Evolution Vs. God

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Vasa Croe

 

Are we really going to have to put up with a Soapbox thread on creation from you EVERY week?

No!

You don’t have to participate.

I have a mind and logic of my own. Creation is rubbish....

That’s simply your opinion. 84% of the world population has faith (1/3 are Christians). You’re in the minority, friend.

That minority you are referring to are the minority of humans that are intelligent and up to date with the current knowledge of science and technology.

reply to post by tachyonmind


"Micro-evolution over time may lead to speciation or the appearance of novel structure, sometimes classified as macroevolution. Contrary to claims by creationists however, macro and microevolution describe fundamentally identical processes on different time scales."

Please read the sentence. Micro-evolution MAY lead to speciation....this has not been proven or observed and this is exactly why I am saying Macro-evolution is a bogus part of an otherwise decent theory.

Originally posted by Dynamike

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Vasa Croe

 

Are we really going to have to put up with a Soapbox thread on creation from you EVERY week?

No!

You don’t have to participate.

I have a mind and logic of my own. Creation is rubbish....

That’s simply your opinion. 84% of the world population has faith (1/3 are Christians). You’re in the minority, friend.

That minority you are referring to are the minority of humans that are intelligent and up to date with the current knowledge of science and technology.

exactly!

also.. 100% of the world population have faith.. what they have faith in might not be the same as what you have faith in, but that doesn't make it false faith.. 1/3 might be christian, but how many of them actually know jesus when they see him, or understand what he teaches? putting on a tie and going to church might be fun and all, but there is a living God who will speak directly to you, not just through the pages of the bible but through all pages of every book, through every song on the radio and through every person you interact with..

Originally posted by Dynamike

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Vasa Croe

 

That minority you are referring to are the minority of humans that are intelligent and up to date with the current knowledge of science and technology.

Yes we are unintelligent, when lets see it is pretty much accepted by Science that the universe came from absolutely nothing, which is like saying you can get 1 from the number 0 with out a human or machine performing any mathematical functions on it. It is illogical to believe that the universe wasn't created by a supernatural force, and before you argue this lets think a little more. If the universe and all natural forces were created at the big bang then the thing that caused the big bang, whether it be God or something else it is outside of natural forces and therefore supernatural.

Yes we are unintelligent, when lets see it is pretty much accepted by Science that the universe came from absolutely nothing, which is like saying you can get 1 from the number 0 with out a human or machine performing any mathematical functions on it.

science does not accept that the universe came from nothing.. it accepts that it doesn't know what caused the big bang..

It is illogical to believe that the universe wasn't created by a supernatural force, and before you argue this lets think a little more. If the universe and all natural forces were created at the big bang then the thing that caused the big bang, whether it be God or something else it is outside of natural forces and therefore supernatural.

it is illogical to believe anything is supernatural.. if the universe were created by a "supernatural" force, then everything is by default supernatural, therefore natural = supernatural.. supernatural simply means not currently explained, that's all..

the big bang was a natural occurrence, created by a natural process by a natural force.. God is natural, he reveals himself through his laws of nature.. nothing goes against the laws of nature, including God. to say he is supernatural is simply to say he can not be described by current human measurements of nature..

the lack of respect for God's creation by humanity is what is supernatural in my book, supernaturally ignorant..

all got to, turn back to school..
all people can't feel, i follow nature's rule..
i don't know if you realise..
before you get your respect, you gotta be humanised..

reply to post by tachyonmind


A Universe from Nothing Lawrence Krauss.

Originally posted by tachyonmind

the lack of respect for God's creation by humanity is what is supernatural in my book, supernaturally ignorant..

On the contrary.

Most of us Athetists believed in God or some other religious entity simply because our parents told us it was right and were put to shame when we'd question it.

Personally, it was when I dropped my ignorance and began investigating the topic that I lost my faith. And I've never been happier .

And I won't have people calling me ignorant for being Atheist for anything other than the pleasure of irony. So thanks, I guess. You were good for a chuckle.

I like the video but I don't like the Christian spin. Just because someone believes in intelligent design does not mean he or she has to be Christian. More propaganda to push his agenda. Thats what separates believers of evolution and the believers of creation. Evolutionist fall under one flag for the most part. This flag is science. It crosses cultural boundaries. However as a creationist like it was show in the video someone can place their own theological belief on it. I'm sure there's muslim, christian, jewish, buddist and other religion creationist. Why muddy the waters.

