If Christianity was a Hoax .....

reply to post by jiggerj

LOL That is such a cop out, WW. If I create an all-powerful, glowing worm and tell people that this worm told me to love my neighbors, does that make the worm more valid or more believable?

LOL If you could create an all powerful glow worm, could it tell you anything that you didn't already know? At any rate, even if you imagined or made up a story about an all powerful glow worm that said "Love you neighbor" the words are still good words to live by.

Buddha was just a man who had some cool things to say that resonated true to the people who listened to him. Whether or not Jesus was God, which I don't believe he was, what he is reported to have said, is, for the most part, good stuff to live by, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

Theres far too many to list my friend...

No man had seen God before Jesus popped onto the scene.... Jesus was apparently a jew, yet he was a horrible jew because he changed the rules and broke them as well...

Unfortunately I don't have time to walk you through the hundreds of passages that point to the OT God being a false God.... on my way to work... but i'll check in on this thread later tonight

read this if you like

Jesus Vs the imposter

edit on 31-8-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

If you make a statement like that it has to come from the Bible. Just give me 1 example. Didnt Moses see God? Giving me something that isnt from the bible itself is just an opinion. I have read the Bible and never seen this before. Just give me 1 verse. Im not asking you to quote them all. It has to be something from the Bible itself though as you said the Bible said this. Just 1 verse to prove your claim. I am seriously interested.

Moses did see God. Adam and Eve walked with God.

reply to post by greavsie1971


You really believe a Christian book would blatantly state our God is a false God?

They designed one God to fit the other... you have to look a bit harder...

and not be influenced by outside sources in order to see the truth of the matter...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

You really believe a Christian book would blatantly state our God is a false God?

They designed one God to fit the other... you have to look a bit harder...

and not be influenced by outside sources in order to see the truth of the matter...

You say 'Christian' in a way that implies you are not christian. Then you say 'our God'. Who is your God then? Are you muslim?

Actually I think I get what you mean. ignore the above line.
I still see no evidence on your part. I have studied scriptures for years, Christian and Muslim yet your ideas are totally new to me. Where do you get them from?


Have you studied the hebrew versions?

reply to post by greavsie1971


John 10:8 is a good place to start.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

John 10:8 is a good place to start.

Ok lets put that in context. As you know this is a parable......so we need to start a couple of verses before.....

John 10:1-6 is an analogy of how sheep do not follow robbers and thieves because they are strange and the sheep don't know their voice, but sheep will follow the voice of the shepherd. Anyone who enters through the roof of the barn, and not through the door, is a thief. John 10:7 starts the next analogy, where Jesus is the shepherd that guides the flock, as well as the door. We are the sheep. If we trust in him, if we go through him (for salvation etc.) then we will have shelter and pasture. Anyone trying to get or offer these things through any other way than Jesus is acting a thief (Satan, false prophets, etc.)

!:8 is basically saying the sheep (followers of the shepard) do not follow the thieves.



Are you sure this is the correct verse? It seems to have nothing to do with what you are saying.

reply to post by greavsie1971


The context doesn't change what he said, which was that everyone who came before him was a thief and robber. Yahweh came before him.

Look at John 8:44 as well. He was talking to the Pharisees and called their father (god) the devil. As we know, the Pharisees worshiped Yahweh.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

Anyone who came before him was a thief and robber. Yahweh came before him.

Look at John 8:44 as well. He was talking to the Pharisees and called their father (god) the devil. As we know, the Pharisees worshiped Yahweh.

No, No, NO, you have it all wrong. This is a parable. Ill say it again, a parable describing how his followers are not followers of thieves. It has no mention of Yahweh. It is a parable about sheep, thieves and shepards. All it is saying is that his followers will not follow thieves (or evil entities ie, satan, fallen angels). Sorry mate but you should read the verses before and after to gain an understanding.

The Pharisees were a bunch of frauds. They were letting the money changers in the temple. (bankers).

I admire your willingness to understand this but you are way off the mark on this one. Sorry. respect though.


Jesus knows the Pharisee are a bunch of frauds and is essentially telling them that which they don't like a whole lot.

