It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why did Jesus preach an incomplete message?

page: 3
7
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 01:31 AM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 

That Jesus died for our sins and that good works are not needed, only faith. Paul's entire doctrine basically.

Paul didn't say that people did not have to be righteous.
When he was saying that righteousness did not come from "works" he meant those things in the Old Testament that made a person distinctively "Jewish", such as what and with who a person ate, and the clothes he wore, and the days he observed, and whether or not he was circumcised.
When Paul talked about "Faith", he meant it as a term for the thing in the new covenant that the Mosaic Law served as in the old covenant. So that there was righteousness by following the law of faith rather than the old written and codified law in the Torah.
edit on 28-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 01:37 AM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Reading comprehension. He said everything his Father taught him, he made known to his apostles. Everything means everything, not some things or a few things, it means everything.

What, in your opinion, was Jesus sent here to do exactly?
edit on 28-8-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 02:09 AM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 

Reading comprehension.

Try reading the entire verse rather than just a few words from it.
What does "his master's business" mean?

Jesus had to be arrested and tried, killed and then be risen from the dead, and ascend into heaven.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 02:16 AM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


What Jesus taught obviously.

What purpose did his death and ascension serve other than to save us from sin? If I'm not mistaken, you don't believe that part of Christianity.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 02:26 AM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 

What Jesus taught obviously.
The Greek says "what he is doing".
You are making an assumption that does not fit the context.
Also, according to the grammar of the word translated as "heard", it means in the Greek, "continuing to hear", rather than something only in the past.

What purpose did his death and ascension serve other than to save us from sin? If I'm not mistaken, you don't believe that part of Christianity.
I believe that Jesus' death was a necessary part of the plan of salvation. What I don't believe is the mechanism some people insert as a theory of how it is accomplished.

In some people's mind, if you took a Christian person who any other normal Christian would take as being very righteous, he would actually be absolutely evil because he did not follow the Old Testament laws. His only hope of being "saved" is by Jesus continuing to "pay" for those sins (meaning his not following all those old Jewish laws).
That is a really sick way of looking at things, but it was exactly what Paul was confronted with and what he had to deal with in his letters, especially Romans.
edit on 28-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 03:02 AM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Jesus says everything he has "heard" from his Father he has "made known" to his apostles. Look up the lexicon for John 15:15 and it will tell you the same. Hearing something is to learn, and passing that learning on to someone is to teach, so his masters business was his teachings.

I think I'll stop here though, because I know you love arguing semantics and I'm not really in the mood for that. You can make anything mean anything you want through semantics.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 03:37 AM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 
It's not "semantics", it is a matter of translation.
What it says in an English translation is secondary to the original that was written in Greek.
You are the one dealing in semantics by taking part of a verse out of context and on then arguing the meaning of an English word while going off from what the original meant.
Here is the link to the verse where you can read it in Greek.
biblehub.com...
The "made known" part is also in the Aorist tense, meaning it is an imperfect verb, which is not just in the past, like I said earlier about the verb "to hear".
edit on 28-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 04:42 AM
link   

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus came to preach his gospel, yet died before he could say everything he needed to say. Proof of this is in all of Paul's epistles. Why would Jesus not teach Paul's message while on Earth, and why would he choose one of his persecutors to finish his message?

Also, if Paul's message is really Jesus', then how do you explain most, if not all of it being absent from the gospels?


John 15
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.


Peter was present when Jesus was saying this, so that means that Peter learned everything Jesus had to say while traveling with him. Why then, is Paul's message not in the gospels when the Gospel of Mark was a recounting of Peter's memory?

Why would Peter neglect to mention anything in Paul's message when it is considered to be some of the most important information in the bible?

Remember, Jesus told his apostles EVERYTHING he learned from his Father, so I find it strange that Paul was even needed and why the message Paul taught isn't seen until his epistles.

So, why did Jesus supposedly need Paul when he already told Peter everything he knew? And why is Paul's doctrine nowhere to be found in Mark, which is based on Peter's own words?
edit on 27-8-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


Why did 3NLIGHT get everything wrong in this His OP? I have the answer. God reveals Himself to those
who love Him. God's wisdom is given to you when you show Him love instead of disrespect and disbelief.

End times are here 3NL, pray, tell Our Lord you wish to find Him, He will help you.

Every day in the Religion forum, several let us mock God and deny Him threads. Has to be for attention?



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 06:11 AM
link   
There is a grand purpose and plan to why Apsotle Paul came to continue spreading the Gospel just as why Jesus came after Moses. Why didn't God just send Jesus first? It was all in preparation for when the minds of men could begin to understand God.

God had chosen Paul for also a very special reason. Unlike the others diciples, he was before completely against the faith and never mentored personally by Jesus. He was so "bad" even the Priest who God sent him to wanted nothing to do with him. Like all the other characters in the Bible, they represent something more than just a story, they are a timeless mirror to us. Are we like Job where God himself can proudly say to Satan "have you considered my servant Job, there is none like him." Are we a Jesus to others by being a light to their world? Can we be an Paul where we can completely turn our life around from a sinner to a serving saint him? God wanted to show us an example that he can take the least and make them the greatest. Just as Paul never met the person Jesus but could "turn around," so can we too turn around when the light "blinds us" this glorious gospel which is the understanding of it comes to us.