I say we as creationist need to throw out or start to look past whatever our parents indoctrinated us with and start to see god in the light "I feel" he should be seen....as universal.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity
Yes, please do show us the observable change in kind and since you cannot observe 60 million years ago, please show it happening today. Finches are still finches, fish are still fish, and bacteria are still bacteria.

Holy f*king sh*tstorm of voluntary stupidity. Are you serious?



/thread

If you'd stop spending so much time harvesting fictional stars on an online conspiracy forum, you might be able to invest some time into educating yourself.

Originally posted by LightOrange

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity
Yes, please do show us the observable change in kind and since you cannot observe 60 million years ago, please show it happening today. Finches are still finches, fish are still fish, and bacteria are still bacteria.

Holy f*king sh*tstorm of voluntary stupidity. Are you serious?

/thread

If you'd stop spending so much time harvesting fictional stars on an online conspiracy forum, you might be able to invest some time into educating yourself.

edit on 29-8-2013 by LightOrange because: (no reason given)

Um, Ok so he just showed a bunch of examples of how salamanders adapted to their environment, but once again none of the animals showed any signs of diverting from a salamander.

Originally posted by LightOrange

Originally posted by tachyonmind

the lack of respect for God's creation by humanity is what is supernatural in my book, supernaturally ignorant..

On the contrary.

Most of us Athetists believed in God or some other religious entity simply because our parents told us it was right and were put to shame when we'd question it.

Personally, it was when I dropped my ignorance and began investigating the topic that I lost my faith. And I've never been happier

.

And I won't have people calling me ignorant for being Atheist for anything other than the pleasure of irony. So thanks, I guess. You were good for a chuckle.

bro, i'm an atheist too.. i'm not talking about any particular people disrespecting the world and its life, i'm talking about all people! xD

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
reply to post by tachyonmind

 

A Universe from Nothing Lawrence Krauss.

this is an interesting book, but it does not prove that science believes it all came from literally nothing, it is a scientific critique of cosmology, and defines nothing as a something, namely a "quantum vacuum"..

David Albert for The New York Times criticizes the book for failing to live up to its title, and criticizes Krauss for dismissing concerns about his use of the term nothing to refer to a quantum vacuum instead of "a philosopher's or theologian's idealized 'nothing'" (i.e. instead of having the meaning "not anything")

wikiwiki

reply to post by tachyonmind


So you say its not accepted by Science that the universe came from nothing then state that the big bang is exactly how the universe was created which is precisely that the theory that says the universe came from nothing hmmmmm...

But lets change the subject for just a second. If God is natural please explain to me in use of natural forces how he was able to predict the future, and their are many examples of this in the Bible, and this is one of its most amazing evidences in my opinon.

21 “Present your case,” says the Lord.
“Set forth your arguments,” says Jacob’s King.
22 “Tell us, you idols,
what is going to happen.
Tell us what the former things were,
so that we may consider them
and know their final outcome.
Or declare to us the things to come,
23 tell us what the future holds,
so we may know that you are gods.

I'll give you two examples

What is the mathematical possibility of just one man accidentally fulfilling, or maybe even purposefully manipulating over 300 predictions written hundreds of years before his birth?

Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students. The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented.
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000
After examining eight different prophecies in a similar fashion they combined the probabilities and conservatively estimated there is one chance in 10^17 (one, followed by 17 zeros) of a single person fulfilling them all.

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb

Um, Ok so he just showed a bunch of examples of how salamanders adapted to their environment, but once again none of the animals showed any signs of diverting from a salamander.

Oh so what you're looking for is transitional fossils.





/thread again.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Vasa Croe

 

Are we really going to have to put up with a Soapbox thread on creation from you EVERY week?

No!

You don’t have to participate.

I have a mind and logic of my own. Creation is rubbish....

That’s simply your opinion. 84% of the world population has faith (1/3 are Christians). You’re in the minority, friend.

That doesn't make it any more real though. Christianity is yet another bastardisation of previous religions, Horus and Isis =Mary and Jesus. Noah and the great flood = Epic of Gilgamesh

If Christianity could have come up with something more original than stealing previous incarnations, as i'm sure all religions have done, then maybe we would believe more

I stopped believing in god about the same time as Santa and the Tooth Fairy

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


The modern theory of The Big Bang is a process that begins with a particle that humans would generally percieve as nothing, yes. It's not exactly nothing, though. Nothing is really nothing. Not even a vacuum.

