Were the Police right this time.....

Originally posted by Jamuhn
As for your insinuation that I am a paranoid schizophrenic, well, you just go to prove my dislike for the BUSINESS of physchiatry (you are involved in this BUSINESS aren't you Grady?). Ironic how my past psychiatrist's name was Dr. Looney, eh?

Well, I didn't insuate that you are schizophrenic and in fact, the content we see here, especially in the political forums, is not typically of the psychotic variety. But living with such constant and overwhelming distrust of authroity is not healthy, either. I do know about corrupt police departments, but New Orleans, fortunately was not typical of US law enforcement. Most cops are not rotten. Most don't go to work looking for an opportunity to electrify a six-year-old.

I understand what you are saying Grady. But, a police officer doesn't have to be looking to shock someone to be seen as using excessive force. If something like this were the case it would have arisen out of the heat of the moment. All I was trying to say by that comment is to take things on a case by case basis and to think about what YOU would do in the situation, not to accept another's action as acceptable/unacceptable by reason of the person's status. There is a delicate balance to be had in trust/distrust, and strong notions towards EITHER side has never been fruitful in the long run.

Originally posted by elevatedone
thanks for those links...

however, they basically serve the same purpose....

Stun Gun - you have to be close to the person to use

Taser - shoots the wires into a person from a distance (15 - 20 ft )

Both giving pretty much the same result....

Taser is more of a stand-off weapon. I'd say if the cop used a stun gun he could have grabbed the kid's arm.

Then again, with kids in Texas on up to 17 mind-altering psyche medications, who knows what the kid could have done to himself.

Stun gun seems like overkill. Six-year-old children weigh what, 60 pounds and stand at 4'?

A trained cop against a 6yr old boy - use a tazer/stun (whichthehellever) are you kidding?

The cop (or ANY adult for that matter) could not at least kick a piece of glass out of the hands of a LITTLE BOY !!! FFS what is wrong with this picture?????

Misfit

As much as it pains me to agree with Grady....J/K....LOL

If it happened as they said I think they were right. If the kid had of killed himself or slashed the cops it would have been worse. I have worked with police in the past and although a lot are strutting loud-mouths I havent met very many that I thought would do something like that for fun. The fact they called in their commander shows it was thought out.

If they tried to wrestle the glass away from him it could have turned bloody quick and a kick hard enough to dislodge the glass could have resulted in a broken arm. This case was one of those damned if you do cases

[edit on 13-11-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Misfit
A trained cop against a 6yr old boy - use a tazer/stun (whichthehellever) are you kidding?

The cop (or ANY adult for that matter) could not at least kick a piece of glass out of the hands of a LITTLE BOY !!! FFS what is wrong with this picture?????

Misfit

Yeah but then you kick the kid and oops he cuts himself more. Then it's in the news that cops stomp little boys with their jackboots or whatever.

Personally I would have had everyone leave the room but myself then just sit down and talk to the boy. But I don't know whole situation and no one here seems to know the exact situation.

It was a pre-emptive strike for the childs safety
I bet the mothers of those officers are proud!!

geo

Originally posted by Misfit
A trained cop against a 6yr old boy - use a tazer/stun (whichthehellever) are you kidding?

The cop (or ANY adult for that matter) could not at least kick a piece of glass out of the hands of a LITTLE BOY !!! FFS what is wrong with this picture?????

Misfit

What if the cop kicked and missed?...Even worse...what if the cop kicked and broke the kids hand?...then who'd be to blame?...

Sounds fine to me. The police don't usually wanna stun kids (I'm hoping) so I'm sure they had no other choice.

If the situation was the kid was threatening to hurt other kids (maybe one of your own kids), I'm sure you'd all have no problem with the police stunning him. This is the same thing except he was trying to hurt himself.

Good job to the police for not letting anyone else get hurt.