Yes Paul said that a man named Paul lived once but not anymore Christ lives. That's because he had died off the thinking of Paul (the carnal mind) and now had taken the thinking of God (the spiritual mind), the Christ Mind. He like Jesus passed this thinking onto others and to this day is not stoppped. If you understand the hidden wisdom spoken by Apostle Paul (1st Corn:2v7) you will find no contradiction to what Jesus taught.
edit on 28-8-2013 by TheBrother because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-8-2013 by TheBrother because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-8-2013 by TheBrother because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 07:22 AM
link   
ive tangled with englightened in a couple other threads.....he just likes to stir the pot and get people in an uproar. I think anyone with an ounce of discernment can see quite easily hes not interested at all in solving any biblical quandaries....therefore his posts are an exercise in futility and pseudo intellectual babble. Dont take him seriously.


enlightened....if youre against semantics then youre against making sense of words and their definitions....which must put you in the camp of those who have abandoned literal meaning of anything, which means you are a fool.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 08:11 AM
link   
reply to post by instigatah
 



ive tangled with englightened in a couple other threads.....he just likes to stir the pot and get people in an uproar. I think anyone with an ounce of discernment can see quite easily hes not interested at all in solving any biblical quandaries....therefore his posts are an exercise in futility and pseudo intellectual babble. Dont take him seriously.


enlightened....if youre against semantics then youre against making sense of words and their definitions....which must put you in the camp of those who have abandoned literal meaning of anything, which means you are a fool.

He's the "fool"? Seems to me he's studying and trying to figure out the ridiculous puzzle that is "the Bible".

Why is it you "haters" don't show up in the Muslim threads, or the Fundie threads, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster threads, or Pagan threads?(oh, wait. You DO show up in the Pagan threads and call them all demons bound for hell). But, why never in the Muslim threads? Are you afraid of them?

THIS FORUM IS FOR DISCUSSION OF ALL RELIGIONS, FAITHS, AND THEOLOGIES.

Literalist Christians are considered by MANY to be gullible, unintelligent, ignorant fools. Watch yourself, little sister. Lest ye be judged. :shk:

"Semantics" and "translation issues" are paramount to understanding. You're so perfect?? - then go handle a poisonous serpent and drink some hemlock and get back to us.
(Oh, and btw, your parenting as you describe it elsewhere - which is how I determined you are a female - is lacking in common sense.)
edit on 28-8-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 08:14 AM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


You do realize that Jesus did appear to his disciples several times AFTER his death... perhaps he finished his message then. Jesus IS the word according to John 1:1, and the word IS perfect. Jesus is incapable of making mistakes because he was God in the flesh. Any reservations you have regarding his message stem from YOU misunderstanding the written word. If you are getting your opinion from reading any other version of the Bible than the Authorized KJV then you will find contradictions and mistakes, because every other version (NIV, NLT, NKJV, ESV et al...) are gross perversions of the original, perfect word of God.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 08:18 AM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 

I get what you're saying, and from a reincarnationist view, it makes as much sense as anything else.

I have come to believe over time, as the brainwashing has worn off, the whole bible was taken from original sources, and re-written to fit the needs of an up and coming race of people known today as Jews. Then it was retro-fitted with whatever was needed as time went on.

I think Jesus, being the smart man he was, used what was there, to bring a different message, but one familiar enough to the Jews that he wouldn't be run out of the country before he completed his mission.

In essence, you could say the whole bible(minus embellishments) is an allegory of a belief system that has been here since mans inception on this planet. Or in this dimension. Whichever you prefer.

I think those who take all religions, and look at their commonalities, are on the right track to understanding the root all of this came from. Trying to take one or the other independently, is like reading the first, middle, and last chapter of a book, but never the whole thing.

Just my thoughts.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 08:33 AM
link   
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 


If you are getting your opinion from reading any other version of the Bible than the Authorized KJV then you will find contradictions and mistakes, because every other version (NIV, NLT, NKJV, ESV et al...) are gross perversions of the original, perfect word of God.

Hi Optimus.
Many people consider the KJV to be corrupted/questionable.
The Debate Over the King James Version

King James supporters note that the New Testament manuscripts began to be altered very soon after they were written.

Eusebius, the ancient church historian, reported that heresies sprang up early after the turn of the second century, and proponents of these heresies sometimes altered Scripture to accord with their beliefs.(16) Thus, antiquity is not the crucial test. That there are no copies older than the fourth century can be explained by the fact that the material manuscripts were written on was fragile; it's reasonable to conclude that the early copies probably wore out through frequent handling.

Summary and Concluding Thoughts

To summarize, those who support the King James/Received Text tradition emphasize the number of manuscripts, the church's history with the Byzantine text, and God's interest in preserving His Word, whereas those following Westcott and Hort say that the variants in the manuscripts - even between those in the Byzantine family - prove the need for the textual criticism of the New Testament.