The Pharisees think God/Yaweh is their father, but Jesus flat out tells them that SATAN is their father because they are rejecting Jesus's teachings, not to mention doing the things Abraham did, and they are looking to kill Jesus for telling them different.



Where are you getting your information from? David Icke? lol, sorry only joking.

reply to post by greavsie1971


So he never said "everyone who came before me was a thief and robber"? What did he mean by that part? Nothing?

So he said it for no reason. Gotcha.

The Pharisees still worshiped Yahweh. I don't even know why you asked for the scripture, you knew you were going to reject it all along.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

So he never said "everyone who came before me was a thief and robber"? What did he mean by that part? Nothing?

So he said it for no reason. Gotcha.

The Pharisees still worshiped Yahweh. I don't even know why you asked for the scripture, you knew you were going to reject it all along.

He was saying he is the shepard and the thieves came before him, the sheep did not understand the thieves. They only recognised the voices of the shepard...Jesus. Remember it is a parable not literal. Hes is basically saying the followers of Jesus would not be tempted to follow thieves and robbers.

The pharisees THOUGHT they worshipped Yahweh but Jesus told them they were worshipping satan. They then wanted him killed.


Im just explaining what these verses mean. I was interested to learn if the Bible stated the OT God was not the NT God as I thought I would learn something new. Im not here to disprove anything, I just want to learn and get to the truth.



Please dont be offended as I think you seem like a descent person. Sorry if I have upset you

reply to post by greavsie1971


And Yahweh came before Jesus... I'm not sure what you don't understand about that.

Just like Christians today believe they worship god but really worship Satan. Christians pastors today are in the same boat as the Pharisees were back then.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

And Yahweh came before Jesus... I'm not sure what you don't understand about that.

Just like Christians today believe they worship god but really worship Satan. Christians pastors today are in the same boat as the Pharisees were back then.

He is not talking about anything literal.....its a parable. A parable is a story to increase understanding. It has no mention of Yahweh. It is talking about sheep , thieves , robbers and shepards. read the verses before.....it explains it perfectly.


I have offended you as you are getting stroppy now. Lets leave it here. Im sorry you feel I have it wrong. I would just say you should read the parables of Jesus and you will understand how they are meant to be understood. You have totally mis understood the concept of parables. I know it is hard to change your views on things like this so I wish you the best.
I agree with what you say about some pastors. Christianity in the US is broken. Badly. As are most things there.


Peace.

reply to post by greavsie1971


Not getting stroppy, I'm just saying that it's a simple concept. Everyone who came before Jesus was a thief and a robber. It means exactly what it says. Yahweh came before Jesus, so by logical deduction he also meant Yahweh because he said "everyone".

I don't mean to offend you.

reply to post by greavsie1971


On my iphone from work so bear with me

You say 'Christian' in a way that implies you are not christian. Then you say 'our God'. Who is your God then? Are you muslim?

No.... I have no label for my beliefs... They are what they are

I still see no evidence on your part. I have studied scriptures for years, Christian and Muslim yet your ideas are totally new to me. Where do you get them from?

The Same place you get your beliefs from... And i have also studied various religions for years as well... Excluding islam... Never found any interest in that religion... But i know its based around the OT God so it falls into the same catagory...

Ask yourself a question... The OT says god is a jealous god...

IF he is the one true God.... Who is he jealous of?

I'll be back when i have some free time

reply to post by greavsie1971

If the worm had 66 books written about it by various people over centuries, it would be a very special worm indeed. If we just had your word for it, I would say you were a liar.

Okay, I'll hire people to author 66 books on the accounts of others that have had experiences with the glow worm. Books are not proof of anything. Even a book on scientific formulas doesn't prove anything. The proof only comes when we use those formulas and find that they are true and actually work. This doesn't happen with the bible. It's proof is a statement that is clarified in another section of the bible. This is not proof - it's a fictional story where the characters and events are weaved throughout the whole book, and cannot be verified anywhere outside of the book.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by greavsie1971

 

The context doesn't change what he said, which was that everyone who came before him was a thief and robber. Yahweh came before him.