What in the hell is wrong with the country? First off, if a security guard or principal can't stop of 6-year old from hurting themself, neither one should be on the job. The kid is still a baby!! I once babysat an 8-year old boy when I was 15 (I'm female), and he had grabbed a butcher knife, and started jumping up and down on the bed and slashing it at me.....I grabbed his arm, and grabbed the knife....And you don't need to kick it out of his hand....Walk up and grab his arm....It's not brain surgery!!

Second, I totally agree with you Misfit, a trained cop can't get a piece of glass out of a six-year old's hand? And these guys are going to protect us from terrorism? Glad they don't patrol my city!!

Third, what is going on when we have 6-year olds that are suicidal? My heart breaks for those kids and this country....

And last, I cannot believe any of you would agree to tasering a little kid...My God, what is wrong with you people? You would be afraid to take a piece of glass from a 6-year old? I hope you never have to go to war and fight!!

Wait, wait, wait. We are talking about a SIX YEAR OLD BOY here. With a piece of glass and at most five feet away (they were all in an office) from the officers in question. Here's a simple way to deal with that situation: Grab the damn kid's hand. If he cuts himself a little, a bandaid will probably fix it. Much better than the possible damage, both physical and psychological, that an electric shock could do to a six year old child.

Think back to when you were six years old. How much damage do you think you could have done to your leg with a piece of glass in the second before someone grabbed you. Unless the kid was 5 feet tall, worked out, took steroids, and was medically trained in the location of vital arteries in the leg, there is quite simply no rationale and no excuse in this situation for using a stun gun, tazer, or ANY weapon for that matter. I can't believe that you folks can feel that these actions were justified! If there was actual video of the incident; some little child being zapped by 6'2" muscle-bound cop and twitching on the floor in pain, I'm sure you'd all be screaming for blood.

I teach kids of this age and there is not one that I feel I could not subdue safely in a situation like this. And I'm a 65Kg weakling with zero training in subduing/restraining techniques!

If the kid had a gun or a razor-sharp butcher's knife, then MAYBE this kind of method would be justified. It's not that easy to injure yourself seriously with broken glass in a second, particularly on your leg, and despite what hollywood movies tell us.

But the real criminal here is not the police, it is the authorities that condone and train police to use these methods.

How long before we start rationalizing police using tazers and pepper bullets on old ladies weilding "potentially lethal" handbags? We're frogs in the pot folks, and the jacuuzi's getting hotter, one degree at a time.

You hit it right in the bullseye, We Come In Peace!! And you know what else makes my blood boil? How could an adult watch a kid cut himself under his eye, and not grab it right then and there!! That fact alone, would make me grab that kid in a flash!! If I were that kid's parents, I would make a HUGE issue of this, so that it never happens again!!

Apparently there was another incident now involving a 12 year old girl. Here's the link to the story below:
12 year Old Tasered

Okay, according to the article, the gun was used to subdue the girl because she was drunk and running into traffic. First of all, it's frightening enough to think that a 12 year old had skipped school and gotten drunk by 11am. Supposedly though, police officials are saying the officer who used the gun in this incident was less justified than in the incident with the 6 year old so they are investigating.

This strikes me as odd. While I always think it is difficult for anyone to judge the intensity of a situation involving police officers and people's lives, I due tend to think it would be more likely that an officer could grab and subdue the distraught 6 year old. However, in the case of the 12 year old, I would think that if she had broken away from the officer and he saw her running toward oncoming traffice, the use of the gun in that instance for her safety would be more justified. In other words, from reading the info, I have more trouble with the use of the gun with the 6 year old than with the 12 year old.

Playing devil's advocate for just a moment for the police, it is very easy to underestimate the strength, agility, and frustration of a child at any age. I have a 6 year old special needs child and it often amazes me at times just how strong he is and how difficult it can be to calm or, when necessary, restrain him when he becomes frustrated in certain circumstances. Again, I'm not saying I think the officer should not have tried to find a better way to get hold of him such as just grabbing him even if he was holding a piece of glass, but I'm also thinking that this child must have been pretty agitated to even think of hurting himself let alone actually doing it especially at such a young age. Obviously, that boy had some extraordinary issues for this to have happened at all.