The results of their analysis along with the ages of the manuscripts leads them to believe that the Byzantine family is just one text family that can lead us back to the originals - or close to it - but it is not the one best text family.

So, which way should you go on this debate? If you are concerned about the issue, I suggest that you study it more. The texts cited in the notes will give you a place to start. If not, I would recommend using a version that is as close to the Greek text as possible while being understandable to you.

But whichever version you choose, be very sure of your arguments before insisting that others use it, too. It seems to me that, with all the difficulties we face in our often hostile culture, we should not erect walls between Christians on the basis of Bible versions. We are not taking God's Word lightly here. We are simply calling for a more well-reasoned discussion and for the rule of love to govern the debate.


edit on 28-8-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 09:16 AM
link   
reply to post by spartacus699
 



the better question is why do atheists expect all Christians to be Bible scholars

It's your faith. You believe it's the infallible word of god. I would think you would want to learn everything you could about it. I would definitely expect you to know it at least as well as I do.



(and the answer is simply that Christians, have faith, that's why we don't need to be bible scholars)

Matthew 15:14

14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”




But what's weirder even is how Atheists become bible scholars to hopefully find holes in Christianity in a pathetic hope to be right so they can justify their existence and hopefully in that truly pathetic way, give themselves hope that their's no afterlife and no hell.

I am no scholar. However, in my case, I studied the bible day and night for decades when I was a Christian. Because it was important to me. I didn't forget everything I knew and understood the moment I became a heathen.
Finding holes is the easy part. The bible is like Swiss cheese from that perspective. Pathetic is not putting out the effort to study and learn from the very word of god you tout so highly.
2 Timothy 2:15

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Most atheists who do study the bible, do so to understand it. Those whose motive is simply to use it as a weapon, stick out like sore thumbs, because it takes years of study to understand many of the tenets of doctrine in the bible. A few months, and some google searches isn't going to cut it. Their ignorance will shine like the sun.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 09:57 AM
link   
I think Jesus's message is pretty simple, weaved into parables and preaching. Love one another, work hard, choose to do no harm to another. I was raised Southern Baptist and have never understood why christians want to make his message so complicated. But then, there would be no need for theology schools if it were accepted as that simple.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 10:31 AM
link   
reply to post by colbe
 


reply to post by instigatah
 


Neither one of you even attempted to address the question. Good job.

You attacking me personally goes to show your own insecurities about your faith. Attack the subject, not the person.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 10:33 AM
link   
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


I don't agree with you that Jesus preached an incomplete message.

He preached The WORD.

Paul never added anything beyond what Jesus had already instructed. Paul wrote about his own experience and development in Spirit. Peter, too, never added anything. They were both teaching according to The Teachings of Jesus.

Part of Jesus' Teachings were delivered after He had risen, but they were showing how we can receive in the Spirit from God; through dreams and prophesy, as well as Scripture.

I believe that God chose Paul (yes God Himself) in the same way that He chose Moses. Moses had killed an Egyptian prior to his burning bush vision. Paul had held the coats of murderers of Stephen.

I believe God is showing the strength of His healing by changing men and women from something bad to something good.

It is nonsense to call Paul a fraud. If Paul is a fraud then the whole of gentile Christianity is, too, because that comes from Paul. I love all the writings of Paul because it shows me the human quality. Paul was a very anxious man and he puts The Holy Spirit within human reach. He is very honest about his feelings, very candid. He brings the Spirit into the world.

Jesus even said that people after him would do even greater things than Him, in His name.

I think you are trying to drive a wedge and create disharmony by suggesting Jesus WORD was incomplete. It is all just as God wished it to be. Jesus did all that He was told to do.

Daniel said that The Messiah would be cut off early and would seem to have achieved little. There will of course be the return of The King.


edit on 28-8-2013 by Revolution9 because: clarification



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 10:40 AM
link   
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 


So if Jesus appeared to his disciples after resurrecting and taught them everything then, where is it in the gospels? Paul's doctrine is nowhere to be found until he wrote his first epistle a whole 20 years after Jesus' crucifixion.

Also, every bible tells the same story, so if one is wrong all of them are wrong. Unless you can find Paul's message within the gospels of the KJV of the bible, your argument isn't valid.

All versions of the bible tell the exact same story, and you saying other versions are corrupt is you admitting god's word can be corrupted, leaving the possibility that it's not god's word at all.



posted on Aug, 28 2013 @ 10:53 AM
link   
reply to post by Revolution9
 


Thank you for the well thought out reply.

The reason I believe Paul was a fraud is simple, he contradicts Jesus on many occasions going as far as calling himself father when Jesus said not to call anyone father but God himself.



Matthew 23
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.



1 Corinthians 4
15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.


He says that Jesus is the God of both the living and the dead where Jesus says otherwise.


Luke 20
38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living




Romans 14
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.


Plus others. I will disagree that he preached Jesus' message because they are nothing alike.



new topics

top topics



 
7
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join