If you start from the starting point of The Big Bang and work unbiased in a prediction of what would happen, you could expect the universe to look and behave exactly as it does.

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb

Originally posted by LightOrange

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity
Yes, please do show us the observable change in kind and since you cannot observe 60 million years ago, please show it happening today. Finches are still finches, fish are still fish, and bacteria are still bacteria.

Holy f*king sh*tstorm of voluntary stupidity. Are you serious?

/thread

If you'd stop spending so much time harvesting fictional stars on an online conspiracy forum, you might be able to invest some time into educating yourself.

edit on 29-8-2013 by LightOrange because: (no reason given)

Um, Ok so he just showed a bunch of examples of how salamanders adapted to their environment, but once again none of the animals showed any signs of diverting from a salamander.

of course they didn't, you know how long that would take? it's not a feasible experiment to isolate and study a species for thousands of years, now is it?

just studying them in their natural habitat, and comparing current creatures to their predecessors' fossils is enough to substantiate evolution.

I am also quit aware of the gaps within the Fossil records but nice try

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
reply to post by tachyonmind

 

So you say its not accepted by Science that the universe came from nothing then state that the big bang is exactly how the universe was created which is precisely that the theory that says the universe came from nothing hmmmmm...

the big bang theory does not say that the universe came from nothing, it says that at the very first instant of its existence, the big bang happened.. that is all.. it makes no claims to knowing how the big bang came to be, it only describes the behaviour of the universe in its earliest measurable state.

But lets change the subject for just a second. If God is natural please explain to me in use of natural forces how he was able to predict the future, and their are many examples of this in the Bible, and this is one of its most amazing evidences in my opinon.

He was able to predict the future because He is the past present and future..

21 “Present your case,” says the Lord.
“Set forth your arguments,” says Jacob’s King.
22 “Tell us, you idols,
what is going to happen.
Tell us what the former things were,
so that we may consider them
and know their final outcome.
Or declare to us the things to come,
23 tell us what the future holds,
so we may know that you are gods.

I'll give you two examples

What is the mathematical possibility of just one man accidentally fulfilling, or maybe even purposefully manipulating over 300 predictions written hundreds of years before his birth?

it is a mathematical certainty that this will occur somewhere, naturally.. the probability is low, but it is not impossible.

Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students. The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students.

However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented.

For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000
After examining eight different prophecies in a similar fashion they combined the probabilities and conservatively estimated there is one chance in 10^17 (one, followed by 17 zeros) of a single person fulfilling them all.

so it would happen, naturally.. a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb


I am also quit aware of the gaps within the Fossil records but nice try

edit on 29-8-2013 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)

the gaps in the fossil record disprove evolution but the logic gaps in the theological record don't disprove a literal interpretation of the bible?

nice try

reply to post by LightOrange


And please explain how the Bible is able to predict the future in specific detail. I'll post this again with first example from above and another.

Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students. The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented.
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000
After examining eight different prophecies in a similar fashion they combined the probabilities and conservatively estimated there is one chance in 10^17 (one, followed by 17 zeros) of a single person fulfilling them all.
More than three hundred prophecies from the Old Testament which deal with the first advent of Christ have been listed. Every one of them was completely fulfilled by Jesus Christ. (4)
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of only these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the prophecies. However this is only eight prophecies. How about one person fulfilling just 48 of the over 300 prophecies? Stoner calculated these odds at one chance in 10157 or 1 in
100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000.
— a statistical impossibility.
This is the result from a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the probability that 300 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is beyond measure.
Stoner concludes his research with the following statement: "Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world." (5)

The Second one is t is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd! And he will perform all my desire' and he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built', and of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.'" (Isaiah 44:28)

Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.
The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named "Cyrus" would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom. Ezra later records exactly for us what happened:
“In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying, ‘Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, 'The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all His people, may his God be with him! Let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah and rebuild the house of the Lord”. Ezra 1:1-3

and you can use this one to see that daniel predicted the exact day Jesus would ride in on the donkey and this day is the only day he allowed anyone to claim his publicly as the messiah