Just my 2 cents on the issue.

Mod Edit: Fixed Link

[edit on 11/15/04 by FredT]

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Wait, wait, wait. We are talking about a SIX YEAR OLD BOY here. With a piece of glass and at most five feet away (they were all in an office) from the officers in question. Here's a simple way to deal with that situation: Grab the damn kid's hand. If he cuts himself a little, a bandaid will probably fix it. Much better than the possible damage, both physical and psychological, that an electric shock could do to a six year old child.

If the kid cut himself because of police action the only thing that would happen is A) Cops getting in trouble B) Lawsuit C) Negative media times ten....what if the cop got cut?...cops are people too...and by the way...this kid had problems way before a shock...

I admit I don't like unfair cops at all and it seems I always meet the unfair ones (motor scooter, walks early in the morning-3AM), but the cops did the right thing.

Glass can cut thin skin just by touching it, you also dont know if the 6yrs old had it right at his neck at the time.

As for shocks, the closer the two electrodes are on the body (except direcctly across the heart) the less nerves/muscles and organs are between the path of current. Since the current trys to travel the shortest path it can (the path of least resistance), its safe to say that any current that reached the kids heart was reduced alot, young hearts are stronger anyway.

I have been shocked by 1800V at 280 joules from a 176uF capacitor and it was from fore arm to finger tip and my hand swung pretty hard and I saw blackness and extream pain for a second but my heart didn't stop. Wall outlets are for sissys...kidding. I've also been shocked by 4000V at 0.5uF, it hurt, but it was not anywhere near as bad.

For hands that aren't sweaty, you start to feel sensation at "about" 36V DC and light pain starts at 60-75V DC.

well...a stun gun? ok thats interesting...do they train the police about stunning young children?? has it even been tested on children as live subjects?? thats an even more interesting question...

maybe the call to the commander was to check if it was lethal to children that young....

6 year olds can be demons so i don't doubt the cops judgement that they needed it...the sad thing is there wasn't any other alternative...

kids of flubbed up these days

Originally posted by BasementAddix
If the kid cut himself because of police action the only thing that would happen is A) Cops getting in trouble B) Lawsuit C) Negative media times ten....what if the cop got cut?...cops are people too...and by the way...this kid had problems way before a shock...

BA, I hope you know that my attitude towards police is fairly well-grounded from some of my other posts on the subject. But in this case, I disagree with you. If the kid cut himself, it wouldn't be blamed on the police, it would be blamed on the kid...or his parents. I think the officer in question acted with questionable judgement.

Let's say the police didn't use a stungun and grabbed him with their hands, but he managed to cut himself once more (let's keep in mind here that the story stated he was threatening to cut his leg, not his throat or his eyeball). Do you think that people would be saying, "Gee, they should have shot him with a damn stungun"? Somehow, I doubt it. And I think a lawsuit is more likely in this case because they did use a stungun. Police have been subduing situations like this for hundreds of years, without tazers or stunguns.

Regarding the threat of injury to the officers, I think this is negligible to say the least. I'll say it again: the subject was a six year old child, and he was not threatening the officers or anybody else. Let that sink in for a bit. If I were the individual police officer responsible in this case, I would be ashamed of what I had done, and I would be expecting some ridicule from my colleagues. "Ohhh, were you scared of da widdle boy wif da widdle piece of glass?"

Police officers have to make judgements in adrenalin situations like this all the time, and they are human and make mistakes. Also we were not there and so cannot make a 100% clear judgement. I do not think that officer should be crucified or sued for what he did at all. But, based on what we know, the officer's judgement was simply WRONG in this case, and it should make us realize that more training is needed in the ethical use of these weapons.