Children Seized in Shocking Raid (Germany)

Maybe the parents were neglectful and were denying them an education. It does happen.

reply to post by darkbake


That's what happens when you expect the government to do good for you and proceed to obligate it to do good FOR you.

You simultaneously demand that it decide for you what is best and what you can not do for yourself no matter how much good you see in it.

But hey, they have free health care and a good quality of life.......must be worth it.

sugar daddy government knows best..

reply to post by darkbake


Oh boy that's bad news. I feel for the pain the family must be experiencing. What has the world come to? Where will it lead humanity when things like this are becoming common place to the point this generation in a few years will think that it has always been this way? Those poor children and the parents must be suffering so badly right now, sending my love and prayers their way.

reply to post by darkbake

First off, mandatory schooling in Germany is definitely not used for nationalistic indoctrination.
Teaching about the dangers of nationalism is very much emphasized in German education.

The laws purpose is to protect the right of under-aged children to be up to par with the level of knowledge of their contemporaries, until they are old enough to make their own decision.

I'm usually opposed to almost all invasive actions of the State into our private life, but in this case the State fulfils its obligation to protect individuals from harm (harm in form of educational disadvantage and subsequently very likely dependency).


I also want to say:
U.S. Americans pointing fingers at Germany regarding freedom, especially nowadays, is pretty rich to say the least.

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by darkbake

 

First off, mandatory schooling in Germany is definitely not used for nationalistic indoctrination.
Teaching about the dangers of nationalism is very much emphasized in German education.

Well that closes that issue, are you from Germany? Is that really part of the education?

Over in the U.S. we don't receive that, because we haven't experienced something like Hitler or Stalin first-hand. So although we do want to keep separation between church and state,

There doesn't seem to be much discussion on how to do that safely. There is a lot of over-reaction here regarding that issue to where Atheists are not respectful of Religions, and visa versa.

I think it is kind of a grey area.

reply to post by darkbake

Originally posted by darkbake
Well that closes that issue, are you from Germany? Is that really part of the education?

Yes I am, and yes it is. Maybe sometimes even a little more than actually needed IMO.

Originally posted by darkbake
There doesn't seem to be much discussion on how to do that [separation of church and state] safely. There is a lot of over-reaction here regarding that issue to where Atheists are not respectful of Religions, and visa versa.

Works pretty good here from my POV.
Just keep religions out of politics and vice versa.
The majority of people who voted for Angela Merkels Christian democratic union last time were actually not even Christians... its just not that much of a socio-politically issue.

reply to post by ColCurious


That sounds like a better situation than in the U.S., whenever we are close to solving something like gender equality or racism, and people forget all about it, someone on the left brings it up again, over stuff that is questionably racist / sexist, and people react by getting more racist and sexist.

I remember I used to not even consider race to be an issue at all, but it's actually gone backwards for me, and now I feel like there is pressure to always be aware of what race people are, whether for being mandatorally racist or extra-careful, depending on your region.

In Idaho, there is lot of pressure to be racist, and Hispanics even live in their own sections of town, I am pretty sure I would experience social consequences if I hung out with them - meanwhile the liberals are focused on micro-racism in their cities and completely oblivious to macro racism in the red states.

reply to post by ColCurious


I hear what your saying but I would strongly disagree....I am sorry but a schooled education with standard curriculum does not meet the needs of many people....and many...heck a great many of our best thinkers and scientist came out of varied backgrounds and many times did not include a state run education...when I am told a round the world trip is not good and I will be fined if I remove my child from school to do so ....IS NOT CORRECT.

The government has no right other than am abusing my child to remove my children from me....telling me the kind of education I need for my child is not of their concern.....Were these children being abused...IMO from what I can see...NO they were not.

no child left behind.....please tell me how many kids come out of government education and still cannot read....do maths...and can barely understand the complexities of basic living.

I am sorry...but state run schools are great in most cases....FOR A GENERAL education....but sorry It is still faulty in many ways and fails a great many free thinking children and stifles them into rote thinking.

Anyone who thinks their government is out there to help...is wrong....they are only out there to control...to control the masses and to make us think in a narrow minded fashion to create yet another worker breed of slave.....Schools are becoming more and more like vetting stations for worker ants.....The latest thing about is targets....who in their right mind sets targets for what my child can achieve....the education system here in England is horrible.....it is only capable of producing dumb worker ants...and if this is what you hope for your children...then stick them into state run schools....if you want a free thinker...find alternatives...as the state run school will brainwash your children...do people not ask why wealthy people send their kids to private school.

BECAUSE THEY KNOW STATE RUN SCHOOLS ARE MIND ALTERING CESSPITS

Some parents have much higher standards of education than schools do.
Even good state school tend to pander to the lower achievers and not the higher achievers.
As a home schooler I found the German actions shocking, bearing in mind that it was Hitler who outlawed home education.

My child returned to school temporarily. Though very unhappy about returning to start with in time friends were made, socially she did fantastically and to trump it all, often she was the only child who behaved in the class and listened to the teacher. She wanted to learn whereas too many of the others did not have that hunger. Her end of year report was fantastic and lets bear in mind she hadn't even set foot in a state school for 4 1/2 years.

We returned to home education because going to school sent her backwards educationally and the next school had been assessed as 'not a good school' and 'unsafe environment' by the inspectors.

The german story is very concerning in that the state OWNS the children and they do not belong to a family with loving parents in the eyes of a very 'concerning' ideology.

All must be kept dumbed down.

There are some concerning stories about german schooling but I think we can find that in schools all around the world.