Look at John 8:44 as well. He was talking to the Pharisees and called their father (god) the devil. As we know, the Pharisees worshiped Yahweh.

edit on 31-8-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Jesus was talking about Jewish leaders that came before him. Those that took care of themselves and not those that listened to them, the sheep, all while talking about and giving the illusion Godly righteousness.

Ezekiel 34 and Jeremiah 23 also speak to the those who were not tending to their flocks properly.

edit: This is just my understanding. I'm not fit to teach anybody, anything.

reply to post by windword

LOL If you could create an all powerful glow worm, could it tell you anything that you didn't already know? At any rate, even if you imagined or made up a story about an all powerful glow worm that said "Love you neighbor" the words are still good words to live by. Buddha was just a man who had some cool things to say that resonated true to the people who listened to him. Whether or not Jesus was God, which I don't believe he was, what he is reported to have said, is, for the most part, good stuff to live by, in my opinion.

I can't disagree on this part. But when we accept a truth based on a fictional character, then (as we are seeing all over the world today) certain falsehoods are also accepted as truth - horrendous and downright stupid acts of murder in the name of a god, oppression and rape of women, religious intolerance of other religions. For some reason when we humans allow a silly little lie to spread throughout the masses (that gods exist), we take it to the extreme.

Originally posted by jiggerj
But when we accept a truth based on a fictional character.

Are you asserting that the Biblical Jesus didn't actually exist, at all?

It's my understanding that most legitimate scholars are in agreement with the fact that the man was real. His deification and resulting religion, one could dispute, but I think it's an extreme stretch to try and dissolve him from history.

Originally posted by slowisfast

Originally posted by jiggerj
But when we accept a truth based on a fictional character.

Are you asserting that the Biblical Jesus didn't actually exist, at all?

It's my understanding that most legitimate scholars are in agreement with the fact that the man was real. His deification and resulting religion, one could dispute, but I think it's an extreme stretch to try and dissolve him from history.

Not at all. I'm saying Jesus was wrapped in historical fiction.

reply to post by slowisfast


For hundreds of years no one questioned the existence of Jesus, if they did, bad things would happen. But these days more and more people are asking for proof, and coming up empty. More and more people are asking for answers other than "the Bible says so".

A number of scholars[9] and writers, known informally as "mythicists," insist there is no convincing evidence for a historical Jesus at all. If the entire story is a myth, then he could hardly have risen from the dead.

The life of Jesus is not corroborated. Not a single word about Jesus appears outside of the New Testament in the entire first century, even though many writers documented first-hand the early Roman Empire in great detail, including careful accounts of the time and place where Jesus supposedly taught. The little paragraph about Jesus that appears in Josephus' Antiquities (written after 90 CE) is regarded by liberal and conservative scholars to have been either entirely interpolated or drastically altered by a later generation of believers, probably by the dishonest Christian historian Eusebius in the 4th century[11]. (Whichever view is right, they both agree that early Christians tampered with documents, a fact that must bear on the reliability of the New Testament writings.)

The handful of 2nd-century references to "Christ" are too late to be of much value. They are brief 2nd- or 3rd-hand accounts of what some people by that time believed had happened in their distant past, and none of them mention the name "Jesus." They are hearsay, not history.
ffrf.org...

Christian historicity researcher David Fitzgerald wrote, “In the earliest Christian writings, such as the seven genuine epistles of Paul, Christ is a spiritual being revealed in Jewish Scripture, rather than a recent historical figure. Decades later the anonymous author of what we call ‘The gospel according to Mark’ wrote an allegorical story of this mythological Christ set in pre-war Judea, borrowing from many ancient religious and literary motifs. The idea of a Christ come to earth was irresistible; later Christians loved the story and couldn't help but make their own corrections and additions to ‘Mark's’ text, turning a purely literary creation into the basis of their own imagined biographies. Dozens of these gospels were written, and centuries later four of them were eventually selected to form the beginning of our familiar New Testament.”
www.godlessgeeks.com...