It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by badgerprints
Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by charles1952
I don't think liberals hate, but I do often feel as though their perceptions are coloured emotionally.
So conservatives aren't emotional but they hate?
Liberals are emotional but they don't hate?
This is the problem with people in politics.
They arbitrarily pick and choose how they are going to feel about others, then they make up some twisted set of rules to justify what they think.
That is a very useful way of looking at things. Reversal often clarifies issues. But you seem to be providing arguments for the other team.
Consider for a moment the the flip side, the counter argument...when it comes to conservatives we are governed by people who either don't like or don't trust government. That's not very functional either.
I seem to be making a habit of disappointing you, and for that I am sincerely sorry. May I honestly and openly explain my thinking?
Charles1952, I'm not sure exactly what you think of this essay that you created this thread for, but by your last sentence or two in your OP, it would seem you agree with it. Generally you're a more sensible and critical-thinking person than that, from the posts/comments of yours I have read. Must say that I am terribly unimpressed with this one.
But is this the point of the discussion? Isn't the question whether this article is correct, and not why it was posted? If there are threads criticizing liberals on this wide open forum, does that have any bearing on whether the article posted in this thread is erroneous?
But let me ask all of you here in this thread piping in on how right this essay is: why is it that conservatives have to make threads about how evil/stupid/wrong-headed/immoral/etc liberals are? At least here at ATS, I don't see a lot of threads by liberals doing the same thing to conservatives. Yes, there are threads pointing out specific actions by conservative/GOP lawmakers or individuals, but liberals don't tend to rant about conservatives per se.
"Based on these definitions," yes, you're right. But as you point out, the definitions are wrong. Liberals "argue that the government should get out of health care?" They are opposed to "government interference with the market?" Obamacare is proof against the first assertion, and the bailouts, Solyndra and Tesla, and renewable energy subsidies are proof against the other. And please remember the run amok Mayor Bloomberg.
Based on these definitions, is it not fair to say that liberals value individual liberty and personal freedom? They also promote ideas such as free market economics instead of centralized banking and government interference with the market. They argue that the government should get out of healthcare for that reason, and point to places like Hong Kong as a prime example of what free market capitalism can achieve.
They are not presenting the liberal position as maintained in the US system.
We believe the best distribution and highest standard of living is done under a free market system. You have an obligation personally to help someone in need, but the government doesn't have the right to take something from you and deliver it out to someone on the streets
Whether you're accurately interpreting beezzer or not is up to him to declare, but I think here you're closer to the generally understood positions of the two groups than the OED definitions or your earlier comments.
According to our old bud beezzer here, liberals are actually like hippies or something who lean towards socialism or collectivism, where as the conservatives place a high importance on personal responsibility and individualism.
And here, instead of using the OED definitions, I was using the hefficide definitions. The way he was defining the words blurred the distinction in my mind. I largely accepted his position, but between the two of us we were trying to find out which was the best word to use. I was not saying that I might be a liberal in the sense of Obama, Pelosi, or Harry Reid.
And you are using words like "liberties" to define a conservative, and saying that conservatives place a high importance on a non-invasive government and few regulations... after telling us that you could be a liberal, but you're not sure.
I hope he was not saying that, but if he was, I disagree that this is the best post of all. It would be claiming that socialism is for smart people and capitalism is for stupid people. People who do not support socialism are stupid?
I think this is the best post of all actually. This poster is saying that liberals are smarter because they understand the benefit of socialist philosophies and working together to achieve common goals, and that the conservatives are leading us to destruction as they seek individual freedom.
He points out that liberal policies have the almost universal effect of reducing peoples' freedom, quality of life, or even life itself
Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by votan
It seems liberals might say they love people by depriving them of any choice which makes them truly people.
It seems conservatives might say they love people by treating them as adults, and relying on good education, parents, teachers, and churches to provide the information they need to make good decisions.
Actually, I disagree. But, whatever unpleasant labels we put on them only clouds the issue for me.
Extreme right is fascism
Extreme left is socialism/communism
Here, I completely agree with you. There does need to be a balance. Some problems can only be handled at the national level, most can be handled by the states, either individually or in concert. Many problems can be handled by city or county governments, and some problems don't need government at all.
There needs to be balance but your bias is showing
Forgive me for wondering if your analogy is apt. I think, rather, the question is who should make decisions the majority of the time, people or government officials. Liberals and conservatives, it seems to me, choose different sides.
I don't buy into either left or right. One is a hammer thinking every problem is a nail... one is a screw driver that thinks everything is a screw... The reality is that you need all these tools to build your project.