The problem with home schooling, for the state, is that when it is done properly with no indoctrination from the parents just education and an encouragement for imaginative thought, deep research, open minded philosophy with a hunger to discover the thoughts and ideas of others, then the education is mind expanding, truly enlightening and produces a very intelligent and strong minded individual with the capacity to entertain many possibilities at the same time.

Now we can't have that, can we?

Dare we have people who don't just accept what the state or an 'official body' tells them?

Was it Einstein who said that we are not to believe anything we are told, but we should always think the opposite if we want to get to the truth?

Was it Einstein who said we should not let schooling get in the way of our education?

Maybe schools really are bad where you live, I don't know.
I heard about low educational standards in other countries, but I would ask you not to judge our schools by your standards.

Granted, there are also differences in quality between schools in Germany, which is to be expected, since education is regulated by the individual federal states here.

And of course there are also pupils who need special / supplementary attention, but that's what remedial teaching is for. Also, only because you send your children off to school doesn't mean you as a parent are no longer obliged to partake in their education.

I really don't understand the fuzz about it... most people here are satisfied with our system and the results are good too.

Originally posted by Elliot
As a home schooler I found the German actions shocking, bearing in mind that it was Hitler who outlawed home education.

No.
Mandatory schooling in Germany was first implemented in Pfalz-Zweibrücken in 1592, and last in the state of Sachsen in 1835... slightly before Hitlers time.

Also, the state doesn't OWN the children... and neither do parents, or are you free to harm your children where you live? People cannot be owned here.

reply to post by ColCurious

Naturally I respect your opinion greatly.

But there it is, we have to respect eachothers views, opinions and feelings on everything and that includes the rights to educate their own children.

FREEDOM of choice vanished a long, long time ago in history as soon as the Elites discovered that humans could be programmed to obey and follow the herd.
Few know or remember and even acknowledge what freedom of choice is.

Yes. The schools in our area can be bad....but not all by any means. There are some truly first class schools in the UK with wonderful teachers, but sadly the opposite also exists.

reply to post by Elliot

Good post.
From a minarchistic point of view I almost completely agree with you!

I just believe that it is the children themselves who deserve the freedom of choice in this matter, as soon as they are old enough to make that decision... NOT their parents for them.

If irresponsible parents were allowed to deprive their kids of even a minimum of education until they are of age... it would be too late already... the damage would be done.

This is one of the few legitimate functions of the state IMO... the protection of individuals from harm.
Especially individuals who are too young to protect themselves.

reply to post by Elliot

I actually have to give this more thought.

In the end it comes down to who you trust more, and I usually trust individuals more than the state.
I don't know, maybe risking the future of our children like that is just a very high price we have to pay for freedom... at least that's how I see it with the security vs. freedom issue.

Nice talking to you anyways. ATS is always good for provoking thoughts.

The main thing is, school is anything but indoctrination, they get practical education such as calculating, reading, writing, history, biology, economy, nationalism, race and racism, that cannot be qualified as indoctrination.

And collectively we pay tax so that every child has freely access to education because it provides them with a good base for their future.
Nothing wrong with that.

If i google this family, it is mainly non european news sites that report on it, ohh europe socialism bad bad bad...
And above all, they have faith in god, that is ok, that is their choice, but do not decide for the children and keep them away from school.

I feel sorry for this family, i know first hand what it is like to be taken away, but i also understand the reason behind it.

They seem to have traveled for years to escape the obligation of their kids to go to school but came back to Germany, knowingly that their kids have to go to school.
Since there is no indoctrination going on in school, why is school so bad? is it maybe because they also learn about evolution, the flower and the bee?

With regard to home schooling or going to school we have ALWAYS given our child the choice.


But I believe in choice and FREEDOM.

Originally posted by beezzer
As a home-school parent, I'm deeply disturbed by this. God forbid that it should happen in the US some day. . . .

Doesn't it happen in the US already with other things?

Originally posted by NoRulesAllowed
I am sorry, in Germany and other European it is simply LAW that you *must* attend public education up to a certain age.

This is certainly one reason why many Europeans USUALLY have a much higher educational standard as compared to people from the US who often cannot even find their own country on a map or speak any other language. This is a simple truth. In addition, good education in Europe does not cost anything, it is NOT a matter of the size of your wallet as is the case in the US.

If you do not accept this and for some reason believe you are above the law, then please move to another country where homeschooling is an option. In those countries it is not - education is on one hand a RIGHT for everyone, regardless of their finances and social standing but also on the other hand mandatory because A LOT depends on your education, like your future job and your entire life.

Your comparison holds no water because an extreme minority of people bother with homeschooling in the US, and homeschooling is not the reason for many Americans not being able to find their own country on a map or speak another language. The poor education system in this country does just fine by itself when it comes to poorly educating the public.

The fact that you claim that Europe's higher education standards are a result of a strict ban on homeschooling when the US has a crap education system and a pretty educationally sub-par population despite barely anyone homeschooling in the US shows that you just threw out a pretty half assed strawman argument.

Originally posted by aLLeKs

Originally posted by sonnny1


What harm is schooling your child, at home?

They are missing a big part of social life that comes with attending a school with other kids.

....and please if you are American don't try to teach us Europeans about freedom, I think Germany is a country with more freedom than the US.

WOW, the government must really be concerned for the children's social life, so much so that they send a heavily armed swat team to drag them out to socialize...

Getting closer worldwide:

2nd

reply to post by LockNLoad

Funny you should say that as in July and August of this year the UK had a private members bill read in parliament to bring back conscription. It's third reading will be on the 6th of September.
They keep trying and trying........