3:29 KJV
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Again, salvation is through Jesus Christ alone.

What matters is grace, not race.

reply to post by truejew


The 144,000 in Rev are 12,000 racial Hebrews from each of the 12 bloodlines descending from Jacob. We know this because they are identified with the original tribe names. Yes, they are all believers in Christ, but they are all genetically the seed of Abraham.

Not all members of the Church are genetic Hebrews. Spiritually yes, but not genetically.

The Church will never replace Israel in God's unconditional covenant with Abraham.

BELIEVERpriest
reply to post by truejew

 

The 144,000 in Rev are 12,000 racial Hebrews from each of the 12 bloodlines descending from Jacob. We know this because they are identified with the original tribe names. Yes, they are all believers in Christ, but they are all genetically the seed of Abraham.

Not all members of the Church are genetic Hebrews. Spiritually yes, but not genetically.

The Church will never replace Israel in God's unconditional covenant with Abraham.

The 144,000 are saved through Jesus Christ. They are part of the Church. They are not saved by their race or by the law. You need to repent of your racism, antichrist doctrine, and false prophecy.